The Business of Sport

Theres an article in todays Irish Times where the writer Daire Whelan seems to think theres not much hope for LOI football pointing to the attendance figure of the recent FAI Cup Final. He points to the fact that the Armagh club championship GAA final nearly had as much at their game.


I dont agree with what hes saying as he doesnt seem to understand that FAI cup finals arent like GAA championships. I mean no Rovers, City or Bohs supporter is likely to go to a cup final not involving their team. It just doesnt happen in soccer. The league is more important. Different ethos.

Funnily enough he does point out that for the Longford v Waterford game 186,000 tuned in. Skys viewing figures for the Arsenal v Manchester Utd game was 134,000 in Ireland. Although Whelan tries to say that there was a lot of people watching the english game in pubs. I suppose LOI fans dont go out for a pint :rolleyes:

Related but not LOI: Attendances at Premiership games are 6% down on last season; Arsenal have failed to sell out a single home game so far this season.

What are you trying to say exactly?

That you honestly believe that more people watched Waterford-Longford than Manchester United-Arsenal??

That there is a basis to be optmistic over the fact that more people went to the Armagh club finals than the FAI cup final?

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

What are you trying to say exactly?

That you honestly believe that more people watched Waterford-Longford than Manchester United-Arsenal??

That there is a basis to be optmistic over the fact that more people went to the Armagh club finals than the FAI cup final?

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err, you got both your points wrong.

The ratings show more people watched Longford V Waterford than Aresnal v Man. Utd. Over 50,000 more.

And no more people didnt go to the Armagh club final.

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Originally Posted by eoinh

err, you got both your points wrong.

The ratings show more people watched Longford V Waterford than Aresnal v Man. Utd. Over 50,000 more.

And no more people didnt go to the Armagh club final.

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Then it just shows how relevant or accurate the ratings are.

You're dreaming if you think more people in this country watched the FAI cup final than the Manchester United game on the telly.

It's as erroneous a statistic as the Arsenal failing to sell out Highbury 'fact'. Arsenal haven't sold out the away allocation yet - for different reasons, not least price. But their home allocations are sell outs.

I'm no Premiership apologist but playing the old blindfolded-in-the-dark act doesn't do the National League here much credit.

By the way, the Armagh County final crowd was estimated at 8,000. Tyrone county final a fortnight ago had 10,000, but tomorrow's Cork hurling final could attract anything up to 25,000.

So what's your point again?

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

By the way, the Armagh County final crowd was estimated at 8,000. Tyrone county final a fortnight ago had 10,000, but tomorrow's Cork hurling final could attract anything up to 25,000.

So what's your point again?

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First of all I said that the Armagh County final nearly had as much as the FAI cup final. Read the post

That football competitions are not like GAA competitions. GAA's most important competitions are one off games. Football is mainly League action. Loads of Armagh people go their championship final but thats probably for many of them the only match they go.

No one would argue that marathon running for instance has a massive massive following because thousands turn out to watch the Dublin City marathon every year.

And no Arsenal havent sold out their home allocation at any League match this season.

If you think the ratings for TV arent correct then maybe you should tell the advertisers. To think that they are paying all those milions and they are getting it wrong. Are they mad or what :rolleyes:

I'm not responsible for your inability to understand the TV ratings. It's something you'll have to deal with yourself. But, for instance, it's generally accepted that a huge proportion of your 164,000 were zapping over and back to the ManU-Arsenal game. And probably paying more attention to it. Or that there was probably more than 200,000 people in pubs around the country watching the English fixture. And that doesn't take into account how many people the 'ratings' say watched the game at Old Trafford. That's just the way it is.

The GAA has a big tradition of neutrals attending matches. This extends from everything from run of the mill club matches, to the AI club finals to league and championship matches. That habit doesn't extend to football matches in this country.

Arsenal sell out their home allocation in every game. Check your facts because your wasting everyone's time otherwise.

