Irish international prospects - not looking good?

Taking stock of the whole picture over the last few weeks (that's the game at home and the lads that ply their trade across the water), things don't look too clever for the long term health of Irish international football.

Perhaps I was prompted by the sight of Robbie Keane scoring a quite delightful goal against Juventus in Los Angeles on Saturday night, that set me thinking where the next Robbie is coming from? We don't have anyone on the horizon right now who can be considered even close to possessing Robbie's ability. Shane Long is in the box seat but good as he is he has a long way to go before becoming the polished article at international level. Then there is Robbie Brady. As things stand Robbie is facing a stern examination against Premier League defences this season and will not really have the tools for the job (ie. his team mates at Hull City) to help him. Then there's James McClean et al and you go down from there. Strange as it sounds Anthony Stokes is looking more of a likely prospect as the weeks go by. Who would have thought that just a season ago, but that's perhaps the direction the Irish international situation is headed?

Whether Stokes will ever don an Irish shirt again is open to question and ditto Darron Gibson, who is sorely needed to assist James McCarthy in the Irish midfield. Yes there are some bright sparks like Seamus Coleman, Wes Hoolahan, Anthony Pilkington (hopefully) and the one we're all looking for great things from in the future - Jack Grealish. But all of that is looking quite a ways down the road.

Perhaps the most glaring problem affecting the current Irish set up is our complete disconnect with the modern progressive game. Just take a look at any of the pre-season games involving the myriad of clubs from around the world and you'll see that they all play a vastly different game from our version (ie lump the ball forward at all costs and play as few passes out of the back as possible........and then hope for the best because the law of averages says that you'll get a chance or two in any given game). And, unfortunately, there is no end in sight to this malaise, that I can see anyway?

I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.

Furthermore to see the likes of Enda Stevens, Kevin Doyle, Shane Duffy (quite soon leaving Everton on loan it appears) and Keith Fahey, to name but a few of a posse of highly thought of Irish talent, being moved on to a lower standard of football, is quite disconcerting indeed.

Pretty soon the qualifiers against Sweden and Austria will be upon us. Those two games will determine the future of Irish football, and national optimism, for the next few years. I fear we could be in for a long barren spell for the national team.

Is there any hope for the future?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Taking stock of the whole picture over the last few weeks (that's the game at home and the lads that ply their trade across the water), things don't look too clever for the long term health of Irish international football.

Perhaps I was prompted by the sight of Robbie Keane scoring a quite delightful goal against Juventus in Los Angeles on Saturday night, that set me thinking where the next Robbie is coming from? We don't have anyone on the horizon right now who can be considered even close to possessing Robbie's ability. Shane Long is in the box seat but good as he is he has a long way to go before becoming the polished article at international level.

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I'm not sure Robbie Keane is the best starting point for this conversation. He's a complete aberration - the way he emerged and systematically destroyed any and all goal scoring records which had stood in a green shirt for the previous fifty odd years. You're right that his successor is unlikely to emerge any time soon - the bigger problem might be even Shane Long's successor could struggle to breakthrough.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.

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'It's getting positively worse every year' doesn't stand up at all IMO. Back in the days clubs we're getting cleaned out every year was the really bad days. The improvements made over the last decade are phenomenal and only need to be reflected in how the international side now has several LOI graduates amongst its ranks, to show that the gap between LOI and the 'bigger leagues' (such as Scotland and Football League) is a lot smaller.

As has been pointed out, this year has been disappointing. But a closer look at the results is far more revealing - Drogheda lost narrowly to Malmo, who went on to thrash Hibs. St Pats losing to Vilnius was disappointing - but then Vilnius handily beat Pyunik (a side who beat Derry just a year after City's run to the second round) and just defeated Lech Poznan in their first leg. Sligo and Derry were always up against it against Molde and Trabzonspor.

You can't account for difficult draws, and you can't measure how co-efficient improvement has plateaued the kind of strides that can be made. Considering how largely poor, with some notable exceptions, LOI clubs performed year-in-year out in Europe, it's still remarkable clubs can skip the first preliminary stage - there by robbing them of a chance to gain handier co-efficient points - and go straight into a pot with sides claiming at least ten times the budget and/or ten times the fan base.

Likewise you can't brush off Shamrock Rovers' achievement as some mad exception - their run was the culmination of several eye-catching European performances by a variety of teams.

The improvement of the domestic league is evident, even with a local population who largely ignore it. The larger problem is regardless if it's domestic or a British league, the coaching of players is always going to come out short compared to continental Europe.

