Everton and Liverpool discussion

There's no doubting Liverpool's dominance on Merseyside for the most part within the last decade. :o

But what I'd like to ask is, are David Moyes' Blue Army finally getting the upper hand on their bitter rivals across Stanley Park? Will Rafael Benitez remain Rafael 'BeneathUs' or can the Spaniard turn the clubs fortunes around?? :eek: Who will finish higher come next May? :confused:

What do others think?? Would it be possible to set up a poll on this issue Adam? Thanks.

I firmly believe the tide is turning and it is a remarkable achievement by the toffees given the financial budgets of both clubs.
Moyes has performed miracles while surviving on a shoe string. Bringing in whole-hearted and dedicated individuals like Kilbane, Bent and Cahill and offloading ar$eholes the likes of Rooney and Radzinski has seen a swift change for the better down Goodison way!
Benitez on the other hand with enough money at his disposal has brought in a group of non-proven spaniards to replace Houllier's diabolical french contingent but unlike Moyes has had little joy so far in Scouseland!

Voice yer opinions folks!

sorry thought this was foot.ie not foot.co.uk
if i wanted to read cr@p about the dominance or lack of it from one english club or another i'd go else where and read it.
this country is once again becoming more and more over run with english.
this time the plantation is a slow one.
move the odd few over one by one and spread them throughout the country.
(this isn't the same as irish goin to engerland to find work)
the reason so many irish people went to engerland to find work was due to the fact that the brits came over here and raped our country.
the new plantation takes the form of a slow brain wash.
polute irish kids minds with uk based tv stations and music.
why is it that u can get the bbc in ireland but can't get rte in england?
answer: british government plan to retake control of our country.

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Originally Posted by $Leon$

sorry thought this was foot.ie not foot.co.uk
if i wanted to read cr@p about the dominance or lack of it from one english club or another i'd go else where and read it.
this country is once again becoming more and more over run with english.
this time the plantation is a slow one.
move the odd few over one by one and spread them throughout the country.
(this isn't the same as irish goin to engerland to find work)
the reason so many irish people went to engerland to find work was due to the fact that the brits came over here and raped our country.
the new plantation takes the form of a slow brain wash.
polute irish kids minds with uk based tv stations and music.
why is it that u can get the bbc in ireland but can't get rte in england?
answer: british government plan to retake control of our country.

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What are you on about?

This is a general football forum, so it can deal with anything from grassroots in Mayo, to the Copa Liberatores in South America.

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Would it be possible to set up a poll on this issue

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What exactly do you want the poll to be, and I will add it.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

the only silver lining being the relatively good form of Xavi Alonso.

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Luis Garcia has been a good signing too Conor, I know the fans are delighted with him and when I've seen him myself he's shown a bit of flair and imagination.

In all honesty I don't think the tide is anywhere near turning Dillo, it's just a simple case of Liverpool underachieving and Everton overachieving IMO

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Originally Posted by Conor74

In the meantime, Liverpool are paying dearly for the folly of selling their best player, bringing in yet another defensive manager, hinging everything around a midfielder who is sporadically good (good in the England 5-Germany 1 game, missing for a few years, good last season etc. etc.), and hoping a striker who never played in England would ignite everything - Cisse being this year's Harry Kewell, or El Hadji Diouf, or Paul Stewart, or John Durnin. So far it has failed, the only silver lining being the relatively good form of Xavi Alonso.

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First of all, lets get realistic here. Everton have had no injury problems so far this season, Liverpool have been decimated. You take the key players, equivelant to what Liverpool have out injured, out of any Premiership side and they would all struggle, even Chelsea. You are only as good as your strikers you know, and at the moment, Liverpool have none!

The core of Liverpool's team has been missing for the bulk of this season. Gerrard is just back and rushed back at that. The two main strikers, Cisse and Baros, who is having a pretty good season, are both out injured. Nunez hasn't even played yet, injured. Garcia, Josemi, and Traore are now injured as well. This is on top of Kirklands early season absence, and Smicer's pre-season injury. I think Alonso and Gerrard have played about 3 games together. Just as one comes back, another first teamer, or two, is out. There is no flow or consistency because of this. Liverpool have yet to field their best 11 this season.

