Where are we going wrong in Europe ??

Are we as good as we can be in Europe in recent years? This was another overall disappointing year in europe (however, sprinkled with highlights). We see the likes of the Icelandic and Latvian leagues, who surly dont have much more money than us, almost regularly go past our teams and the only ones that we can knock out are teams from Luxembourg. Any suggestions why ?

My 5 cents there is a couple of reasons, all of which are problems within the league not with barstoolers or FAI.

First we have no one team that dominates the league (which is probably good), meaning no team can be our flagship in europe, able to hoard the money needed for progression.

Secondly, some managers are way too cautious and conservative, and don't have belief in their own team to worry the opponents.

Thirdly, fans and teams dont really expect to win. Think of Sligo versus Molde, Sligo where already beaten before the game and never really went at Molde. Their seems no real drive from specific teams to push on in Europe for some strange reason.

On the pitch, I think there is an overall lack of pace in the league, which takes a dimension away from our play. Also not enough space being created up front can be a killer in a lot of games (Dundalk vs BATE)(something rovers could do in their european triumphs)#.

I think the standard of football is higher than our ranking shows (might be rose tinted), especially when you see Irish teams play without fear in europe such as the likes of UCD and Drogheda, who caused problem for opposition despite being only mid table teams or worse here. Im not saying we should be expecting teams to be pushing for eurpa league group stages , just we should be getting through more stages than we are at this moment.

Any thoughts ?

I dont think we have the managers really. Same old faces with the same old tired tactics

Edit: I do like Keith Long though, perhaps Bohs might do something next season?

I think it's important to consider who we're playing against. The Luxembourg team we beat, for example, had a budget of €2m per annum. They had three players on €5k a week or more. That's serious stuff, but on the face of it, you'd just think yerrah, sure this is just a small team from Luxembourg (as I did!) Their gates are 500 per game. Slovan's gates are 1,500 a game - but their basic salary for all their players is €1,500 a week (a good wage here and a very good wage in Slovakia)

I presume a large chunk comes from sponsorship; lots of wealthy contacts in Luxembourg for example. Other countries get revenue from local TV deals of course. Slovan got group stage money last season. But I wonder could LoI clubs be doing more to look at other cash streams? Or is that the interest isn't there (which it isn't in TV unfortunately, and maybe wealthy contacts tend towards rugby/golf/other sports)?

In eastern Europe, you can do more with your €200k per round prize money. Not a major issue, but a financial drawback for us nonetheless.

Just another potential factor.

We keep losing matches😉

Agree about the over-cautious tactics. Far too many negative coaches/managers are using these tactics when the technical and fitness levels of players have improved. I genuinely believe that there is far more ability in the league now than when I first took an interest in it about 15/16 years ago, and that makes me optimistic that a good manager would have the confidence to rely on that, instead of playing hoofball. Kenny, probably, but with all due respect to Dundalk, they're a few key players short of breakthrough. Buckley too.

When you think about it, if it takes a rookie player, say 30-40 games to gain experience at a new level, and 100 to become competent, how many games does it take for a manager to have comparable expertise? If we keep picking from the same group of managers, most of whom have managed only a handful of games in Europe (if any) or the occasional lower league manager from England/Scotland who's on a short sabbatical from League 2, we can hardly expect tactical nous as standard.

And it will come back to money, as PS says. That kind of European experience isn't cheap, whether it's a manager who has 50+ European ties under his belt, or experience of three or more leagues as a player or manager. And this is an expensive country, so average professionals need more money here than elsewhere. The kind of pros who would make the league jump forward if there were two or three in each squad aren't affordable here. If a Slovan's average wage is €80,000pa, what equivalent amount would he have to be paid here to have the same spending power? Twice, three times that?

We keep coming up against teams that are better than us. It's the same reason UCD keep getting relegated. Even the bog-standard leagues like Latvia or Moldova or wherever all have at least one team with a budget much bigger than any of our clubs.

It's just a lack of quality which is from a lack of finances which is from a lack of leadership. I don't believe any of the sides can really feel they massively underachieved, maybe arguably St Pats could have got past Skonto at a push. A kinder draw and Dundalk could easily have got to the third-round and group stage EL but aside from them the other sides simply aren't good enough.

Coincidentally, just found this link with info on the budgets of a few of the more mundane European leagues - Poland, Czech Republic, Scotland, Bosnia, Israel.

