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Pardon my ignorance, but where did these come from? I associate them with yobbery to a certain extent and googling tends to support that, but I'm sure some of the supporters groups weren't thinking along those lines when they set up. So where did they come from, and aren't supporters concerned with the association with hooligans?
adam
I've done a load of research on this topic adam and I know that Bohemians have had a large casual following since the mid to late 90s. I know a few lads who I used to go to games with are now considered casuals. All the hooligan crews in England are called casuals because of the clothes they wear. They wear the likes of stone island etc ... all expensive brands. I aint too sure how the casual secene managed to come across the water but im fairly sure that one or two of the casuals who are regular posters on these boards will be able to fill in the blanks.
I recently interviewed the FAI Safety Officer for a thesis im doing and he informed me that there are no hooligans in Ireland. Basically a hooligan is like what one would see in a film like the football factory or ID. I for one have never seen scenes like these in years,so "hooligan" is a very strong word to use for them.
Don't casuals come over from the likes of Milwall for some Rovers games? Those guys are definite hooligans, so I think in a case like that it's more than just being concerned with the association with hooliganism, it is an association with hooliganism, but a the Rovers will have to confirm that this has happenned. I just heard it from someone.
A statement I'd expect from an FAI Safety Officer, and one I simply don't believe. I've never seen hooliganism in Ireland personally, but I've seen enough reports of "fan" violence inside and outside grounds to know that it exists, and that he's trying to minimise the issue with definitions. Like a politician.Quote:
Originally Posted by aido_b
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying hooliganism is a major problem in Ireland, but to suggest that it doesn't exist isn't just silly, it's dangerous. If you're talking to him again you should tell him that doing his job is a lot like alcoholism: He needs to admit the problem before he can fix it.
adam
It's precisely because of those associations with the perceived violent glamour of continental (especially Italian) hooliganism that various deluded parties style themselves "casuals" and suchlike, but for the most part (specifically in this country, but also across much of Europe) their antics amount to little more than harmless posturing by fifteen-year-olds or middle-aged louts who are usually too corpulent or too strung out to so much as swing a punch, let alone organise a riot.
The Rovers Ultras have a very unfair reputation imo. Anytime there's any trouble at a Rovers game they seem to link it to the Ultras as if they are purely a hooligan firm, all they do is organise the flags/flares and that, but every scumbag that follows Rovers seems to get immedtially associated with them in the press. Then there was that absolutley disgraceful nio-nazi bile printed in the Herald that spread all sorts of rubbish about the Ultras, and they're now seen as a hooligan group by many which isn't the case from what I've seen.
I don't there is any organised fan violence in Irealnd which is waht i would associate hooligans with.
Casuals just seem to be idiots & as close to orgainsers of violence than we have in this country.
Ultras are not hooligans either - people who spend that much time organising flags etc... wouldn't have time for a scrap.
That's another word people link with holliganism-when I hear 'firm' I normally think headhunters and the likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
That story is absolute bullsh*t and is not deserving of taking up cyberspace never mind print which a certain organ did some years back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie
I have been a fan of our League for many year sand while I've witnessed some handbagging I could assert that there is no "organised" element to it.
As for Ultras, they don't have time for anything other than supporting their teams.
Casuals, well from what I've seen of them, mainly associated with one northside Dublin club, are mindless numbskulls who seem to think "clobber" and the more expensive it is marks them out as hardmen.
There was a case where 14 millwall fans were stopped from attending a Bohs vs Rovers game a couple of seasons ago. 3 of the Millwall fans ended up being arrested.I think in that case it was a couple of Millwall hooligans who got to know a Rovers fan on holiday, they only came over for a fight. I remember viewing the millwall message board after all this and they were bragging on how they bet the crap out of dubs and all that usual ****e
First of all, casuals and ultras are two separate things.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Ultras are basically organised fan groups, who try to create atmosphere- pyrotechnics, smoke, drums, banners, flags, till rolls etc. Some (especially in Italy and Spain) are involved in violence, indeed some clubs have more than one group of Ultras, in both Spain and Italy Ultras groups often have a political leaning too.
Casuals are people who don't wear any colours (no jersey, no scarf, no nuthin) to games- i.e. the direct opposite of above! AFAIK, there is more of an element of violence/hooliganism associated with casuals.
The Rovers Ultras (as Slash said) they have a very unfair rep. Mainly due to moronic reporting by the evening herald. They came from fans wanting to organise atmosphere and colour at matches. see interviewQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
As for the association with hooligans- the only people who associate the term Ultra with hooliganism are people who don't know what Ultras really are (no offence). Obviously with Ultras being the loudest, most extrovert (fr want of a better word) group of fans, they will attract the loudest, most extrovert trouble makers in some cases. Hence, its very easy for them to be labelled. The basic mission of Ultras is make noise and colour- simple as.