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Originally Posted by eoinh

First of all I said that the Armagh County final nearly had as much as the FAI cup final. Read the post

That football competitions are not like GAA competitions. GAA's most important competitions are one off games. Football is mainly League action. Loads of Armagh people go their championship final but thats probably for many of them the only match they go.

No one would argue that marathon running for instance has a massive massive following because thousands turn out to watch the Dublin City marathon every year.

And no Arsenal havent sold out their home allocation at any League match this season.

If you think the ratings for TV arent correct then maybe you should tell the advertisers. To think that they are paying all those milions and they are getting it wrong. Are they mad or what :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

I'm not responsible for your inability to understand the TV ratings. It's something you'll have to deal with yourself. But, for instance, it's generally accepted that a huge proportion of your 164,000 were zapping over and back to the ManU-Arsenal game. And probably paying more attention to it. Or that there was probably more than 200,000 people in pubs around the country watching the English fixture. And that doesn't take into account how many people the 'ratings' say watched the game at Old Trafford. That's just the way it is.

The GAA has a big tradition of neutrals attending matches. This extends from everything from run of the mill club matches, to the AI club finals to league and championship matches. That habit doesn't extend to football matches in this country.

Arsenal sell out their home allocation in every game. Check your facts because your wasting everyone's time otherwise.

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Is it that you dont like being wrong or are you trying to argue those points to death !! :D

I dont think that Eoin meant to upset you so much but man ... you should try and deal with it a bit better :p

Spot the Arsé fan anyway, you do know that english attendance figures are widely accessible, it is not something you can hide or pull out of the sky. Get over it man.

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Originally Posted by A face

Is it that you dont like being wrong or are you trying to argue those points to death !! :D

I dont think that Eoin meant to upset you so much but man ... you should try and deal with it a bit better :p

Spot the Arsé fan anyway, you do know that english attendance figures are widely accessible, it is not something you can hide or pull out of the sky. Get over it man.

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I'm right AND I like arguing points to death.

I'm not upset, just making sure that yet more half truths and urban myths get bandied about as 'factual' common currency.

I'm not an Arsenal fan at all, I'm just right about their attendances. The away allocations haven't sold out - which puts a different slant on whatever point it is (and I still can't work it out) Eoin is trying to make.

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

The GAA has a big tradition of neutrals attending matches. This extends from everything from run of the mill club matches, to the AI club finals to league and championship matches. That habit doesn't extend to football matches in this country.

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This is what i said in my original post.

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that a huge proportion of your 164,000 were zapping over and back to the ManU-Arsenal game

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Im sure it was in the other direction as well but more people who only watched one of the matchs decided to watch the FAI Cup final. FACT

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Originally Posted by eoinh

Im sure it was in the other direction as well but more people who only watched one of the matchs decided to watch the FAI Cup final. FACT

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I'm sure you'll be happy in Never Never Land.

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

I'm sure you'll be happy in Never Never Land.

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LOL

This from someone who has said he doesnt believe that viewing figures for TV are right. Im sure Cadburys will be devestated after pouring in all that money sponsering Coronation Street.

And the logic of someone who says that people who start off watching the FAI Cup final will switch between that and a Man UTD and Arsenal of London game but it doesnt happen the other way. How would you know that? Unless you have some proof there is no way of speculating. They are just wild shots in the dark otherwise.

You sound like a grayite staring madly into the premiership headlights.


I wonder when Cork City beat Malmo did you think "the swedish league must be terrible" because you have no other basis on which to judge football besides the premiership.

You need to turn off your TV and actually go to some matchs. Even go abroad and watch some and compare standards across Europe. Dont let TV, the media or forums dictate what you think.

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Originally Posted by eoinh

You sound like a grayite staring madly into the premiership headlights.

I wonder when Cork City beat Malmo did you think "the swedish league must be terrible" because you have no other basis on which to judge football besides the premiership.

You need to turn off your TV and actually go to some matchs. Even go abroad and watch some and compare standards across Europe. Dont let TV, the media or forums dictate what you think.

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Absolutely pathetic. You revert to stereotype distressingly quickly. You have no idea how I draw my judgements. All you can do is desperately sling the usual predictable mud.

