Bertie & the Catholic Church

I didn't like too much what Bertie had to say yesterday about the Catholic Church. We owe the church nothing after what they've done to so many through the years. They may have run the school system but it would have been run without them too - they just use it to brainwash people into Catholicism when they're young and impressionable. I think religion should be taken out of schools altogether but thats an argument for another day.

Bertie should be ashamed of himself for making those comments, especially in the wake of the Ferns Report.

More ammunition for the new Politics Forum ;)

The problem is that they own the land the schools are built on.

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Originally Posted by finlma

I didn't like too much what Bertie had to say yesterday about the Catholic Church. We owe the church nothing after what they've done to so many through the years. They may have run the school system but it would have been run without them too - they just use it to brainwash people into Catholicism when they're young and impressionable. I think religion should be taken out of schools altogether but thats an argument for another day.

Bertie should be ashamed of himself for making those comments, especially in the wake of the Ferns Report.

More ammunition for the new Politics Forum ;)

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they would have been run with out them are you sure about that ? . where would this money come from the goverment that couldnt afford it or the people that had no money to pay for it ?

thats all bertie was saying and come on 99 % of all priests were good people , its the higher ups like the bishops etc that should have stopped it instead of covering it up .

but now the church should be taken out of all schools all hospitals every goverment body , they should have absolutly no say in how the country is run in our laws anything , religion is a personal choice and there belives should nt be force opon me if i dont want them .

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

The problem is that they own the land the schools are built on.

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Donated by someone no doubt. It's not like they brought it out of their own funds. Only surprise they haven't bullied the donating families into signing over the land (as has happened to at least one family I know) so they can sell it off for houses.

It's a disgrace that there isn't a secular schooling system in this country. We're a secular country whether Catholic fundamentalists like Bertie want to see it or not. If anything the Catholic church has held us back, as opposed to Berties contention that it's helped us get us where we are.

Incidentally, was anyone listening to the last word last night? That Catholic organisation that is against telling kids to speak up if they feel they're abused? :rolleyes:

Jesus christ, wtf is happening, two days, two threads and twice agreeing with right wingers, first over ASBO's, and now with Luscious Liz's opening play to take over from Harney :eek: :D

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Originally Posted by Macy

Incidentally, was anyone listening to the last word last night? That Catholic organisation that is against telling kids to speak up if they feel they're abused? :rolleyes:

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what the hell i totally missed that , thats totally disgusting but comes as absolutly no surprise really :mad: .



is bertie an outcast from the church because he is seperated and living in sin with his new bird :rolleyes:

Could someone please tell me what they are spending the taxpayers money
on
1 The church basically owns/finances half the education system
300/320 primary schools
leaving the secondary schools to the government
2 Our Health service is on a par with Fallujha
The nuns used to be bitches but they kept it clean and ran it properly
3 Our transport system needs 9m a day for the next 15 years to bring it
into the 18th century

Does it suprise anyone Bertie is loving the church they will be back
running the country when we end up with an economy like we had
in the 80's
All the years of Celtic Tiger wasted

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Originally Posted by hoops1

1 The church basically owns/finances half the education system
300/320 primary schools
leaving the secondary schools to the government

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It doesn't, it controls them. Government funds the school building and the teachers, some parishioner probably donated the land (or the parishioners donated money to buy the land). Problem is the power the church has in our primary education system, and the lack of alternatives for people who don't want there children raised in a Catholic environment.

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Originally Posted by hoops1

2 Our Health service is on a par with Fallujha
The nuns used to be bitches but they kept it clean and ran it properly

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Very true hoops1 - have spent a lotta time in hospitals over the past 5 years and my local, Portiuncula, was run by the nuns until a few years ago. They were a pain allright BUT, since the Western Health Board took over, it's not nearly as well run.

We can all argue about whether nuns should have been involved in founding or running hospitals etc etc but it is an historical fact 'cos the governments of those days needed the clergy to run various institutions for a variety of reasons that we all know about - lack of finance, lack of drive and vision etc on various governments parts. Clergy were handy number to do the hard work and raise some of the money.

Macy's point above is also true. Governments did finance clergy run institutions but copped out of financing them totally and the priests and runs would put their wages back into the system to help fund things. (They took some money for their bodily needs etc) Also, laity fund raised for technical equipment for hospital theatres and so on.
It was/is two way thing. Government did a little, clergy do their bit.

Suited both parties since they were interlinked culturally in any case.

