State of the Nation

Fianna Fáil won 81 seats in the 2002 General Election, ending up 2 short of an overall majority in government. As a result, the Progressive Democrats were called upon to help form the new coalition. The question I ask is how better/worse off would we be, if FF ruled the country alone?

Under a one-party administration;

• Would the extra Gardaí that FF promised, have arised?
• Would sufficient measures have been taken to significantly reduce the rate of crime?
• Would there have been tougher jail sentences for convicted criminals?
• Waiting lists were promised to be abolished. Today, hospital patients still lie on trolleys awaiting treatment, with apparantly no significant improvements since the last election. Under single-party rule, would it have been different?
• Would there have been the improvement required in infrastructure, in all areas?
• Would the high number of road accidents have been reduced to an extent?
• Would there have been more foreign investment in the country instead of elsewhere?
• Would Abbottstown have been built?
• Would our policies towards our immigrant community be different?
• Would the government have avoided a pounding in the local/European elections since?
• If Harney, McDowell & co not got their foot in the door with FF, would we all have been better off?
  
  
• Do you think the status quo will remain next time?

Should be a good thread. Let's see. :)

FF are too arrogant to let govern on their own. Without the PDs Bertie wouldn't have a convenient sacpegoat. Often the issues FF voters get mad about are the ones PD votes rally around.

If FF annoy the unions they will blame the PDs who will gain extra votes from their constituency.

FF are incompetent, but are they more incompetent than the alternative? Most of the hot issues at the moment (health, transport) are down to vested interests, which will continue to exist no matter which party is in government. FF also have some very able ministers, especially since they farmed off McCreevy.

The PDs are solid and do what they say. I broadly concur with them on a lot of issues, but experience from other countries tells us we should be suspicious of wholeheartedly embracing free-market economics (though it still has a major part to play here - CIE, etc.)

I would like to see the Greens get a go in government, if only to see what they'd be able to do, however I'm a little put off them by their substantial lunatic fringe and hostility to the EU.

I'm also suspicious of Labour's luny fringe and the tax and spend mantra.
I'd consider emigrating if SF were offered a place in govt, but I don't see it happening.

Yet the FF-PD govt did bring in the smoking ban and the plastic bag levy, which are two of the most progressive policie the state ever introduced. Is 10 years too long to stay in government? What about 15? I don't know. Perhaps a FF-PD-Green govt would be suitable next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crc

I'd consider emigrating if SF were offered a place in govt, but I don't see it happening.

---

I agree I would also emigrate if SF got into power. If I wanted to live in a country ruled by thugs I'd move to the Ukraine or somewhere similar:rolleyes: at least the local talent would be worth seeing :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crc

Yet the FF-PD govt did bring in the smoking ban and the plastic bag levy, which are two of the most progressive policie the state ever introduced.

---

It must be pointed out, however, that the bag charge was brought in before the last GE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mypost

It must be pointed out, however, that the bag charge was brought in before the last GE.

---

The bin tax is a joke. Does anyone really believe that all shops are passing the levy over to the state? Some shops charge for the bags & some don't.

I was amazed the smkoing ban brought given FFs ties to the Publicans.

If nothing else FF should be kicked out of government to loosen the grip on the government from vested interests. Its amazing how unelected people have so much say in how this country is run - trade unions, property developers etc...

Great idea for a thread mypost - see FF are up in the Sunday Business Post polls this morning.
As the old git in Foot.ie, it's great to see so many young people here so articulate and knowledgeable about current affairs - sorry if that appears patronising - I know I learn much here everyday. God's truth.
However, what does concern me is that with the media so pervasive in our society today, we have a kind of "bread and circuses" situation - huge TV audiences for reality shows etc and a large youth population with no interest in voting, politics, community participation etc.
It appears to me that Foot.ie members are an important, intelligent and active minority - but, sadly, a minority nonetheless. Look at the low turnouts in elections:(
Give all the excellent points mypost raised in his opening posts, how can more young people be energised to take a more active role in society??
I know the above is the usual - and apologies - bland commentary.
It annoys me when I hear soundbites from folks on TV news like "What are the politicians doing for us?" or "No one gives a damn about us" - there seems to be a very passive attitude around.
In the late 60s and late 80s - the two soccer booms - quite a few people got up off their butts and made things happen - building new grounds, facilities, forming extra teams etc - that seems to be dying away a bit and it's the same people involved in running everything now and it appears that - whatever the sport - committees have an grown older too. That's only the football example and I guess it's the same for St. Vincent de Paul, Hospital fund raising groups and any other category I can think of.
Anyone got ideas??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete

Its amazing how unelected people have so much say in how this country is run - trade unions, property developers etc...