We simply can't compete with that at all. Bosnia is the nearest (€1.5m for the top), but I would imagine Bosnia being a cheaper country than here helps them.

Hamilton got £875k in prize money for finishing bottom of the 2010/11 SPL. What is it here - €10k?

In the past decade, the FAI's income has grown from €8m to €38m, but LoI prize money has barely increased (and of course, league entry fees exceed overall prize money for most clubs). Give €5m a year in prize money to the LoI and you'd see some improvements in Europe.

Interesting read Stu. Now without opening a can of worms, what (see I didn't say who) would be the biggest annual budgets in the league? Would serve as a benchmark against leagues of similar size budgets.

Money is not the be all and end all in relation to European progression. A surplus should really go in to infrastructure and player development rather than inflating wages of the existing player pool. Maybe a few quality imports could happen and some money put in to scouting. But a long term plan of improving the technique of our young players is the only way that I see an improvement. Of course additional cash may help retain some players from moving abroad but the bright lights and the dream of EPL will always lure players away. Being able to get players home rather than going to lower leagues in England/Scotland would be possible.

In the mean time shrewd management and signing players that fit a particular system as SK has done at Dundalk rather than the wealthier clubs going out and trying to sign the top players from other clubs just because they're a POTY regardless whether this player fits in to a squad or not. With the exception of O'Donnell and Towell, Horgan 2014, Finn 2015, Dundalk's squad were not premium sought after players but were signed with particular traits in mind that would compliment each other. Since 2013 other clubs have been approaching the likes of Boyle who was never on a radar of those clubs before and may not be as effective at another club playing a different way and with a different type of player around him.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Money is not the be all and end all in relation to European progression.

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I think it's not far off it. But money doesn't have to equate to wages. You list a few other things which would all benefit the league - but all require money. Even coaching badges - and as Eminence hints, I think the coaching in the league has gone way up in the past 10/15 years - require money.

Ah I know money is essentia andl in bucket loads too, I suppose what I was saying is it depends on what additional money is spent on whether it make a serious difference. At one time Drogheda and Cork and Shels, for example, were paying players the sort of money that players can only dream of currently. If there is a cash injection from anywhere players will look to push up wages. It would be up to clubs to be careful of wher any additional monies will end up - being absorbed by increased demands of the current player pool rather than investing in future players.

Yeah - basically you need money and to be smart with money

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Originally Posted by ger121

Interesting read Stu. Now without opening a can of worms, what (see I didn't say who) would be the biggest annual budgets in the league? Would serve as a benchmark against leagues of similar size budgets.

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I don't know about other clubs but our income/expenditure is almost exactly €1,000,000 a season. Though we have a surprisingly low player salary to total budget, partially due to the rent we have to pay on Turners Cross and Bishopstown.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

I don't know about other clubs but our income/expenditure is almost exactly €1,000,000 a season. Though we have a surprisingly low player salary to total budget, partially due to the rent we have to pay on Turners Cross and Bishopstown.

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I'd be surprised if your income was that low. You would have the extra expenditure on the stadium though right enough. Sligo were pulling in more than that when they were second in the league on gates of 2k. Granted, they had European money but you'll have that for this year too.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I'd be surprised if your income was that low. You would have the extra expenditure on the stadium though right enough. Sligo were pulling in more than that when they were second in the league on gates of 2k. Granted, they had European money but you'll have that for this year too.

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I've seen the budget, it wasn't far off that last year, even with the larger crowds.

Obviously Europe will help this year.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

I've seen the budget, it wasn't far off that last year, even with the larger crowds.

Obviously Europe will help this year.

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Fair enough, just thought you'd bring in more considering the gates.

Where are we going wrong in Europe? Same as everywhere else in Irish football- we're not producing enough good players. And that goes back to the shambles of schoolboy football, poor coaching standards, stone age attitudes and an unwillingness to grasp the nettle and force through reforms.

Why we're that competitive is why we're not successful with the national team

Because no one really cares about Irish football

Something is not adding up there El-P. Average attendances of around 4k at €15 a head is €60k a game with 17 home games would be over €1m already (I know it's probably not exactly 4k and there's kids etc to be taken into account). Surely you're not relying purely on attendances for your revenue.

(insert token dig at John Caulfield and the great marketing team here)