The hilarious, gleeful and wonderful thing about your analogy is that its general irrelevance is exposed utterly by the fact that I have seen 5 Malmo games (live and in person) this season alone. And none of them were against Cork. :D :D :D :D So yeah, I must go abroad and compare some standards.

I don't particularly want to waste any more time with you as your reflex to hackneyed sterotype and stock-answer bull**** makes me tired. I'm not interested in provoking an 'emnity' with you online because I don't think you have anything original to say. Again, if you think more people in this country watched the FAI Cup final than the Arsenal game, you are dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Hmmm, aka dus, that name rings a bell...welcome to the world of the eircom league fans and away from fellows arguing about ManU or the Arse!! :D ;)

I will say this much to the Foot.ie fans, I agree with about 90% of this guys posts on the board that dare not speak its name...

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Howaya there Mister. I had to come lurk hoping that ye have a few heads here who might hear a thing or two about a thing or two going on in Merrion Square and what not. I haven't been hearing anything about the whole farce at all from my usual remote eyes and ears.

As you can see I've carried the love of a row over with me from the land of the mockeries.

:cool:

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Originally Posted by aka Dus

Arsenal sell out their home allocation in every game. Check your facts because your wasting everyone's time otherwise.

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Plenty of articles dealing with the decline in attendances at premiership matchs this season. The Times of London has covered it amongst others and as you can see they do mention Arsenal of London.

Not just on Merseyside either.


From the Times.


A few years ago they were like gold dust. Now, just a month and a half
into the Premiership season, evidence is emerging that tickets for top-flight
games are no longer out of reach of casual supporters as clubs struggle to
tempt fans away from their television sets and into their stadiums.

Of the 17 clubs who remained in the Premiership this year, 11 are
experiencing a decline in their average home attendances compared with
last season's figures. Although some small falls can be blamed on the overlap
with the end of the summer holidays when attendances are traditionally
slightly lower, the extent of the drop suggests the number of fans
attending England's biggest games may be past its peak.

The reason is almost certainly the Premier League's new TV deal, which, at the insistence of the European Union, has seen the number of live televised games rise from 96 to 138.

Even high-flying Arsenal have not been immune from the slowdown, recording
A two per cent drop in attendances compared with last season For the first
time in recent memory, tickets were put on general sale for their home
match against Middlesbrough on Aug 22 after tickets offered to the club's
'silver members' failed to produce the usual sell-out.

Can it be a coincidence that the Middlesbrough match was screened live by
Sky Sports on a Sunday afternoon?


Of the falls in the Premiership, the biggest has taken place at Everton, whose attendances are 10.6 per cent below last season's average. Oddly, home
crowds have declined steadily despite the club's improving league form,
culminating in their lowest crowd for their last Goodison Park game on
Sept 19 - again against Middlesbrough and again a match that was televised
live. This could well be a symptom of the 'Rooney factor', a protest vote by
fans at the way their prize asset was offloaded to Manchester United, though
the club's chief executive, Keith Wyness, believes it has more to do with the
Merseysiders' poor performances last season, when they narrowly escaped
relegation.

"The season before last we finished seventh, so we had record
season-ticket sales last season," he said. "Last season we finished 17th and sales went down. It's got nothing to do with the 'Rooney factor' at all."

With the exception of the big clubs, whose season-ticket sales guarantee a
capacity crowd for every home game, many Premiership clubs are looking to
similar marketing idea to keep their turnstiles busy. Only last Monday,
for example, Charlton took the drastic step of slashing the price of tickets
to £15 for their televised game against Blackburn.

Unpalatable it may be in the boardrooms, but the signs are that
the unswerving loyalty of fans can no longer be taken for granted.

Source

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Originally Posted by eoinh

Plenty of articles dealing with the decline in attendances at premiership matchs this season. The Times of London has covered it amongst others and as you can see they do mention Arsenal of London.