---

i broadly agree, but trade unions arent unelected....??? someone tell the membership
representitives of organisations in partnership is a different proposition to gruppy property speculators surely?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

i broadly agree, but trade unions arent unelected....??? someone tell the membership

---

They are not elected by the public. Unions get a say in "social partnership" dispite representing a significant minority in this country. If yout take out the public employees they don't speak for anyone in the private sector. Without the private sector would be no one left to pay public sectors wages.

Reading a lot about unions on the US blogs and the decline of the auto industry and outsourcing etc. There's a ferocious arguments about whether unions are to blame but, I mean, waht can a union do when the company "outsources" to Mexico (happened too to Square D in Beeslow - company moved to Mexico and opened up the Square D factory there the same week Bertie Aherne visited it).
Trouble is when you outsource all the good paying jobs to cheaper countries, the products still have to be imported and then - who's gonna be able to pay for these products when most new US jobs are poorly paid - hairdressers, McJobs etc. The US middle class - the bedrock of the US economy - is being hammered at the moment and the unions have little influence in the matter.
It's going to happen here too - sooner or later - in some similar form.
I mean, what kind of role CAN the unions play here**??:confused:

**Accepting the fact that there are good unions and poorly run unions.

If you don't like the present government and your friends and family don't like them either and you would prefer the alternative then your choice is clear. GET EVERYONE YOU KNOW OUT TO VOTE AGAINST THE FF/PD AT THE NEXT ELECTION!

It is the people who cannot be arsed to vote , and then give out about the government I have absolutely no time for. #
And under PR/STV your vote does count and can make a difference. Dick Spring once got a seat by 4 votes. Kathy Sinnott was denied one by less than 10.

It's the people that did not turn out to vote at all , who were morally responsible for the Nazis getting elected in Germany in the early 1930's. And if a similar fate was to befall this country( i.e. an unrepresentative bunch of thugs got elected into power) it would be the non-voting public who would be responsible for it.

After all for evil to prosper all it takes is for a large number of good people to do nothing!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirhamish

What can a union do when the company "outsources" to Mexico (happened too to Square D in Beeslow - company moved to Mexico and opened up the Square D factory there the same week Bertie Aherne visited it).
Trouble is when you outsource all the good paying jobs to cheaper countries, the products still have to be imported and then - who's gonna be able to pay for these products when most new US jobs are poorly paid - hairdressers, McJobs etc. The US middle class - the bedrock of the US economy - is being hammered at the moment and the unions have little influence in the matter.
It's going to happen here too - sooner or later - in some similar form.
I mean, what kind of role CAN the unions play here**??:confused:

**Accepting the fact that there are good unions and poorly run unions.

---

Your points are very well made Hamish. The World economy will collapse when the so called First World employees in poorly paid jobs are not able to afford the products produced in Mexico and the like for slave wages , because the wages for the mickey mouse employment available to us will collapse. And of course in this country there will be a huge backlash against immigrants and I for one will no longer want to live here ! :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Your points are .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...................................... will no longer want to live here ! :(

---

The Yanks are beginning to cop that too CTID - the Middle Class is getting hammered there right now.

I see J. Kenneth Kilbraith died today - by coincidence he has an article in Information Clearing House today on this very subject.

The Predator State

Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government?

By James K. Galbraith

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12880.htm

Extract
In the mixed-economy America I grew up in, there existed a post-capitalist, post-Marxian vision of middle-class identity. It consisted of shared assets and entitlements, of which the bedrock was public education, access to college, good housing, full employment at living wages, Medicare, and Social Security. These programs, publicly provided, financed, or guaranteed..................
.....................These middle-class institutions survive in America today, but they are frayed and tattered from constant attack.

This may be the US example but it applied as much to Ireland as well.......we're going down the same road.

As for people not voting, CTID, agree with you totally but many of the young haven't a clue, sadly, of the significance of voting, elections, health care etc. - all the matters mypost raised - Honest to God, these matters sail over their heads as if they didn't exist.

I was reading the latest edition of Private Eye last night and there's a part in it each fortnight about quiz show answers called "Dumb Britain".
This from The Big Quiz on LBC 97.3
Gary King: Which singing diva had a UK number one hit in the 19602 called 'Respect'?
Contestant: George Galloway.....................:D
Gary King: What's the main ingredient of a Molotov Cockail?
Contestant: "Vodka"??