I do agree with part of your point (or, really, Ray Houghton's point) but I'd love to see another league in Europe producing such great strides in quality for so few paying customers. If it's to improve more, then central investment combined with Ireland's football made people giving more than a passing interest would be a decent start.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Is there any hope for the future?

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Yes, there's plenty of it. You must have a hell of a hangover for all this doom-mongering. We should have beaten Sweden and Austria and we should be well in control of second place of our group. Even if we don't qualify I'm excited for the new manager taking over. We have some great young talent and some excellent current players who will be around for years to come (unless they fall out with the manager). If we're lucky a new Robbie will emerge from nowhere (like the original one seemed to do). But if not, we will have the players to adapt and we have a heap of forwards who are more than capable of putting away a chance if its presented to them.

It is a bit of a low ebb for us at the moment. we have had good underage success at 19s a few yrs ago but based on a team effort with no one emerging from that team that got to the semis in the euros who is ever going to be a champions league player. If you look at the best players we have had at under 19/17 in the last few yrs who are still with top clubs it is nearly impossible to see them breaking through. What chance sam byrne ever been centre forward for utd? Alex O Hanlon been a no 10 for liverpool?Jack Byrne anchoring midfield at man city? These are outstanding footballers who are doing great to get into their club sides at underage level but it seems fanciful to think of them as first team players. Jack grealish might break through for villa but wood he get a look in at a big club? Conor henderson conor clifford and conor hourihane(who was named in top 10players at the euro under 17s) were all same age group with 3 premiership clubs and noted for their technical ability. Now they are 22/23 one played in league 2 on saturday, another sat on the bench watching him and the third has no club at the beginning of the season.

Too many Conors.

??

Haven't we had this thread umpteen times before? Even this year, probably...

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Is there any hope for the future?

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Yep...

http://footballrepublic.ie/wp-conten...ico-future.jpg

...;)

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Strange as it sounds Anthony Stokes is looking more of a likely prospect as the weeks go by. Who would have thought that just a season ago, but that's perhaps the direction the Irish international situation is headed?

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This isn't particularly new though. Robbie, as SVD said, is an abberation, the best goalscorer this country has ever produced by a mile. Stokes is quite clearly the most natural gifted and technically adept striker we've produced since Robbie, but it's the other aspects of his game and personality that have stopped him fulfilling anything close to his potential.

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I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.

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The domestic clubs punch above their weight. They knock out teams with budgets multiples of theirs in countries where the cost of living is infinitely less.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

'It's getting positively worse every year' doesn't stand up at all IMO. Back in the days clubs we're getting cleaned out every year was the really bad days. The improvements made over the last decade are phenomenal and only need to be reflected in how the international side now has several LOI graduates amongst its ranks, to show that the gap between LOI and the 'bigger leagues' (such as Scotland and Football League) is a lot smaller.

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I'd go one further and say the number of LOI graduates in the Irish set-up clearly goes to show that the type of football being played in the League of Ireland prepares players far better for the rigors of top-class football than the English feeder system. Your Boltons and your Stoke Cities may have more talented players but they don't teach their players to play the way Irish clubs do.

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As has been pointed out, this year has been disappointing. But a closer look at the results is far more revealing - Drogheda lost narrowly to Malmo, who went on to thrash Hibs. St Pats losing to Vilnius was disappointing - but then Vilnius handily beat Pyunik (a side who beat Derry just a year after City's run to the second round) and just defeated Lech Poznan in their first leg. Sligo and Derry were always up against it against Molde and Trabzonspor.

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Not to mention Pats surrendered a winning position against Vilnius. Any other year they wouldn't have done so.

Zak and John Joe need haircuts.

Apparently John Joe hasn't decided if he wants to play for Ireland or Spain. I think we should get our EPN (Elite Player Mentor) on the case.

I don't think it's fair to judge the general technical standard of Irish players solely on the national team. Trapattoni has set up the team to play an attritional game, with no emphasis on possession, favouring a certain central midfielder who is so technically limited that he slows down the entire team when we have the ball. Against Austria, we played with two out-and-out target-men (three if you include Walters on the wing) which no modern tactician would ever contemplate. It's near-impossible for any group of players to look technically competent under these circumstances.