Benitez cannot be blamed for the lack of cover in the squad, as he was left a club in dissaray by Houllier. He has said himself he is not interested in signing stop-gaps, instead he intends only to sign players capable of going straight into the first team. I'll judge Benitez in May, there will be signings next month. As for Moyes, he is doing a fantastic job, but punching above his weight. Wait for the injuries and watch the toffees melt. Take Bent and Gravesen out, and they're screwed......although I do think that Everton will win the upcoming merseyside derby as Liverpool simply don't have the players available at the moment.

Just a few points:
Liverpool didn't sell their best player. Owen sold himself, he wanted to go.

Benitez isn't a defensive coach.

They haven't been basing their play around Gerrard this season for the simple reason that he's been injured for most of it. What Liverpool are you watching?!

Cisse played 14 games. How can you label a player a flop after 14 games?! I can remember a certain Thierry Henry being less than impressive in his first 6 months at Arsenal. In fact, he was completely useless. I'll reserve judgement on Cisse when he has settled on merseyside and into Benitez's style of play, like any knowledgable football fan would.

What exactly do you want the poll to be, and I will add it.[/QUOTE]


Put up a poll as to which Merseyside team will finish highest this season Gary.

As for $Leon$, he is just a sh!t stirer. I've seen people banned on this forum for a lot less. :) Hint hint...

Too many sad scousers replying for my liking :p ! Unlike us blues, yer all prepared to settle for second best. Houllier has had ye brainwashed for long enough. Get with the times, Liverpool are a shambles. Think of the great Pool teams of the past. The club is in disarrray. Let's face it, Rafa has one hell of a job on his hands!

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Originally Posted by $Leon$

sorry thought this was foot.ie not foot.co.uk
if i wanted to read cr@p about the dominance or lack of it from one english club or another i'd go else where and read it.
this country is once again becoming more and more over run with english.
this time the plantation is a slow one.
move the odd few over one by one and spread them throughout the country.
(this isn't the same as irish goin to engerland to find work)
the reason so many irish people went to engerland to find work was due to the fact that the brits came over here and raped our country.
the new plantation takes the form of a slow brain wash.
polute irish kids minds with uk based tv stations and music.
why is it that u can get the bbc in ireland but can't get rte in england?
answer: british government plan to retake control of our country.

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$Leon$, this is a general football thread. If you dont want to talk about football outside Ireland stay on the domestic EL sections. However, I would agree with you that Premiership football is a new form of colonialism.

Anyhow, I agree with Dillo that the tide has turned on Merseyside. However, I think this has more to do with Liverpool's decline than Everton's rejuvenation as a club. I think if Everton were to lose David Moyes or a couple of players they will lose their momentum very quickly. Therefore, I think the Everton bubble could easily burst. On the other hand, Liverpool are in terminal decline. Things have got increasingly worse in the past 3 years. At least when Roy Evans was manager Liverpool were the third best team in the league. Nowadays they are well behind Arsenal, Chelsea and ManUre. Even Newcastle are probably closer to challenging for the title than Liverpool. I heard the club is planning on building a new stadium which means there will be little in the way of transfer funds available. Therefore, I think Liverpool will get worse before they get better. Today's newspapers have reports that Gerrard could be on his way to Chelsea again. As for Cisse, I never rated him. He was indicative of the sort of player that Houllier placed his faith in. This is a man who turned down the offer to sign Damien Duff relatively cheaply. The current Liverpool team is just not good enough. I honestly dont believe that any of the current team would have made any of the great teams of the 1980s. Prior to 1993, ManUre had waited 26 years since their last league title. Its not inconceivable that Liverpool may have to wait a similar length of time. Its 14 and half years and counting.

Whos to say Everton wont take over as the dominant force on Merseyside? Maybe Liverpool wouldnt be in their current predicament if they had the foresight to lure David Moyes from Preston a couple of year ago. Instead they have persisted with foreign managers who pack their team full of foreign mercenaries.

