Political / Social Discussion of London Bombings

How long did Tony Blair really believe he was going to avoid this type of tragedy happening in England? Hearing him talk about it, you'd think he's surprised about the bombings. He's brought his country to war (a country that I've a lot of friends in), and expected that he could fight it in a far away war field and keep his own country nice and clean.

In fairness like, he's sending people over to Iraq and killing 20 civillians every day. He had it coming. He's completly responsible for those poor people who've died. Was it worth it Tony?

He can back out of Iraq at any point. Will he? I doubt it. Where's next - Copenhagen? Then where? Another US City, then maybe back to some other UK City?

"We only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time"

and THAT'S THE MAMMOTH TASK FACING security services whose job it is to deal with terrorism. no one remembers the scores of plots foiled they only remember the ones that were not.
you could prevent 20-30 attacks which MI5 have done in the last three years, but there is very little you can do when people are fatalistic and pick soft targets.
As today's events in London have sadly shown.

I'm not trying to make any particular political points or statements here, but there is simply no way to "win" this "War on Terror" by force of arms.

It is completely impossible to stop the type of outrage we saw in London, Madrid and elsewhere. It CANNOT be prevented. 2 or 3 people can make up small size explosive devices, go into a packed area and cause carnage. This is no way to ensure this never happens.

Instead of pumping more money into more arms, soldiers and "security", it must surely be dawning on even our most braindead leaders that there has to be another way to deal with these killers.

Making a start on sorting out the problems which give the recruiters ample reasons to get young boys and girls to take their own lives and the lives of so many other innocents, will do a lot more to prevent these attacks than millions of dollars of security arangements will do in the long term.

The ONLY people who suffer in war are the poor and the innocent.

Blair will use it to score political points over ID Cards and Internment.

Personally I think it's too early to get into the politics of the situation in a forum where people were directly effected - there can be no defence of what happened.

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Originally Posted by shedite

How long did Tony Blair really believe he was going to avoid this type of tragedy happening in England? Hearing him talk about it, you'd think he's surprised about the bombings. He's brought his country to war (a country that I've a lot of friends in), and expected that he could fight it in a far away war field and keep his own country nice and clean.

In fairness like, he's sending people over to Iraq and killing 20 civillians every day. He had it coming. He's completly responsible for those poor people who've died. Was it worth it Tony?

He can back out of Iraq at any point. Will he? I doubt it. Where's next - Copenhagen? Then where? Another US City, then maybe back to some other UK City?

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So are you saying this attack in London is justified? I am confused with opinions like this. Tony Blair "had it coming" you say but it only came to innocent people on a tube and a bus. Did they have it coming as well?
The people are not even buried yet and you try to justify cowardly fundamentalist *******s that are attempting to rid the world of democratic rights for everyone. They have been attacking our way of life in the west for years now, way before Iraq etc and now you say that these people had it coming. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad:

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Originally Posted by Macy

Blair will use it to score political points over ID Cards and Internment.

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Hm, my brain has been in slow, I never thought about that. Where do we stand on the whole ID Card thing? Will we do it if they do?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Personally I think it's too early to get into the politics of the situation in a forum where people were directly effected - there can be no defence of what happened.

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I think that sums it up pretty well. This could be an interesting debate. But right now it feels a bit difficult to look at the bigger picture, Tony Blair etc, when every channel and every paper is running this story and everyone is waiting for more news. Like I said its just my opinion, debate away of you want :o

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Originally Posted by rebs23

So are you saying this attack in London is justified?

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rebs23, you know damn well that wasn't what he was saying. Other sites let people get away with that pathetic kind of argument, this one won't. If you can't debate rationally here, debate somewhere else.

adam

I don't have a problem with debate on this subject as long as it's reasonably rational and self-policing. I've edited the title of this thread to be more generic with that in mind. If it descends into the kind of crap rebs23 comes out with I'll lock it and the debate will need to go elsewhere.

adam

What crap? Sorry Adam but the only crap being spouted here is by posting that Blair is responsible for this act of terrorism. These people have been engaged in this type of activity long before Blair came to power.
Are other points of view allowed or is this forum only for people with a certain political slant, if so fair enough I won't engage inpolitical debate but it does make me very mad that someone comes on here and posts that Blair had it coming before the dead are even buried.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

So are you saying this attack in London is justified? I am confused with opinions like this. Tony Blair "had it coming" you say but it only came to innocent people on a tube and a bus. Did they have it coming as well?

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Of course I am not saying those people had it coming.

What I'm saying is that Bush, Blair and every media have used the word "war" in every statement about terrorism. They can't think that they can go and fight the war in Iraq and then talk about terrorists when it happens on their own land. It was going to come to Britain eventually.

As someone paul said already, sending more troops to Iraq and killing another 1,000 civilians for the sake of kiling 100 terrorists isn't going to win the war. It's just going to make more civilians hate the western world. Bush and Blair should be big enough to admit that now.

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Originally Posted by shedite

Of course I am not saying those people had it coming.

What I'm saying is that Bush, Blair and every media have used the word "war" in every statement about terrorism. They can't think that they can go and fight the war in Iraq and then talk about terrorists when it happens on their own land. It was going to come to Britain eventually.

As someone paul said already, sending more troops to Iraq and killing another 1,000 civilians for the sake of kiling 100 terrorists isn't going to win the war. It's just going to make more civilians hate the western world. Bush and Blair should be big enough to admit that now.