Religion has no place in schools. Children should be able to be taught religion by their own organisation after school hours. Maybe the church does own most of the land schools on but this doesn't mean it always has to be like that. Why didn't the state take some of that land in exchange for sweetheart deal over abuse compo payments?

I've heard that non Catholic children have to go to separate rooms while Cathlolic religion taught in primary schools. Primary teachers also have to pass a Catholic religion exam if they want to have any chance at getting a permanent post.

I think thats jumping the gun a bit taking religion out of schools. Of course it was wrong what happened but there are priests out there that have done nothing but the job they want to do and they are tarred with the same brush as the other scum bags.

Religion is a big part of Ireland and im proud that im a Catholic and im sure alot ofpeople rant and rave about being Catholic when Celtic play so why should it be any different now.

If a pedophile was found in a family you know you would disown the whole family.

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Originally Posted by Green Army Girl

I think thats jumping the gun a bit taking religion out of schools. Of course it was wrong what happened but there are priests out there that have done nothing but the job they want to do and they are tarred with the same brush as the other scum bags.

Religion is a big part of Ireland and im proud that im a Catholic and im sure alot ofpeople rant and rave about being Catholic when Celtic play so why should it be any different now.

If a pedophile was found in a family you know you would disown the whole family.

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I'd have to completely disagree. A 4 year doesn't know what religion they want to be and shouldn't be spoon fed catholicism. It should be up to the individual to decide when they are 18. The sad thing is - its hard to find a school if you're non-catholic. Religion has kept this country in the dark ages for long enough and its time for it to go from public schools, especially with the country becoming more multi-denominational.

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Originally Posted by finlma

I'd have to completely disagree. A 4 year doesn't know what religion they want to be and shouldn't be spoon fed catholicism. It should be up to the individual to decide when they are 18. The sad thing is - its hard to find a school if you're non-catholic. Religion has kept this country in the dark ages for long enough and its time for it to go from public schools, especially with the country becoming more multi-denominational.

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Your thought history in school and you are thought about how hard Irishmen fought for their country and when i was at school my history class was just a class on how to hate Britian. I dont hate Britian today (that much;) ) because i made up my own mind. A religion class informs us not pushes you into becoming a devoted Catholic

I agree our country is full of different races and religions so they bring there religion to our country so why should we try hide our religion from them. Muslim women wear burkhas around theirn face showing to people on the street that she is a muslim so why cant we show our religion in a classroom. Ireland changes to much to suit other countries thats why Dublin 6/7 years ago was a better place to be full of better prople

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Originally Posted by Green Army Girl

I think thats jumping the gun a bit taking religion out of schools. Of course it was wrong what happened but there are priests out there that have done nothing but the job they want to do and they are tarred with the same brush as the other scum bags.

Religion is a big part of Ireland and im proud that im a Catholic and im sure alot ofpeople rant and rave about being Catholic when Celtic play so why should it be any different now.

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Agree with your almost all your points....

I think it has made us the nation of people we are since the State was born and i am proud of that too. I think it is wrong to say we had have no need for the Catholic teaching in schools and people to try to take the high moral ground about where, historically, religion has come in our society annoy me as they are somewhat denying the country and society they were born in and it the same breath how the State was born and evolved. Sure society must change with the times but turning a system on it's head will not work.

There are bad apples in every walk of life so to conveniently open up the Catholic schools debate on the back of the Ferns Report is a tad out of proprtion, Liz!

Don't think Celtic should have been brought into it though!

Don't think Celtic should have been brought into it though![/QUOTE]

Point taken but it is a football site and thought it might bring the point home quicker as we all know the Celtic v Rangers story and know what it really stands for in religious terms and if this upset anyone sorry

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Originally Posted by finlma

I'd have to completely disagree. A 4 year doesn't know what religion they want to be and shouldn't be spoon fed catholicism. It should be up to the individual to decide when they are 18. .

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So how do you suggest we give children a healthy moral start in life/society if we leave them in the dark until they are 18 to decide.....I, for one, cannot begin to imagine the society we would find ourselves in if that was the way.

Human nature, being what it is, requires some sort of higher being to have faith of some description, any physcologists will tell you that so if wasn't Catholicism it would be something else and there would be a different queue forming with misgivings about that religion and it's place in society, schools etc...

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Originally Posted by Green Army Girl

Don't think Celtic should have been brought into it though!

