Lynndie England

She was that soldier photographed with the naked Iraqi prisoner in Abu Ghraib Prison near Baghdad. Although she changed to a guilty plea yesterday, she could still be sentenced for up to 11 years.
Why this news caught my attention is the defence evidence in mitigation that she has a learning disability, and that she has a history of psychiatric illness.
What in the name of God was she doing serving in the US Army?
The cynic in me wonders if many kids like that were deliberately targeted by the military recruiters, safe in the knowledge that they would take orders and follow them without question. In this case, that appears to be exactly what happened.
How many more kids like her are serving soldiers? When that Italian secret service agent was killed by US troops a few months back, it seemed like a tragic accident. Now, you would have to wonder if accidents like this happen a lot because the US troops just are not up to a professional standard. And maybe we don't get to hear about it unless news leaks out by accident.

Since the draft ended, usually only the poor end up in US army. Many seem to join to get an education/trade of sorts or as an escape from rednecksville.
My godson toyed with the idea of joining the US army a few years ago (pre-Iraq) even though he didn't need to - qualified for university here - he just wanted to see what it was like. Y'know, the curiosity of youth. I nearly had a heart attack when he broached it. Had he gone ahead, could be dead/maimed now. Glad I was able to cop him on.

See where many students are harrassing army recruiment at third level colleges - way to go!
Many recruiters are blatantly lying what's in store - don't mention the war type thing.
In a weird kinda way, I feel a little sorry for the likes of England - obviously brainless and easily manipulated. I've no doubt that orders/influence came from much higher.
US army will eventually end up $hit creek due to dropping numbers.

Are not something like 75-80% of US soldiers in Iraq reservists? Most come small town america trying to put in their time some decent cash for their families. It was the same for Vietnam where goingt o college could exempt people from the draft.

If a middle or upper class soldier was killed in Iraq i'm sure we have heard about it.

She is almost certainly guilty but amazing the Commander in Chief had avoided almost allt he blame.

:rolleyes:

What the US are doing in Cuba is amoral & illegal. They have lost almost every case taken in the US against those detentions.

No arguments there. Not too sure re. Vietnam era. I think many college students had not as much choice as we think ie. John Kerry - quite a few managed to join the Peace Corps. You're right about the middle class aspect - probably why it got so much media attention at the time was many middle class were being drafted and middle class dominated media reporting on it. Reporting on their own, so to speak.
Kind of has similarities with here - a murder of/by a person froma "respectable family" is often a remark made by a Judge in the court. For res. fam. read upper or middle class.
I know I seem all over the shop here but, in the Brian Murphy case, you can be damn sure if those involved had played football a term like "soccer murder" or soccer death would have been used.
Bush and rest of his neocons are, of course, 99.9% responsible.
Ironic to see Fox "News", a few minutes ago, giving airtime to an ex-soldier condemning the Gitmo situation. Things are beginning to disintegrate a little on the US right, methinks.

Almost all of the people who sign up for the forces here do tend to come from the middle to lower classes. Most who sign up after high school cannot afford college or dont have enough good grades to get in. You don't here much about signing up for the love of the country etc. I've known a few people who are/were in the military. My cousin was in the navy for 5 years in the late 80s-early 90's around the time of the gulf war. He was in logistics or something. Although he was 5 years in the navy, he never stepped onto a ship in that time.
I coach 6& 7 year old soccer here and one of the kids' father was in Iraq recently with the marines. I just met him last week for the first time after one of the games, don't know if he is on leave or is out of the military. I'll have to ask him about Iraq if I see him at the next game...

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Originally Posted by Metrostars

Almost all of the people who sign up for the forces here do tend to come from the middle to lower classes. Most who sign up after high school cannot afford college or dont have enough good grades to get in. You don't here much about signing up for the love of the country etc. I've known a few people who are/were in the military. My cousin was in the navy for 5 years in the late 80s-early 90's around the time of the gulf war. He was in logistics or something. Although he was 5 years in the navy, he never stepped onto a ship in that time.
I coach 6& 7 year old soccer here and one of the kids' father was in Iraq recently with the marines. I just met him last week for the first time after one of the games, don't know if he is on leave or is out of the military. I'll have to ask him about Iraq if I see him at the next game...