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Yesterday was an utterly indiscriminate attack on civilians. Literally terrorism. Inciting terror and fear into the hearts of civilians. Ken Livingstone actually put it quite well yesterday in his description. Yes it was most likely inevitable, but do you bow down to the threat of terrorism and let it paralyse you? While the action in Iraq is quite debateable and questionable I think and should hope that the purpose is not to incite general terror and murder indiscriminately.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

should hope that the purpose is not to incite general terror and murder indiscriminately.

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What is the purpose. The "west" isn't willing to address what is driving these fundamentalists to blow themselves up? Whats making these organisations recruit? Does a bombing in iraq have the same membership effect on these groups as Bloody Sunday had on the RA?

Until we understand why, we ain't going to be able to fight it or solve the problem.

It hardly helps that some despots are "good" and some are "bad" in the eye's of the west - Saddam is bad isn't an arguement we can win whilst the Saudi's are proped up.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

What crap?

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The crap where you put words in other people's mouths rebs23, like both I and shedite just pointed out to you. I won't have emotional outburts that try to distort what people are saying, I don't care what the circumstances. If you don't like the rules I set, go somewhere else. If you do it again, I'll ban you from this section of the site.

adam

Here's the thing Macy what is driving them to blow themselves up? I honestly believe there is no satisfying the demands of the most extreme of Islamic fundementalists. The Iraqi war, support of Israel etc. are just ammunition which they use to draw in a wider more impressionable group. I think though that there is a core there that find the West, its values, way of life and so on objectionable and that to me is frightening. I do not think their concerns are really addressable.

[QUOTE=dahamsta]I don't have a problem with debate on this subject as long as it's reasonably rational and self-policing. I've edited the title of this thread to be more generic with that in mind. If it descends into the kind of crap rebs23 comes out with I'll lock it and the debate will need to go elsewhere.

adam[/QUOTE
Sorry adam but you seem to have a problem with political debate. My point is reasonable and rational if someone posts that "He had it coming." I am entitled to ask the question what he meant by those highly inappropriate comments. In fairness Shedite has answered that question but it is still wrong to suggest that Blair is responsible for the deaths of those people and may I suggest utter crap.

The people responsible are those that engage in a campaign of violence against western democracy and the values of freedom. They detest the west the freedom of expression, the rights of minorities and the rights of women. Anywhere in the world these type of fundamentalists have taken power they have proven themselves to be as bad if not worse than the gulags of Russia or the concentration camps of Hitler. To these people it is irrelevant if Britian is in Iraq their aim is the destruction of the values of democratic society.

Adam I posed a question and went onto say I was confused with statements like Shedite's and also made the point that starting such debate and statements is highly inappropriate when people aren't even buried yet. If this is not reasonable rational and self policing debate then I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Here's the thing Macy what is driving them to blow themselves up? I honestly believe there is no satisfying the demands of the most extreme of Islamic fundementalists. The Iraqi war, support of Israel etc. are just ammunition which they use to draw in a wider more impressionable group. I think though that there is a core there that find the West, its values, way of life and so on objectionable and that to me is frightening. I do not think their concerns are really addressable.

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I would agree, but until "we" stop giving them excuses then they are going to be have a growing support base. Until the wests contradictions are admitted and solved we're in no position to fight fundamentalism - any reaction will just drive it further...

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Originally Posted by Macy

I would agree, but until "we" stop giving them excuses then they are going to be have a growing support base. Until the wests contradictions are admitted and solved we're in no position to fight fundamentalism - any reaction will just drive it further...

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The sad thing is, to fight this form of fundementalism it is necessary get one's hands dirty and sometimes do what is contrary to our principals to protect them. I read a good few things on this as I studied a course on this exact topic this year in politics and you realise it's so far from black and white you'd have a headache trying to work out how to approach the matter.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

Sorry adam but you seem to have a problem with political debate. My point is reasonable and rational if someone posts that "He had it coming."

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No, it's not. You specifically suggested that shedite was saying that the bombings in London were justified, when he said nothing of the sort. It was a disgusting comment to make, far more offensive than any reasonable person could consider the original comments.

Putting words - offensive words - in other people's mouths is the most pathetic, weakest debating tactic out there. Grow up.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

No, it's not. You specifically suggested that shedite was saying that the bombings in London were justified, when he said nothing of the sort. It was a disgusting comment to make, far more offensive than any reasonable person could consider the original comments.

Putting words - offensive words - in other people's mouths is the most pathetic, weakest debating tactic out there. Grow up.

adam

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I put no words in anyones mouth and I know I am repeating myself but this issue is very important to me so I'll make one last point. I posed a question about what he meant by "He had it coming. he's completely responsible for those poor people who've died". You must admit that it is reasonable to ask if he was trying to justify the bombings after comments like those, I realise,fair enough on reflection and after reading the posts again and following Shedites response that he was not trying to justify it but surely you can see why I asked the question and made the comments I did. I am sure I was not the only person reading that post that interpeted those comments the way I did.

I am sorry adam but his original comments were far more disgusting than me posing a question and then saying I was confused by his post.
In my opinion it is "disgusting" that someone should post here that Blair is responsible for this outrage. "He had it coming" was the quote and I think that was an awful comment to make the day after.

As for growing up I just don't know what to say to that, I'll leave that to other people on here to judge.