GAMA Documentary released by The Socialist Party and Framework Films

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77562
http://www.socialistparty.net/

I've never trusted anything with the Socialist Party (or any other political party) stamp on it so I'm going to give that movie a wide-berth. Reading the first half of the review the writer sounds like a member of the socialist party who is pretending not to be so as to draw in people like me who want nothing to do with that shower

Socialist party should be renamed the Protest bandwagon party. they have no pro-activity about them and they seem to base their mandate on whatever protest is popular at local level. Shower of muppets IMO
(P.S. I know joe higgins and Ruth Coppinger personally so I feel I'm qualified to make the above comment re their muppetry)

Well as a member (who also knows Joe and Ruth) I can tell you you are talking sh't.
If you read the "What we stand for" column in our paper or on our website, you'll see there is more to our politics than "whatever protest is popular".
When the Gama story was broken (by ourselves I might add) it was far from popular and we were warned to give it a wide berth that we'd never get anywhere with it, but we persevered and won.
And I can categorically say that the person who wrote the article, in their preamble shows a sufficient lack of knowledge of our political ideology for me to say that they are not a party member.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Socialist party should be renamed the Protest bandwagon party. they have no pro-activity about them and they seem to base their mandate on whatever protest is popular at local level. Shower of muppets IMO
(P.S. I know joe higgins and Ruth Coppinger personally so I feel I'm qualified to make the above comment re their muppetry)

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I'm also guessing by the bitterness of your comments you are a member of one of the other Parties in the area. My first Guess would be you are a memeber of Labour and a supporter of Joan Burton (as that is similar to the ill informed tripe she comes out with when commenting on our party). Failing that I'd say you are a shinner. Care to comment?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I'm also guessing by the bitterness of your comments you are a member of one of the other Parties in the area. My first Guess would be you are a memeber of Labour and a supporter of Joan Burton (as that is similar to the ill informed tripe she comes out with when commenting on our party). Failing that I'd say you are a shinner. Care to comment?

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Are u nuckin futs what bohs fan would support Joan "NIMBY" Burton
and Yes I'm an EX Shinner. but had this opinion of Higgins and Coppinger long before my brief foray into local poliitics with SF. if its any consolation in local elections id vote for either Joe or Ruth before that tool McDonald

Does the documentary cover the fact that the Socialist Partys "brothers" in the brickies union BATU took a High Court challenge to the Registered Employment Agreement which meant the agreed rates in the industry could not be legally enforced thereby allowing GAMA to pay under the agreed rates?

Does the documentary also cover the numerous written complaints from contractros going back several years who were complaining that GAMA were securing contracts based on them paying their employees substantially below the agreed rates?

All of this was known in the industry for several years, Joe Higgins just got wind of it and used Dail privlege to make his accusations.

Hyprocricy just makes me sick from these people. BATU (a union closely linked with the Socalist Party) cause the sitaution and their political party then act the hero's in sortng it out. Socialism just another "ism".

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Originally Posted by rebs23

Does the documentary cover the fact that the Socialist Partys "brothers" in the brickies union BATU took a High Court challenge to the Registered Employment Agreement which meant the agreed rates in the industry could not be legally enforced thereby allowing GAMA to pay under the agreed rates?

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Ah the old myth of us "controlling" BATU of course made up by a SIPTU official with ties to the Labour Party.
On the other point GAMA had no legal fallback. That was proven by the outcome of the case.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

Does the documentary also cover the numerous written complaints from contractros going back several years who were complaining that GAMA were securing contracts based on them paying their employees substantially below the agreed rates?

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Yes it does. Whats your point? The contractors in question couldn't get proof of this. We did.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

All of this was known in the industry for several years, Joe Higgins just got wind of it and used Dail privlege to make his accusations.

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So what are you saying? It was a bad thing that Joe exposed the scandal in the Dail? The fact that it was common knowledge and still GAMA had a position on the Building Trade Federation executive (or whatever its called) and the Dublin Chamber of Commerce speaks volumes.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

Socialism just another "ism".

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If you are speaking in linguistic terms you are correct, otherwise the above statement is devoid of meaning (but I bet you think its very clever).

Does this sound like something from a Party that controlls BATU;
From THE SOCIALIST (Paper of the Socialist Party) May 2005

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Originally Posted by The Socialist

Union leaders fail GAMA workers

Besides the notable exception of the GAMA strikers, the Dublin Council of Trades Unions May Day March was a shocking indictment of the trade union leaders. It is ironic while the GAMA strikers made the May Day March in Dublin worthwhile for some left and union activists, have not been given the solidarity they needed from the tops of the unions in the construction industry.