The above could apply to Ireland as well.
Do they still teach Civics in school these days??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete

Does anyone really believe that all shops are passing the levy over to the state? Some shops charge for the bags & some don't.

---

My dad, who owns a newsagents, stopped using plastic bags altogether within a year of the tax. People stopped taking plastic bags almost entirely overnight whereas before they would gluttonously take them for nothing. A good measure by whoever put it forward. You see tonnes of people going around using those permenent bags sold by the supermarkets now instead of hording and wasting plastic bags they don't need.

Before mypost hits me a slap I'll try and stay on thread. I feel that it's a good thing to have more than one party in power - can curb the excesses of the larger party.
FFS - FF and Jack Lynch brought out a budget in the late 70s that was was nearly suicidal for the country. I remember it only too well.

I'd love to the see the Greens become part of a coalition - but would they have much of an influence???

To tell you the truth, mypost, looking at your excellent list, would it have been any different with just a FF government.
Very little in any category I'd say.

We urgently need decent sports facilities. Abbottstown was effectively destroyed by the PD's, who detest spending money. We have an out-of-her-depth Health Minister, and a completely incompetent Justice Minister. Entire communities seem to be completely out-of-control, and his laws are not worth the paper they're written on. Both ministers are PD's. Road infrastructure is in a terrible state under this administration too.

Making comparisons with the previous single-party rule are a bit wide of mark, as we are far richer now and Ireland has developed considerably as a nation since then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mypost

We urgently need decent sports facilities. Abbottstown was effectively destroyed by the PD's, who detest spending money. We have an out-of-her-depth Health Minister, and a completely incompetent Justice Minister. Entire communities seem to be completely out-of-control, and his laws are not worth the paper they're written on. Both ministers are PD's. Road infrastructure is in a terrible state under this administration too.

Making comparisons with the previous single-party rule are a bit wide of mark, as we are far richer now and Ireland has developed considerably as a nation since then.

---

Amen to your first paragraph mypost - I blame Bertie too for shafting Eircom Park.

Sometimes history does teach us, though, regardless of the economic circumstances, that when one party wins a huge majority, arrogance and an almost Messanic devotion to holding power, will result in ludicrous decisions. I rememeber car tax being abolished that time but we were penalised in other ways.

I do agree with you about the PDs TBH. I mean, what changes DID the PDs actually bring about when you think about it? They may have curbed some of the usual FF excesses but, as you said, what did their Ministers achieve in their offices?? Fcuk all.
I'd still be very afraid of a FF only government given the past. There are still a lot of cowboys in that party - Donie Cassidy for example. According to a local paper here he's in danger of losing his seat. No loss.

I think the health issue is crucial. I got a "double" MRI scan a few weeks ago in Portiuncula and had to shell out 450 euros because messing between the VHI and the Health Authority meant that the former will only cover you if you go to the Bon Seceur in Galway city. Needless to say, I wasn't told about this beforehand or I'd have made the obvious arrangements.
Speaking to folks in Portiuncula, the entire health service is in a total mess and disenchantment is rife.
Maybe the consultants are part of the problem but the massive amount of unecessary beaucracy is one thing Harney could do something about. We also have nurses now doing fcuk all "on the spot" training as I've noticed myself having spent much hospital time in the last few years. The Health Boards are also mostly a freebie for local TDs and politicians - again, Harney does nothing and a FF government would do nothing either - they'd be afraid to upset the local voting fodder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete

They are not elected by the public. Unions get a say in "social partnership" dispite representing a significant minority in this country. If yout take out the public employees they don't speak for anyone in the private sector. Without the private sector would be no one left to pay public sectors wages.

---

they represent many more people than anyone else in partnership!

union representation runs at a higher rate of the workforce than the rate of participation in elections.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

I agree I would also emigrate if SF got into power. If I wanted to live in a country ruled by thugs I'd move to the Ukraine or somewhere similar:rolleyes: at least the local talent would be worth seeing

---

No you wouldn't ! :D

I've no desire to see SF in power the Republic, but the aul "I'll leave the country if..." pronouncements are always a load of ballax.

The English media was full of them from rich celebrities saying they'd leave Britain if Labour beat the Tories in 1997. Not one of them did (sadly), even though they could afford to.

I'll wager you don't emigrate solely in response to any power-sharing arrangement involcing SF. Only a small one though, as I don't want to give you the financial incentive to leave... :)

I dont know very much about ROI party politics but was always curious to see if people down south think that a coalition of 2 parties ideas brings a positive influence governing politics and policies.