Well normally do not contribute to threads about Brit football on here, but as it is the city of Liverpool which is more Irish than any other part of GB I thought why not.

Everton should finish ahead of Liverpool this season in the Premiership if they invest some of the Rooney transfer money wisely in the transfer window.
Liverpool currently have no strikers, if they do not acquire one soon they will struggle. This business of completely dismissing a ground share with Everton out of hand without examining the feasibility of it could back to bite them on the bum. With costs spiralling with their projected new stadium, ( you can tell they have Irish ancestry over there with this issue alone), wouldn't they better off getting Everton to make a small contribution to the building of this uberstadion and give them one end and maybe one side for corporate boxes etc.?

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I would agree with you that Premiership football is a new form of colonialism.

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thats exactly what i was tryin to say.
thanx

Let's get a few things into perspective here. How often in the course of the Premiership years have Everton finished above Liverpool? Sorry, stupid question. To suggest that they may do so this year is a bit premature also.

Everton are currently top club on Merseyside if you're to go by the table, but the table does not take into account the factors that are contributing to this unusual scenario. Everton have, by and large, the same squad that struggled last season, with a couple of useful additions to fill the void left by Shrek. There is a continuity at Goodison which Liverpool haven't had from last season. The fact that they were considered nothing more than relegation fodder once Shrek departed has benefited Everton. The players then had something to prove and Moyes has obviously played on this public belief to instill a siege mentality within the players to perform in the manner they have. It's a measure of how good a manager Moyes is, but there is a limit to what he can do with so many average footballers and Everton's slide won't be long forthcoming.

Like 4tothefloor said, any team with equivalent injuries to Liverpool's would struggle. Everton have yet to be hit with any sort of injury crisis and if a point arrives in the season where even Gravesen alone is out of the team then they will suffer. For Conor74 to say Gerrard is "sporadically good" is a bit off the mark :confused: To say he is consistently brilliant and sporadically below par(which in his case is better than most other players' general level!) is more precise and I'm sure the majority of people will vouch for that.

I also think it is best to reserve judgement on Cisse until next season and to compare him to the players Conor74 mentioned is plainly ridiculous. John Durnin for one never played in Liverpool's first team; Harry Kewell is a wide man; Paul Stewart had already tasted English football and was a midfielder, and to compare anybody to Diouf is an insult of the highest order. The P.M said that Cisse is indicative of a player Houllier placed his faith in; but Benitez himself had wanted him for Valencia and a lack of funds to purchase him and others hastened his subsequent departure to Liverpool. To call the foreign lads at the club mercenaries is also a cheap shot P.M :) Every move in football is tied up with money and to label the Liverpool lads as mercenaries, is to label all footballers as such. Is it not a case of players bettering themselves by moving to a bigger club? I think it is in Alonso's, Josemi's and Cisse's cases (Luis Garcia is obviously an exception).

Let bluenoses like Dillo not get ahead of themselves. Everton should be given due credit for their current lofty position, but dizziness is hard to stave off when not accustomed to such altitude. ;) Its only November and things shouldn't be judged til May. A bit of strengthening in the window and Liverpool shall remain(as always) as Merseyside's top football club.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

This business of completely dismissing a ground share with Everton out of hand without examining the feasibility of it could back to bite them on the bum. With costs spiralling with their projected new stadium, ( you can tell they have Irish ancestry over there with this issue alone), wouldn't they better off getting Everton to make a small contribution to the building of this uberstadion and give them one end and maybe one side for corporate boxes etc.?

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They are 110% correct in dismissing a ground share with Everton. Tell me this - why should such a great club like Liverpool share their ground with such a mediocre club like Everton, and in the process allow Everton to benefit from the revenue of a 60,000 seater stadium, which would thus practically leave both clubs on a level footing competitively? Just as Inter and AC Milan are?

Why should a club who are still the most successful english club of all time, share with a club who are relegation fodder every second season? Why should a club whose ambitions are on a different level, share with a club who are content to survive?