The problem is what do you define as hooliganism. IMO, hooliganism is when the violence is pre-meditated and organised, between two groups dedicated to violence- as with "firms" in England. IM, there is NO hooliganism as such in this league.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Fan violence is a different kettle of fish, and that exists everywhere, right from schoolboy football up. That is where people throw coins/bottles/punches on the spur of the moment, and it (sometimes) degenerates into a brawl between opposing fans. That is simply a case of people not being able to handle their drink, and/or the sort of moronic violence that plagues the streets of this country- i.e. if they didn't do it at a match, they'd do it outside a bar a few hours later.
as I said, depends what you define hooliganism as. If you take it as something organised, then he is spot on in saying it doesn't exist in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
aido,Quote:
Originally Posted by aido_b
don't mean to disappoint you but that story is totally without foundation and never happened, and NO I am not a Rovers fan.
Amazing how as Hayser puts it, if it's on the internet it must be true, though in this case it patently isn't. Can you back up the assertion that it occured. Ok, it was reported in one paper but where was/is the evidence. IIRC, the journalist in question based it on something he was told on the day. I was at the game and saw nothing other than the usual tribal handbagging.
If you are going to base a thesis on Hooliganism in Irish Football I'd suggest you fully research and document your sources.
My understanding is this:
Casuals - derived from the dress scene of the early to mid eighties (basically starting from the day 'Lionels' went from being cooooool to ridiculous around 1981 in my part of England but 1986 in Liverpool :D ). Loads of us wore stuff like Fila, Sergio Tiocinni (spelling), Pringle, Aquascutum, Lecoste, etc. Personally anybody still wearing these items 20 years on is a bit of a sad tw*t let alone wearing them for a ruck, but they were deffo good gear in their day.
Ultras - Italian, Spanish and Yugoslavian demi-hooligans. Differ from the scum hooligans in that I'd doubt they'd miss the game in order to have a punch-up (Tans fighting with other tans outside a pub at Euro 2000 while the England game was being shown inside an example.)
As i said in an earlier post I've researched this thoroughly. I was actually there when these fans were arrested outside tolka park, I wouldn't have said it other wise. I am not one for sensationalising stories so I wouldn't have commented on it had I not have seen it first hand. I have also seen an incident report form filed after the game and all of what I mentioned in my post is in the incident report.Quote:
If you are going to base a thesis on Hooliganism in Irish Football I'd suggest you fully research and document your sources.
Éanna (et al), I appreciate the definitions of the terms, but I'm afraid I have a problem with your assigning a conditional to the term "hooliganism". The word is clearly defined in the dictionary, and there's no mention of premeditation or organisation there. Hooligans are yobs, period, and although there's an awful lot less of them involved in Irish football, denying that a problem exists - as the FAI Safety Officer appears to have done - is disingenuous and dangerous. We're a lot better off in Ireland in that we don't appear to have organised mobs performing premeditated acts of violence and disruption, but there are issues, and they need to be dealt with swiftly and forcefully.
I also think it's very sad that the groups that have set up in Ireland don't show a little more intelligence and originality in choosing a name and image for themselves. The choice of a gothic font for the City Commandos alone shows crass naiveté imho. I'm not doubting their committment to the club when I say that btw, just that the name and the image are playing right into the hands of the aforementioned (admittedly poor) journalists. I think the odds of it backfiring are better than even.
EDIT: I should add that I'm thinking about the future here as much as the present. It appears that the eL is in a period of growth, and there's no doubt in my mind that these fan groups have had a substantial part to play in that, and should be applauded for their work. My concern would be that as local football grows it will become more attractive to the yob element, and they're going to make assumptions about these groups based on their names and images same as anyone else. I think they're going to need to keep a sharp eye on their membership.
adam
Yeah, that is a fair point. With names like Ultras or Commandos, it does make a lazy journalists job very easy indeed. The important thing therefore is for these groups to make sure nobody associated with them involves themselves in this kind of crap, and AFAIK both have done this up to now, whatever the herald or anyone else says.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
[MOD EDIT: Don't call people liars on Foot.ie unless you've got evidence to back it up please --adam]Quote:
Originally Posted by aido_b
anyway how can yo ustop 3 hooligans from coming to dublin?did they say to the police at dublin airport, "hello we're here for a mill at the Rovers v boez game,how do i get to tolka?". absolute bullsh!t story
Strangely, the Gardaí denied any arrests in the vacinty of Tolka Park that Sunday afternoon and also denied that there were any incidents concerning the alleged involvement of Millwall fans. ( I had checked at the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by aido_b
If you observed someone being "arrested" are you 100% certain that
1. they were arrested and not just stopped and questioned?
2. That they were "Millwall" supporters from London?
As for the incident report was it from the Gardaí or FAI? It would be interesting to see if it was a Garda report as they are not normally made available under the Free Of Information Act as they are exempt under section 23.
I have viewed a report and I'm sorry but I can't say where I got it from,
I did make a mistake however which I am sorry for, there were 3 English fans detained and 3 people arrested for public order offences. So apologies for my earlier posts but no English fans were arrested, 3 were detained. And yes I did see these scenes outside tolka park that day, they happened just before kick off.
I would agree with Eannas definition of hooliganism although i think it doesn't always have to be premeditated but would also need sufficuient numbers to make up a group.
IMO Hooliganism tends to happen more when "supporters" travel as worst thing to happen is that will just deported e.g english hooligans. If people involved in football violence were jailed in the country they were fighting i think numbers would drop.