If Michael Collins had lived....

...would

(a) Fine Gael be bigger than Fianna Fail ?

(b) Civil war have broken out with the Unionists up north? He only regarded partition as a temporary matter to get the Treaty signed and intended to resume the struggle in the northeastern counties.

(c) our economy have been as bad as it was for all those years bearing in mind he had a lot of business ideas ?

(d) De Valera never have achieved the power and status he did ?

Just read Tim Pat Coogan's biography (I know it's been around for years) of the man. Lots of info I never knew like Percival, the British General who surrendered Singapore to the Japs, was a major in Ireland during the troubles who tortured Irish prisoners. Field marshal Montgomery also told his troops not to worry about Irish civilian casualties during the troubles when he was also a low ranking officer.

Superb book and good research. Collins,IMO, was a mastermind. But the real scary part is if he had lived, we would all have a Cork accent!!!!!! :eek: :D

..and be speaking Irish with a Cork accent.

a.Fine Gael weren't around, Sinn Fein was the party
b.it would've ment war with UK
c.too hard to say
d.I hope to God that would be true!! :D

I'm going to be rude and not answer your questions,I just wanted to say thank God for gifting Ireland with his excellency ,Michael Collins

The best thing to ever come out of Cork.

de Valera was one of the not so great things to happen to this country. Was like a 30 year time pause.

Michael Collins was Great Ever irishman.

before i read the thread i thought it should be moved to the portadown forum :D

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Originally Posted by D2 Red

I'm going to be rude and not answer your questions,I just wanted to say thank God for gifting Ireland with his excellency ,Michael Collins

The best thing to ever come out of Cork.

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That and the N8 :D

I think you lot are giving Dev a harder time than he deserves.

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Originally Posted by D2 Red

I think you lot are giving Dev a harder time than he deserves.

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I think he was behind Michael Collins' death. :mad:

And I think he gets alot more credit then he deserves.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

I think he was behind Michael Collins' death. :mad:

And I think he gets alot more credit then he deserves.

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He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.

I also think he was behind Michael Collins but we will never know.

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Originally Posted by D2 Red

He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.

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He's seen by alot of people in my grandparent's generation as the "saviour of Ireland" by making it a republic and being Taoiseach and President.

Fair play to him for doing all that, but I honestly believe there's something sinister about him. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by superfrank

I honestly believe there's something sinister about him. :rolleyes:

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of course there was, he was a conservative yankee :D

Had he lived feck all would have changed up here anyway.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Interesting.

On the other hand, I think Collins was in West Cork for the sole purpose of rooting out those who were willing to lay down their lives beside him only a few short years before. He had already trained British guns on his former comrades, an event often overlooked, and history shows that the executions only commenced a short time later...

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Also an interesting point that as you said is overlooked but Where and what state would his Country be in without him

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Originally Posted by Conor74

On the other hand, I think Collins was in West Cork for the sole purpose of rooting out those who were willing to lay down their lives beside him only a few short years before. He had already trained British guns on his former comrades, an event often overlooked, and history shows that the executions only commenced a short time later...

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Who turned guns on who? Those that wouldn't accept the will of the people? Those that spoke of wading through blood of Irishmen?

Hard to say how history would've judged Collins had he lived, but doubt it would've cast Dev in any better light. Sure he couldn't manage it controlling a paper group brought with funds raised for Ireland....

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Originally Posted by D2 Red

He gets little or no credit as it is and it's not enough.

I also think he was behind Michael Collins but we will never know.

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No DeValera is quoted as trying to persuade them to call off the ambush. According to Tim Pat Coogan, DeValera liked power for the sake of power while Collins liked it to see what he could achieve with it.

When did Sein Fein go from being within the mainstream to outside it ? Arthur Griffiths, the founder of Sinn Fein, was one of the most pro-treaty people of the time.

Collins would never have fought alongside the UK in WW2 while the northeastern counties remained part of the UK.

I think the make up of Northern Ireland might have been a little different.The main thing that persuaded Collins to sign the treaty was that Lloyd George promised a thorough boundary commission to look into the status of the 6 counties. Collins was led to believe that this would take vast chunks and be given to the Free State. He thought that the "rump state" that would be be left would prove to be untenable and a 32 County state would only be a matter of time after that. A little naive perhaps but theres no doubt he would not have stood for the cursory boundary commision of 24/5? that changed f*ck all.

Love the portrayal of Collins in Roddy Doyles "A Star called Henry" - a shadowy yet almost loveable rogue who inspired blind loyalty in his followers. Theres no doubt that he had more charisma in his little finger than Dev had in his whole body. Mind you the same could be said for Haughey :eek: :D

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Originally Posted by Conor74

You might be generous. I don't know if he was 'persuaded' into signing the Treaty so much as bullied and hoodwinked into signing it after marathon talks with some extremely shrewd negotiators.

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Sure Dev would've done so much better.... If he hadn't bottled going to the talks, great statesman that he was... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Macy

Sure Dev would've done so much better.... If he hadn't bottled going to the talks, great statesman that he was... :rolleyes:

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Saw a program on that in the BBC (i think with Simon Shama) a few years back. Anyway, DeValera made sure he wasn't going to sign the partitioning of Ireland and left it to Collins, so he could take the rap for Ulster remaining outside of the FreeState. Dev stitched him up good and proper on this point, hence the falling out and Civil War to ensure DeValera's leadership.