If you want to compare the two clubs, Everton are a mickey mouse club in comparison to what Liverpool have achieved. They have never finished above Liverpool in the premiership. Yet there are people that think there is a legitimate case for handing Everton a 60,000 seater stadium on a plate! After Liverpool did all the planning etc. The whole point of building a new stadium is to gain a competitive advantage, or at least to be able to compete on an equal footing. This is also true of Arsenals move.

So why let Everton join the premiership elite? What have Everton done to deserve a 60,000 seater stadium? If you were a director of Liverpool FC, would you be for groundsharing with Everton? I don't think so! There will be no groundshare, because Liverpool are not stupid. Everton can **** off and build their own stadium, not that they have the money...

BTW, the investment in the stadium doesn't affect the transfer kitty. It's a seperate project completely, which will be paid for mainly by sponsers and projected income from ticket sales, and dare I say it, regular champions league football. The cost will be paid back over 25-30 years, or something like that.

By the way, JoeSemi - terrible choice for a username, if you don't mind me saying!

I have to say, I have never seen a worse full-back than Josemi in my life, at that level. The man is completely useless. He has no pace, no turn, is a rash tackler, and very poor passer of the ball. His positional sense is laughable, and his marking from set-pieces is abysmal. He also keeps giving away stupid frees, from which Liverpool keep conceding goals. He's basically a stop gap signing who won't be around for too long. Finnan would have been the first choice right-back long ago except he is needed as a midfielder at the moment. I think he'll play full-back from now on though.

You're going to have to change that username!

[QUOTE=4tothefloor]They are 110% correct in dismissing a ground share with Everton. Tell me this - why should such a great club like Liverpool share their ground with such a mediocre club like Everton, and in the process allow Everton to benefit from the revenue of a 60,000 seater stadium, which would thus practically leave both clubs on a level footing competitively? Just as Inter and AC Milan are?]

Ok what I am suggesting is that Everton partly fund the stadium especially as costs are spiralling out of control . Everton cannot afford to build their own stadium. They may be able to cover the cost overruns on the projected Anfield II. Besides which Everton, if you know your history, were originally at home in Anfield.

You may recall the FAI have no where to play because the Bertie Bowl costs began spiralling out of control before a sod was dug.

[QUOTE=4tothefloor] Why should a club who are still the most successful english club of all time, share with a club who are relegation fodder every second season? Why should a club whose ambitions are on a different level, share with a club who are content to survive? ]
Practicalities.... to move things closer to home Shamrock Rovers are the most successful club in Irish history and yet they are currently relying on St. Pat's to put a roof over their heads.

Back in the 1950's Liverpool were sh1t and Everton were the top dogs. These things become cyclical.

[QUOTE=4tothefloor]If you want to compare the two clubs, Everton are a mickey mouse club in comparison to what Liverpool have achieved. They have never finished above Liverpool in the premiership. Yet there are people that think there is a legitimate case for handing Everton a 60,000 seater stadium on a plate! After Liverpool did all the planning etc. The whole point of building a new stadium is to gain a competitive advantage, or at least to be able to compete on an equal footing. This is also true of Arsenals move.]

If Everton partly fund the stadium and save Liverpool FC some money it is in their best interests to let them move in. Sometimes what is in the best interests of one club can be giving the other a helping hand. Witness St Patrick's Athletic providing a home for Rovers and Shelbourne doing so for Dublin City in an EL context.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

So why let Everton join the premiership elite? What have Everton done to deserve a 60,000 seater stadium? If you were a director of Liverpool FC, would you be for groundsharing with Everton? I don't think so! There will be no groundshare, because Liverpool are not stupid. Everton can **** off and build their own stadium, not that they have the money... ]

Everton could qualify for the Champions League this season. They have a reasonable squad of players and one of the best young managers in the game. Their days of paupery could soon be at an end. And with their potential new wealth , if I could get Everton to pay some of the overheads and possibly rent money for a few years and I was looking at the bottom line it could become a very attractive option indeed. These people in charge of football clubs are business men first. The petty disputes between fans and who has the greater history won't satisfy the club's bankers.

[BTW, the investment in the stadium doesn't affect the transfer kitty. It's a seperate project completely, which will be paid for mainly by sponsers and projected income from ticket sales, and dare I say it, regular champions league football. The cost will be paid back over 25-30 years, or something like that.