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I just pray to God he survives Iraq. When I think of all the American families broken hearted by deaths from an unjust war, the thousands back home with mutilated bodies and the tens of thousands of Iraquis killed and maimed - all sent there by an entire neocon government, none of whom pulled a trigger in their pathetic little lives, I drives me nuts. Metrostars - why the fcuk aren't MILLIONS of US citizens out on the streets protesting. Why?? Is there no legacy of the 1960s left when a superb media/people had the guts to defy government and show the truth. If this cannot happen in America, it cannot happen anywhere. :(

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Originally Posted by pete

Are not something like 75-80% of US soldiers in Iraq reservists? Most come small town america trying to put in their time some decent cash for their families. It was the same for Vietnam where goingt o college could exempt people from the draft.

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I'm anti this war, but if someone signs up as a reservist, then they know they are potentially going to go to war. It's totally different from the draft, as bottom line it was their choice to sign up. Ultimately it's what they get paid for for the weekends etc they put in training.

I would also suggest that in most armies in the world the majority come from the lower socio-economic backgrounds, especially if they're entering at non-officer level. Just the nature of armed forces (and wars) since the beginning of time - the rich and powerful make the decisions, the ordinary joe's do the fighting and dying. It's not an American thing imo.

The news this morning said that the judge had called a mis-trial. There was no other details though so not sure what's happening or what the reason was.

Just read a very good novel about the Great War and its affect on the thousands of Irishmen who volunteered to join the British army to free a small Catholic country, Belgium. In the army they were treated like 2nd class citizens. Unlike the present US army, the volunteers came from all walks of Irish life to join up. Thousands upon thousands lost their lives and many more were maimed for life. They came back to a completely different Ireland, and were mostly shunned. Totally off the point I know, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I'm anti this war, but if someone signs up as a reservist, then they know they are potentially going to go to war. It's totally different from the draft, as bottom line it was their choice to sign up. Ultimately it's what they get paid for for the weekends etc they put in training.

I would also suggest that in most armies in the world the majority come from the lower socio-economic backgrounds, especially if they're entering at non-officer level. Just the nature of armed forces (and wars) since the beginning of time - the rich and powerful make the decisions, the ordinary joe's do the fighting and dying. It's not an American thing imo.

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No, it's not just an American thing but I suppose it's high on the radar given the US involvement in Iraq.
Many US soldiers who legged it to Canada recently claimed that war was not on their minds when they signed, be they reservists or whatever. I suppose when you become a soldier war is always a possibility but many recruiters deliberately downplayed it when signing up potential soldiers. What is chilling is to see blokes my age, years retired from anything resembling active service, called up for Iraq, Once you're on the list you're on it for good. That's really scary. There's no "out" clause. :(

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Originally Posted by Macy

I'm anti this war, but if someone signs up as a reservist, then they know they are potentially going to go to war. It's totally different from the draft, as bottom line it was their choice to sign up. Ultimately it's what they get paid for for the weekends etc they put in training.

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I agree, hope I am not being cold-hearted but, it makes me angry to hear these families giving out to Tony Blair, my son/husband/daughter died in this war/government's fault etc, come on!!! :rolleyes: You joined the army, what did you expect, to sit around playing with toy guns all your career! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by kerr's tribe

I agree, hope I am not being cold-hearted but, it makes me angry to hear these families giving out to Tony Blair, my son/husband/daughter died in this war/government's fault etc, come on!!! :rolleyes: You joined the army, what did you expect, to sit around playing with toy guns all your career! :rolleyes:

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i feel the same. all these families being awarded thousands of dollars because their son died in iraq?

its their job to risk death. if you dont want to die, dont sign up. its like a lifeguard getting compo for sunburn

They've got a cheek haven't they?!! :mad: They should be completely ignored.

Depends whether the arguement is that they shouldn't be called up if there's a war (eg the reservists) or whether the war was illegal. If it's the latter, which appears to be the case of the UK families, then I support them.

2 different arguements imo.
1) Reservists shouldn't have been called up - bull, their countries army is in action, and they signed up in full knowledge that they could be and were happy to take the money when the was no conflict.

2) The army shouldn't be in Iraq. Fair enough - it's an illegal war, that the US/UK Governments justified based on at best dodgy information, at worst outright lies.