Even high-flying Arsenal have not been immune from the slowdown, recording
A two per cent drop in attendances compared with last season For the first
time in recent memory, tickets were put on general sale for their home
match against Middlesbrough on Aug 22 after tickets offered to the club's
'silver members' failed to produce the usual sell-out.

Source

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Oh dear. You really are a pitiful sort.

Here's a question that, believe me, is entirely rhetorical: Did Arsenal sell out the home allocation for the Middlesboro game or did Arsenal fail to sell out the home allocation to 'silver members' and instead sold it out by putting the tickets which the silver members did not take up on general sale?

I'm still wondering what your point is about the fact that there has been a (very) slight drop in attendances for many premiership clubs over the first 9 games of the season and what it has to do with the Eircom League?

Oh, and taking your info off a Manchester United fanzine...??? :eek: :eek: Won't your virgin Eircom League skin not scorch and sizzle when it comes into contact with such, ahem, "grayite" premiership hype?

To put the issue to rest, here are some selected highlights from the Irish Times article. The author makes the point that the viewing figures for the english match don't include people watching in pubs and he states that Arsenal haven't sold out any home games without elaborating on wheather it's home or away tickets not selling. I don't know what the author's sources for any of the information is so there is no point in arguing the issues with me. I can only reproduce what was printed.



Figures don't add up for National League
Daire Whelan

Arsenal have failed to sell out any of their home games this season - and this on foot of their imminent move to the 60,000-seater Ashburton Grove.

...

And if you wanted to know if one player really can put bums on seats - or take them off it in this case - the same survey found that Everton's home crowds have dropped 7,000 since Wayne Rooney left the club.

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But is it all doom and gloom? Television figures for last Sunday afternoon's fest of sport reveal a high number of people who stayed with the FAI Cup final - despite the big match at OId Trafford on satellite.

The second Test of the International Rules series captured, in this column's opinion, a relatively high viewership of 351,000 people which equated to a 9.3 rating or 49.4 per cent share. These are impressive figures, especially when taking into account the 36-point lead Ireland had from the first Test.

But, the big test was to come later that day when the Rules was finished and viewers had the choice of staying with Irish sport and watching the FAI Cup final or switching over to Sky Sports .

The result? Another surprisingly strong result for RTÉ. Only 164,000 turned off and 186,000 stayed to watch the National League product. Sky, meanwhile, recorded a 134,000 viewership in Ireland for their clash of Manchester United and Arsenal - although this figure only takes into account home viewing and does not reflect pub numbers.

So, taken at face value, despite the fact less than 10,000 bothered showing up on the day, in TV figures at least, RTÉ outscored Sky Sports by 52,000. The National League beating the Premiership. Now there's something you won't hear too often.


© The Irish Times

Yeah its a strange one. We are always complaining about lack of TV coverage. Now that we are getting more and more live matches and viewing figures are good, the amount of people attending matches every weekend are down.

Cork City are the exceptions to this rule.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

Arsenal have failed to sell out any of their home games this season - and this on foot of their imminent move to the 60,000-seater Ashburton Grove.

...

And if you wanted to know if one player really can put bums on seats - or take them off it in this case - the same survey found that Everton's home crowds have dropped 7,000 since Wayne Rooney left the club.

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Well a chara, I'd happily argue it with Daire Whelan but journalists don't like to run with provable or defendable stories. They just go with angles.

Arsenal will sell out Ashburton Grove to the same extent as they have Highbury. If the cost of away games in at Ashburton Grove remain as high as at Highbury then naturally away fans will vote with their feet. But they could sell 60,000 hgome tickets if they wanted to.

I would also say - even though I agree that football is ridiculously expensive and predicated on greed to a large extent in England and beyond - that the objectivity and usefulness of these stats are highly questionable. What can be proven by making a comparison between a handful of games of this season (I think the first 4 series were used) and last season in total? In actuality if you compare the matches played last season that have been played between the same clubs this season, the average attendance is only 0.7 per cent lower.

The point made is good as a principled vocalisation of the distaste many of us have for the Premiership's overt commercialism but the methods and results of this 'survey' are risible.