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Did I mention the transfer kitty ? and by the way any funds belonging to a club is like pockets in a jacket . If it doesn't come from the outside right hand pocket it is coming from the inside one. Either way it is another bit of club money.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

By the way, JoeSemi - terrible choice for a username, if you don't mind me saying!

I have to say, I have never seen a worse full-back than Josemi in my life, at that level. The man is completely useless. He has no pace, no turn, is a rash tackler, and very poor passer of the ball. His positional sense is laughable, and his marking from set-pieces is abysmal. He also keeps giving away stupid frees, from which Liverpool keep conceding goals. He's basically a stop gap signing who won't be around for too long. Finnan would have been the first choice right-back long ago except he is needed as a midfielder at the moment. I think he'll play full-back from now on though.

You're going to have to change that username!

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"He came from Malaga, he's the Spanish Carragher, Josemi oh oh, Josemi......", the chant went at the start of the season! Not echoing round the Kop these days for obvious reasons, but to say he's the worst full back you've seen is a bit harsh. He has his limitations and has been exposed for a number of goals this season, but the lad deserves a chance like everybody else settling in to a new breed of football. Its without question that Finnan should be given an extended run at right full and this should start from today with Josemi injured. Let's reserve full judgement until he has a full season behind him.

There is a slight difference in spelling between mine and Josemi's! I'm goin to stick by the name, like the player himself once he remians giving 100% in the red shirt.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

I have to say, I have never seen a worse full-back than Josemi in my life

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I think that is very unfair. If you were watching the rugby at the weekend you would have seen that the Argentinian full-back is worse than Josemi.

4tothefloor you'd want to examine your conscience. The lad from "Limerick" :o describing Everton as a mediocre, Mickey Mouse club. I think you're taking the Michael Mouse!
The People's Club in existence since 1878 is one of the biggest and most passionate around with a fantastic fanbase. Steeped in history and tradition, Everton Football Club last year celebrated it's centenary year- 100 years in the top flight!! The toffees are the longest such serving member- a record all Evertonians are extremely proud of. Not too many can boast such a reputation.
Content to survive you say??! We're not talking about Limerick FC here lad. Third in the league after 15 games!

JoeSemi you make a little sense but not a whole lot either. Ye lads are talking through yer rectum. You talk about average footballers at Everton! Not doing too bad of a job are they? And what's at Liverpool when you take away Gerard and Alonso?? Whatever premature dizziness the Goodison faithful may have endured I think it's fair to say (excuse the pun!) the Toffees are sticking at the top :p . Gone are the days of Everton fighting for survival.

The sun shines out of Stevie G's backside as far as the scousers are concerned...... "You're just too good to be blue" my ar$e! We don't need or want that lad. Tommy G's our engine :cool: ! As for Josemi, the lad is a joke. Just compare his ability to that of Tony Hibbert's! You talk about strenghtening in the January transfer window. Use have that luxury, we don't. That's the difference. But it'll make little difference because come next May, it'll be Red proping Blue in the table... you mark my words!

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Originally Posted by Conor74

I take it you are as passionate about not allowing Croke park to be used by other sports for similar reasons...why should they anyway...they did all the planning...they get bigger crowds...etc. etc. etc..

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Croke Park is a national matter which involves our national team and our national game. It also involves bucket-loads of taxpayers money. It's an issue that some would say is bordering on bigotry from the GAA's point of view. Liverpool and Everton are two privately owned clubs. I don't see the comparison, at all.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Would have thought that if it makes economic sense it makes economic sense and the number of trophies Liverpool may have won in past generations that many of their fans now will barely remember shouldn't muddy the waters... It's a question of finance. No point building a white elephant and the city of Liverpool hardly needs two new stadia.

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From Liverpools point of view, the building of the stadium is a project that is hoped will bring the club to the same level as Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal in terms of match day income. Even outside of that, at the moment they still can't compete with Utd (a plc), Chelsea (Abramovich) or Arsenal (who have an unreal money-saving youth set-up). So why would you even think of allowing another club into the mix? No way in hell, it ain't gonna happen. It might make short term economic sense to share, but it doesn't make long-term sense, not from Liverpool's perspective anyway.

