Printable View
Suprised it hasn't popped up aleady here but did anyone else think Mr. Rabbite was playing the race card in his call for a review of immigration policy and work permits of both EU and Non EU workers.
Seems if any other politician (eg Mr. McDowell) made such propouncements they would have rightly been condemed for making racist remarks.
Indeed michael McDowell has been called worse for less!
I don't think he is playing the race card. Manouvering for more robust employment law that's equitable for ALL workers in this country regardless of nationality as we move into the new partnership talks is a more likely bet I'd say.
Though I take your point that Michael McDowell would be taken to t'fcuking cleaners if he said something similar.
Playing the union card more like (as we should expect from the labour party), as SIPTU and ICTU followed up in support of his call to look at the options.
The fact that labour inspections are down, and GAMA can still get public contracts, on top of Irish Ferries hardly a surprise that these issues need looking at.
Minimum wage doesn't mean that foreign workers aren't getting paid below the going rate, or with worse terms and conditions - bad for the foreign workers, bad for Irish workers, good for IBEC and their unscrupulous members.
Personally, I think a vastly increased labour inspectorate, with powers to seize documents a la CAB is the route to go rather than to restrict movement of workers.
Don't worry Rabbitte will be taken to the cleaners - by the electorate. Labour are going to be in serious trouble at the next election. Aligning themselves with FG will do them no favours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
This plus his recent pronouncements make little sense - immigration, partition etc - instead of trying to cultivate the left wing vote he has abandoned all pretence of a left wing party and will suffer big time at the ballot box.
Labour/FG won't be in a position to form a government and Rabbitte will have to resign before they can begin talks with FF.
Anyway, all of this is the inevitable consequence of the Stickies takeover of Labour.
KOH
Agreed Macy. If the laws we had were only enforced, if there was a compliance culture and if a couple of loopholes were closed off (like avoiding paying minimum wage to so-called "trainees" -who never get past trainee status) we'd be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Not going to happen under the current Government - Labour and FG for all their faults aren't as pro business as either of the current Government Parties, and we'll be worse than the yanks if we put either of the current incumbents back into power again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Whatever about Labour I hear nothing from Fine Gael that inspires me to think they'd do a damn thing different to Fianna Fail. Might as well make their election catchphrase "same sh1t -different suits"
FF/PD government will never appoint more inspectors or enforce current employment laws. FF are basically be run/funded by the Developers who are the real winner in the Celtic Tiger. The construction industry hasn't had a downturn in the last 10 years & no sign of in the future.
From what i've heard its well known that minimum wage laws are been broken in the construction trade. The agency that recruites the foreign labour may be getting paid the minimum wage for each worker but debatable what the foreign worker gets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
WAR, dont worry, Rabbitte and his ilk did us in the WP a huge favour by walking out on us. Now we look on and laugh how they will **** up the Labour Party.
The Stickies are very much alive and well despite all the sh!t been thrown at us over the years from the Provos/INLA/ Eoghan Harris, armchair republicans/Unionists etc.
Nail. Head. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
Irish politics has gotten so boring, I yearn for the days when SF wasnt run by Gmen, when FF was actually a party of the lower-middle class/working class, when Labour were socialists and well..FG are the same really, bless 'em. If it wasnt for Joe and a few crack pot Indi's it wouldnt be worth while
The vast majority of foreign and Irish construction workers earn sums of money far in excess of the average industrial wage. The CSO stats back this up.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Minimum rates in the construction industry start at roughly e14 for an adult worker. Most of the cases involving breeches of the min rates in the sector invovlve Irish workers. The vast majority of Foreign construction workers are
on rates far in excess of the national min wage and are paid in line with minimum rates in the sector. What the construction trade unions don't like is the fact that this influx of foreign craftsmen has reduced the pressure on rates in the industry and reduced their influence on the labour market. That is the real agenda.
There is no doubt but breeches of the registered rates are occuring but this is the exception not the rule.
How do we know, when there aren't enough inspections. If what you say is true, then IBEC and the CFI would have no problem with a huge increase in the number of inspections.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
Sorry for going off topic again but since we're on it Macy you're right, most contractors have been consistently calling for better compliance with the registered rates so there is a level playing pitch for everyone.
Is that yearning for something further down the road coz it's not been the scenario at any time in the past I can think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by SÓC
I think those days are on the way back to be honest. SF have cleaned up their act one hell of a lot (despite what the Independent group will tell you) The PDs will be roasted next time out and the government will be FF/Lab - without Rabbitte. And FG will continue to be the irrelevancy that they always have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by SÓC
Incidentally, I thought Dermot Ahern did a great job on Q&A last night, totally took the **** out of Rabbitte while managing to big up the possibilty of a FF/Lab. Rabbitte didn't know where to look.
KOH
Obviously you have more information than me but how does anyone really know what people paid if they paid through a recruiter/agency?Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
Saying that though the construction industry seems to one of the most tightly regulated which would probably explain the relatively high rates of pay for trade workers etc...
That's a myth. How did GAMA get away with it for so long? There simply aren't enough inspections or inspectors for us to know for sure, and the inspectors don't have enough power to get everything they need. ffs they couldn't even get their report published, and despite this no conditions were put on GAMA winning other public contracts.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
SF will still be a fringe party after the next election - though PR may offer them undue influence in a coalition.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
They'll stay fringe until they address their completely antiquated marxist-leaning economic policies. They don't need to lose the socialist ethic, but their policy definitely needs modernising to reflect the economic and business realities of this century.
The construction industry is probably the most regulated of all industries in Ireland in relation to rates of pay and conditions of employment. There are 3 Registered Agreements (National agreements registered in the Labour Court and therefore legally binding on everyone working in the industry) covering Wages and Conditions of employment, Pension and Sick Pay and the Electrical sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
The industry has mimum rates enforcable by the law starting at E13.48 for a GO with a minimum rate of E16.85 for a craftsman. If you are not getting paid those rates at least then as an employer you can be forced to pay those rates and all back monies. It is also the only industry where employees have to be in a Pension and Sick Pay Scheme for all GO's and Craftsmen. 80,000 are enrolled in this.
There are problems with enforcement but in most cases workers earn at least those amounts. Those that are self employed and on productivity rates earn far in excess of those amounts. The current average hourly rate(CSO Sep 05) for a Craftsman is nearly E21. The industry pays well.
The GAMA situation happened due to a number of factors including the belief of the Government that the Construction Industry was ripping off the tax payers of this country etc,etc. So they actively sought through Mary Harneys trade missions to attract Foreign construction companies. If you take it that the only variable on a construction project is labour, materials and other costs are relatively the same for everyone, then the only saving foreign construction companies could offer was through the rates they paid for labour. Everyone knew this and many Irish contractors said this to the Government. After they won several Gov Contracts Irish contractors went on record and questioned the compliance of GAMA with Registered Agreements etc but they were ignored. There wasn't a level playing pitch. It was several years later that Joe Higgins under Dail privelege said what everyone in the industry had known for years.
GAMA also exploited a loophole in relation to a High Court challenge taken by one of the smaller construction trade unions to the Registered Agreements. This meant that for over 7 years a construction trade union held up the registratrion of the min rates in the sector meaning that while everyone else was paying rates that were agreed, GAMA could in theory legally pay rates that were 7 years old. This case was settled in May 05 probably because the trde union comcerned were afraid of the consequences of being exposed as contributing to the GAMA scandal.
Maybe given GAMA's history of getting legal injunctions etc I should put in some provisio here that this is the belief within the industry as to what happened.
Under EU law and Competition Law it is almost impossible to stop GAMA from competing for contracts.