Seems a bit of a contradiction, but....

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Originally Posted by kerr's tribe

I agree, hope I am not being cold-hearted but, it makes me angry to hear these families giving out to Tony Blair, my son/husband/daughter died in this war/government's fault etc, come on!!! :rolleyes: You joined the army, what did you expect, to sit around playing with toy guns all your career! :rolleyes:

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glad to see there'ssomeone who agrees with me. FFS, it's like becoming a teacher and then complaining you don't like dealing with kids. You joined the army, you idiots what did you expect :rolleyes:

Yes armys are organised by class structure so pretty much mirrows society.

American people are not protesting about the war in Iraq because they support the "actions" in the Middle East. Republicans now control all the branches of goverment & only have minority in the judiciary. People vote for republicans therefore they support the war. Reservists know they going to war (they will have their reasons) if they sign up so is a bit rich complaining when they end up in Iraq.

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Originally Posted by sirhamish

why the fcuk aren't MILLIONS of US citizens out on the streets protesting. Why??

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Well, from what I say, people are afraid to say anything. So many people have friends/family affected by the war that people are afraid to say stuff in public. America is not as against the war as it seems. I think the most vocal people are the anti-war so it comes across that way. I'm here in Boston which is major democrat country, so I can't imagine what the republican states are like.

I agree completly with the class thing. Funniest part of farenheit 9/11 (not that I don't think this film a bit exaggerated), is when Micheal Moore asks asks the US politicians so enrol their sons and daughters in the war. From here, the upper classes are happy to put a "support our troops" sticker on their car and that's their bit done for the war. They see themselves as way above the army.

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Originally Posted by shedite

Well, from what I say, people are afraid to say anything. So many people have friends/family affected by the war that people are afraid to say stuff in public. America is not as against the war as it seems. I think the most vocal people are the anti-war so it comes across that way. I'm here in Boston which is major democrat country, so I can't imagine what the republican states are like.

I agree completly with the class thing. Funniest part of farenheit 9/11 (not that I don't think this film a bit exaggerated), is when Micheal Moore asks asks the US politicians so enrol their sons and daughters in the war. From here, the upper classes are happy to put a "support our troops" sticker on their car and that's their bit done for the war. They see themselves as way above the army.

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Bang on the button, Corky Boy (sorry, couln't resist that :D ) check out John Fogerty/Creedence song "Fortune Son" - says it all and written in the sixties. Song also used by the Dems in election. Fogerty's latest "Deja Vous all over again! echoes the same sentiments. (I think the lyrics are still on John Fogerty.com). That aspect of Fahreheit 911 was the best part - did you see the craven wnakers (senators etc) trying to avoid Moore and soldier when asked about their sons joining up - what a bunch of cnuts!!
Eanna, lay off us teachers!! I blame the parents, not the kids 'cos far too many parents don't give a siht about their kids schooling. I know what you meant and were using that line as an anology (right word?) but it really gets me going when teachers/kids are even mentioned.
I think there should be a new website eg. Rate the parents.com. = that would shut the fcukers up! :mad:

Yanks could say they didn't know they were voting for in 2000 but the re-election of George W Bush means can't use that excuse anymore.

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Originally Posted by Macy

it's an illegal war, that the US/UK Governments justified based on at best dodgy information, at worst outright lies.

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Really?? :rolleyes: Since when was a war "legal"? When the DN (Divided Nations) could finally agree on something? Sorry, but the world can't sit on it's hands and wait forever for them to agree to a war, or not. The Iraq conflict was the result of 12 years of failed diplomacy.

It's easy to say now that there were no WMD in Iraq. Before the war there, Hussein had used WMD in the past on his own country and his neighbours, and he had never allowed free, and fair weapons inspections. Nobody could prove that there were no WMD in Iraq, and anyhow, it was only one of the reasons why Iraq was invaded.

Hussein was an unpredictable, dangerous thug who had to go. Unfortunately, he could only be removed by force. 25 years of war, daily terror, torture, and executions by him and his cronies, was more than enough. Yes, there have been problems there in the last 2 years, and many people have been killed. There would have been millions more killed however, if his regime was left in place to do, god knows what, in the future.