Liverpool are actually open to the idea of Everton RENTING Anfield II. But only renting, not sharing. That would basically mean the stadium would be called Anfield, have red seats all around, and would be branded as Liverpool FC's stadium. There wouldn't be a hint of blue in sight, or no Tony Cottee suites behind the stands either! Everton would pay Liverpool rent to use it......now that would be priceless, all the Evertonians having to stomach that :p Can't see it happening, can't see Everton going for that, so therefore, there will be no groundshare. If the UK government decided to build the stadium for the clubs, Liverpool might just consider it a little....just a little though, before politely telling Everton to **** off!

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Originally Posted by Dillo

4tothefloor you'd want to examine your conscience. The lad from "Limerick" :o describing Everton as a mediocre, Mickey Mouse club. I think you're taking the Michael Mouse!
The People's Club in existence since 1878 is one of the biggest and most passionate around with a fantastic fanbase. Steeped in history and tradition, Everton Football Club last year celebrated it's centenary year- 100 years in the top flight!! The toffees are the longest such serving member- a record all Evertonians are extremely proud of. Not too many can boast such a reputation.
Content to survive you say??! We're not talking about Limerick FC here lad. Third in the league after 15 games!

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Firstly, I was a Liverpool fan before I ever set foot at a Limerick match, although not by much. Secondly, what has Limerick FC got to do with a comparison of Liverpool and Everton? When you compare Evertons achievements ( :confused: :D) to Liverpools, Everton are a mickey mouse outfit, in comparison. Simple really. However, when you compare Longford town's achievements to Limericks, well there isn't much of a difference. Yer doing well now, but when I first started supporting Limerick, you were where we are now. However, things are about to change, so we'll see who'll be laughing in a few years. Ditto for Liverpool and Everton - only a delusional fool would say that 'the tide is about to change'. We're beating Arsenal off the park with a patchwork team, yet we're finished and in 'terminal decline' :D

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Ye lads are talking through yer rectum.

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Lol, and then you go on to say.......

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The sun shines out of Stevie G's backside as far as the scousers are concerned...... "You're just too good to be blue" my ar$e! We don't need or want that lad.

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One of the best midfielders in the world. Watch Benitez build a team around Gerrard and Alonso, and weep....shur what am I saying, ye have Gravesen and, erm,.............erm, ahm,........Kilbane, yeah Kilbane and Gravesen - class :rolleyes:

BTW, no prizes are handed out after 15 games.....

If you know your history............ but it's quite obvious 4tothefloor doesn't know his! Everton, whether you like it or not are of the top five clubs in England. In terms of trophies won at least, our history is laced with triumph and glory. Only Liverpool :rolleyes: , ManUre :rolleyes: and Arsenal have won more league titles while our haul of five FA Cups is among the best in the country. Everton is of England's biggest club, dare I say the original big club! As for Stevie G, there's no denying he's a class act but a move to Chelsea is the only way he can achieve his ambitions. However our Dane Tommy G is another class act as evidenced by the Mancs recent monitoring of him. He's going nowhere though. Unlike Shrek, he's blue til he dies and when he dies ;) . As for Limerick.... you're having a laugh! Use are rooted in the First Division where ye belong and there's not a hope in hell yer ever going to catch us :p . Too fond of the eggchasing down there anyway.

Great points Dillo and Conor74. Maybe Everton would have set their own European sequence if it hadnt been for Liverpool fans running riot in the Heysel Stadium. As for the history of the two clubs, Everton were the original Irish club on Merseyside. Liverpool was for dare I say it, blue-noses like Robbie Fowler. It was the presence of players like Ronnie Whelan, Steve Heighway, Ray Houghton, Aldo, and Jim Beglin in the 80s that changed that trend.
On the other hand, Everton's reputation has perhaps been affected by the arrival of Walter Smith and a handful of former Rangers players in the late 90s. Thankfully, it would appear that normal service has resumed.