The majority of GAMA workers have been in SIPTU for many years. Their lack of serious action on behalf of these workers has been disgraceful and is clearly recognised by the GAMA workers themselves. Around 40 GAMA carpenters were signed up to the Building and Allied Trades Union (BATU) early on in the strike with a real expectation, given the traditions of BATU that they would get serious backing from that union. Rank and file activists in both unions gave very important support and assistance. But in the make or break task of influencing Irish workers on the GAMA sites to take solidarity action in support of the GAMA workers, particularly at Tynagh, and in trying to force suppliers to stop deliveries to GAMA sites, SIPTU and BATU unfortunately did very little.

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Joe Higgins was on a BATU picket line earlier this year in the Collen Dispute. The Socialist Party have continually supported a trade union that has campaigned against the Registered Agreement for the last 10 years, the agreement which provides for agreed rates and conditions of employment far in excess of that available in other industries. Never stated that the Socialist Party controlled BATU. BATU can't even control themselves.

My point is that the Socialist Party continually state (including a review in the E.Echo) that they exposed GAMA. Joe Higgins said as much in an RTE News bulletin at the time. The fact is that Irish Contractors exposed GAMA and went on reccord to the Dept of Enteprise Trade and Employment of their concerns about the rates of pay within GAMA years beforehand.

GAMA never held any position within the builders federation, never heard they were members of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

Delighted the whole issue was eventually covered by the media but don't turn around and claim it was all your doing and then deny and cover up the fact that a trade union BATU (the smallest trade union in the construction industry) which always get support from the Socialist Party, was at serious fault in the whole affair by initiating a campaign and legal process which legally allowed contractors to pay rates below those agreed between the CIF and ICTU.

As I said already it makes me sick that BATU (a union closely linked with the Socalist Party) cause the sitaution and the Socialist party then act the hero's in "sortng it out."

As for socialism, it's dead, the Berlin wall is gone, the gulags are gone, castro is gone. I have a passionate hatred of it.

Joe Higgins supports Trade Union disputes. The Socialist Party also criticises trade unions when we feel they are making mistakes or bad decisions. This is shown in the above article I posted.
Building contracters "exposed" nothing. They had suspiscions which they couldn't prove. Their suspicions were based on the fact that GAMA were able to undercut everyone by several thousand. However there was no proof. Cllr. Mick Murphy and the South county dublin branch of the Socialist Party did the ground work that turned up the evidence to expose GAMA. All the while the Socialist Party were being critisised for investigating GAMA from every other councillor on SDCC and official trade union circles. The Labour Party Mayor Robert Dowds went on the record as saying that GAMA had no case to answer.
The basic fact is that if it wasn't for Joe Higgins, Mick Murphy and the Socialist Party, the Turkish workers would never have got their money and this would still be going on in GAMA.
Maybe you should watch the DVD or at least read the pamphlet before you try criticising it.
As for your comments on Socialism they are ill informed. There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.

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Originally Posted by Socialist Party

Lenin's prediction of revolutionary turmoil throughout Europe after imperialist world war and the Russian revolution proved correct. Unfortunately all these attempts to overthrow capitalism were unsuccessful due partly to the revolutionary workers' mistakes and inexperience, but mainly due to betrayals by the leaders of the European socialist parties and trades unions.

This failure was not however pre-ordained; the outcome could only be determined during the struggle itself and, particularly in Germany, the situation was on a knife-edge. Nevertheless, the result was that the world's first workers' state was left isolated and impoverished. This development allowed a layer of demoralised and corrupt bureaucrats to consolidate their position, because by this time, only the intervention of the international working class, with its democratic traditions, could have dislodged them.

The new bureaucratic caste's wiping out of the remnants of democratic workers' control of society was ultimately to lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union itself.

Colossal wastage

In the early 1920s Russia's new government were forced to re-introduce a widespread capitalist market to revive the economy from the devastation inflicted on it. This successfully boosted food production but also created a new class of rich farmers called kulaks.

Socialist opponents of Stalin, particularly Leon Trotsky, warned that the kulaks' economic power would eventually grow so much that they would threaten the regime. Stalin ignored this for years, but then panicked when danger was imminent in the late twenties and took drastic steps to transform Russia from a predominantly agricultural to an industrial society.

A five-year plan was introduced to build up heavy industry at breakneck speed and a programme of repression implemented to "liquidate the Kulaks as a class". The new line was given an ideological cover under the slogan of building "socialism in one country", which consciously rejected the internationalism that until then was at the heart of socialist thinking.

Much to Stalin's surprise, the drive to industrialise made spectacular gains. Growth targets were raised every few months as production exceeded the plan. Within a decade the Soviet Union was an industrial giant rivalling the capitalist powers.

How was this achieved? This transformation was unprecedented - capitalist countries had taken centuries of development to get to this point. The driving force in Russia was the plan of production itself; freed from the shackles of the market system, then in its deepest crisis after the Wall Street crash. There seemed no limit to growth.