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Point taken but it is a football site and thought it might bring the point home quicker as we all know the Celtic v Rangers story and know what it really stands for in religious terms and if this upset anyone sorry[/QUOTE]


Only pre-empting others really but driving the point home to some....I hear ya loud 'n' clear!:D

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Originally Posted by Green Army Girl

Your thought history in school and you are thought about how hard Irishmen fought for their country and when i was at school my history class was just a class on how to hate Britian. I dont hate Britian today (that much;) ) because i made up my own mind. A religion class informs us not pushes you into becoming a devoted Catholic

I agree our country is full of different races and religions so they bring there religion to our country so why should we try hide our religion from them. Muslim women wear burkhas around theirn face showing to people on the street that she is a muslim so why cant we show our religion in a classroom. Ireland changes to much to suit other countries thats why Dublin 6/7 years ago was a better place to be full of better prople

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you say our religion like ireland is a catolic country , im irish im a christian ( not catolic anymore )but i dont want in any way shape or form religion to either be taught in schools or have any effect on the laws of the land , ie divorce etc ..

how can any organisation that is so corrupt and goes against its own belives be alloud to influence any one in this country .

the whole structure of the church is against jesus's teachings he said no one man is more important than another yet the church has a higher archy :rolleyes: ,

the church are liars from the very top how can any one seriously go to church and take what they say to have any meaning .

every one knows the church has great and good priest's but since the vatican covered up the abuse then they are all accountable for not speaking out about it .

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Originally Posted by anto1208

you say our religion like ireland is a catolic country , im irish im a christian ( not catolic anymore )but i dont want in any way shape or form religion to either be taught in schools or have any effect on the laws of the land , ie divorce etc ..

how can any organisation that is so corrupt and goes against its own belives be alloud to influence any one in this country .

the whole structure of the church is against jesus's teachings he said no one man is more important than another yet the church has a higher archy :rolleyes: ,

the church are liars from the very top how can any one seriously go to church and take what they say to have any meaning .

every one knows the church has great and good priest's but since the vatican covered up the abuse then they are all accountable for not speaking out about it .

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This is the point im trying to make not everyone in the Church was involved. There are priests out there helping their community and are ashamed of whats happened and how it was covered up. Not every priest knew about it how can you say that do you know everything that happens in your family.

Yeah the Church is on quite a pedestal but each person inside that church im sure is treated the same as the next man.

I think for priests to come out every Sunday and say mass they have balls and should be commended for it. Its a bit like Tana Umaga from New Zealand showing his face in Dublin.

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

So how do you suggest we give children a healthy moral start in life/society if we leave them in the dark until they are 18 to decide.....I, for one, cannot begin to imagine the society we would find ourselves in if that was the way.

Human nature, being what it is, requires some sort of higher being to have faith of some description, any physcologists will tell you that so if was Catholicism it would be something else and there would be a different queue forming with misgivings about that religion and it's place in society, schools etc...

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So you can't teach children between right and wrong without catholism? Why not change the schools to CofI then, if the only requirement is some form of religion. If people want their child to get a religious education, they can do it in their own time if that's what they want.

At the moment children and parents are bullied and forced to accept a catholic education. There is no choice. The state should provide non-demoninational schools only.

The state has evolved and as it has evolved religion is becoming far less important amongst irish people. To attempt to bring islam and immigration into the equation is an attempt to muddy the waters and is irrelevant to the discussion.

Take out the fact that we're becoming a multi-cultural society, and look at the irish people you know. How many go to mass, particularly those that don't have children (since many schools give priority to regular mass goers so force parents to go to church).

[QUOTE=Green Army Girl]This is the point im trying to make not everyone in the Church was involved. There are priests out there helping their community and are ashamed of whats happened and how it was covered up. Not every priest knew about it how can you say that do you know everything that happens in your family.
QUOTE]

well if it was printed in every national paper , covered in most international papers and news channels then id probibly have an idea .

if a member of my family kidnapped raped tortured and murdered children and the whole family covered up for it would i dissown them? .. yes i would in a second , the very fact your trying to excuse any of them is quite sickening .

if i was a good priest id leave the church saying i cant be part of it any more .



id accept a religion class as in a class that disscussed all religions didnt exclude any kids , there are such schools in ireland now where the kids disscuss the religous holidays as they happen , if its a islamic holiday they talk about what that means how it is celebrated etc ..

how can you suggest that the catolic church be alloud to teach kids blatent lies , ie dinasours were put here by god as a trick to test our fate