The allocation of resources directly by the state planning body, rather than by the "hidden hand" of market forces, ensured a staggering pace of growth.

But the downside to the economic miracle was the huge wastage, up to 30% of production, due to the bungling, corruption and bad planning inherent in the undemocratic command system of economic management. The quality of goods was bad; Trotsky called poor quality the 'Achilles heel' of the planned economy.

The only way round this problem was to introduce a democratic system of control over production where consumers would have real power to ensure that the goods produced were both fit for purpose and made in the right quantities.

The re-introduction of the soviets on democratic lines would have achieved this, but Stalin would not contemplate such a course. Any vestige of democracy would have threatened his regime which, despite the surface calm, was unstable.

Much of the new infrastructure to support industry was built by armies of slave labour political prisoners, where millions perished due to the fiendish conditions imposed on them. The survivors of the camps and the super-exploited workers would have taken a swift revenge if Stalin had loosened the noose for a moment.

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We are clearly in disagreement. I wonder would that be allowed in "democratic workers socialist republic"?
Anyway is this forum now a vehicle for free adverticements for political parties or a discussion forum?

Well it certainly got a discussion going.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

We are clearly in disagreement. I wonder would that be allowed in "democratic workers socialist republic"?

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The answer to that question is yes.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.

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Trot alert

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

As for your comments on Socialism they are ill informed. There was nothing Socialist about the sprawling bureaucracies that controlled the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc or even the Castro bureaucracy. We consistantly called for workers democracy to overthrow these regimes though we opposed the return of capitalism.

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Well if "real" socialism is what your party stand for I want no part in it. Living on a working class estate I've never had one of your "activists" come within an asses roar of my door in my entire life.

I seem to remember Joe Higgins getting very upset when some upper middle class Dublin types had to pay for their bins though :rolleyes:

You lot would no sooner be inside the door of a coalition government and you'd sell out quicker than you can say the words "Labour Party".

Ireland's sorely needs a credible party of the Left. At the moment it sure as hell isn't you guys.

Anyone have any alternatives for me :confused:

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Well if "real" socialism is what your party stand for I want no part in it. Living on a working class estate I've never had one of your "activists" come within an asses roar of my door in my entire life.

I seem to remember Joe Higgins getting very upset when some upper middle class Dublin types had to pay for their bins though :rolleyes:

You lot would no sooner be inside the door of a coalition government and you'd sell out quicker than you can say the words "Labour Party".

Ireland's sorely needs a credible party of the Left. At the moment it sure as hell isn't you guys.

Anyone have any alternatives for me :confused:

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1. We've only a small branch in Limerick its quite young in age profile. We had a candidate in the last local elections for the first time her name is Aishling Golden. The Socialist Party was only founded in 1996. Before that we were a trotskyist group inside the Labour Party called the Millitant tendency (Millitant was the name of our paper in those days).

2. Er have you ever been to Corduff, Mulhuddart, Blanch, Clonsilla i.e. Joe's heartland and the heart of the anti-bintax and anti-watercharge campaigns? Upper Middleclass they certainly aren't! :rolleyes:

3. You know nothing about us or our history if you think we'd join a coalition. We wouldn't join a coalition with Chavez ffs never mind Enda Kenny. When Joe was on the Labour party executive he opposed coalition with FG. Our constitution prevents us from joining a coalition and our public representatives are legally bound to uphold that. They can only take the average industrial wage so selling out would have no benefit. Having been an activist for many years in the SP, I have to say our leading members are the most self sacrificing bunch of people you are likely to meet.

You should find out what we are really about as you obviously haven't a clue. I never understand why people try getting in a debate without first getting their facts straight.

http://www.socialistparty.net

This is the site of the international organisation we are affiliated to.

http://www.socialistworld.net/

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Originally Posted by Partizan

Trot alert

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Spot the Stalinist. :p

while im no fan of the SP/CWI and their neo unionist ways, Limtillidie is at least 10 yards offside saying Joe Higgins represents the upper middle classes and I think the SP are very explicit about coalitions with FF &FG.

you dislike the left, fine, but get somewhere approaching the facts mate.

I think the far left is dead in Ireland for now. Would need the effective end of full employment to get people back into socialism.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. Full employment is one thing but the number of low paid jobs is sky-rocketing while the cost of stuff is also going up. Having said that I agree that Ireland in the current situation is difficult terrain for building the left. However I would posit that it is not as treacherous as it was in the mid ninetees.

I wouldn't disagree that many low paid jobs in this country but people are not supposed to work in them for ever.

I noticed last week that something like 30,000 unemployed people in the 18-25 year old bracket & 150,000 total. Obviously some people will be in between jobs but there is no reason for 30,000 unemployed young people.