There has been plenty of technical ability at underage levels in the last few years. The U-21s won in Italy and beat Holland recently enough, and most of that age group reached the European semis in 2011. The problem is that players need game-time at a decent level to make genuine progress in their careers, and therein lies the problem. The EPL clubs are sourcing higher-profile players at greater expense. This transfer window alone, Sunderland signed a current Italian international, Norwich signed two Dutch internationals, while Stoke signed Holland's current left-back and a Barcelona fringe defender. All of these players are in direct competition with Irish players for their starting places, despite these players (McClean, Hoolahan, Wilson) being full internationals themselves. Ten years ago, Leeds challenged for the title - from that squad, Dacourt and Bakke were the only players from non-Anglophone nations, and at one time, there were five Irish internationals at the club. That won't happen again in the near future. The EPL is not a nurturing environment for Irish players any more, and that doesn't look like changing anytime soon, as it becomes increasingly a billionaire's playground.

Looking at the current Croatian squad, they have representatives from nine different European leagues, including their own. It would be much better for Irish players to follow McGeady and O'Dea's examples and get out of the English system, because the trend is being set for good Irish (and English) players to drop to the technically abysmal Championship level just to get first-team football. It's a pity that Henderson and Clifford haven't been sounded out by Continental clubs, but then, most Continental clubs don't scout young Irish players because they just assume they'll end up in the UK.

The obvious solution would be for young Irish players to develop in a strong domestic league, where they can play in Europe every year, and clubs can name their price from interested clubs in bigger leagues. But that's unlikely to happen any time soon, for reasons that are better discussed elsewhere.

Good last post, but surely if Henderson & Clifford were deemed good enough for the current Eng.Championship/Div.'2' they would be readily snapped up as there's enough clubs there with financial problems looking to sign decent-ish players on the cheap?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Good last post, but surely if Henderson & Clifford were deemed good enough for the current Eng.Championship/Div.'2' they would be readily snapped up as there's enough clubs there with financial problems looking to sign decent-ish players on the cheap?

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They'd be looking to sign decent 'experienced' players on the cheap, that's the thing. Any team in that league could conceivably end up in a relegation battle, so managers are going to favour grizzled pros who have seen it all before, rather than blooding youngsters, especially 'creative' ones. Although Henderson was on trial at Ipswich, and given what I've seen of him for the U-21s, and looking at Ipswich's other midfielders, I really can't figure out how he was passed over.

I would have said that there were worse times in terms of Irish players coming through in the past 20 years....
Take 1997 for example as a low point.... squeezing what we could out of likes of Townsend 34, Houghton 35, Cascarino 35.... playing the likes of Jon Goodman and Mickey Evans upfront.... not to mention putting David Connolly on a pedestal as our great white hope....

Things could be worse at present for us....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Grafter

I would have said that there were worse times in terms of Irish players coming through in the past 20 years....
Take 1997 for example as a low point.... squeezing what we could out of likes of Townsend 34, Houghton 35, Cascarino 35.... playing the likes of Jon Goodman and Mickey Evans upfront.... not to mention putting David Connolly on a pedestal as our great white hope....

Things could be worse at present for us....:rolleyes:

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Very true. 96/97 was a dark period. Mad to think that in the first 'B' game in 1998, we played Finnan, Dunne, Kinsella, Duff and Keane - all of whom were uncapped at that stage. Just shows how quickly things can change.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

Very true. 96/97 was a dark period. Mad to think that in the first 'B' game in 1998, we played Finnan, Dunne, Kinsella, Duff and Keane - all of whom were uncapped at that stage. Just shows how quickly things can change.

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Keane and Duff were pretty hot properties though. Kennedy too around that time, and Given.

I don't think there's a need to be too pessimistic about our chances over the next 5-8 years (beyond that time frame it's impossible to predict what the team would look like) - while we've lost a few outright stars (Given, Dunne, Duff) there seems to be enough young talent already established to keep us competitive, with the possibility of some stars still to emerge - remember, we only need to be able to put out 11 good players at a time:
- In goal, yes we don't have anybody the calibre of Given as yet but we do have some solid established options to choose from - Forde, Westwood, Randolph, with the possibility of adding Mark Bunn and Rob Elliott and also the chance that Stephen Henderson might establish himself at West Ham or elsewhere
- In defence, Seamus Coleman can now be viewed as a genuine star and if Joey O'Brien can be brought back into the fold we have both cover for him and flexibility should we want to play him at right-wing. In central defence, we may be short a bit of depth, but Clark looks like he'll be around for a while, particularly if he reduces his errors, St. Ledger should still be playing in five years' time - we have Richard Keogh and Darren O'Dea as back-up with the possibility of Shane Duffy, Tommie Hoban and Noe Baba breaking through. At left-back, Marc Wilson will be around for a while and Bradley Garmston just got some decent loan game time at Colchester and may push for a squad place at West Brom this season - if he makes the grade we may end up with the fastest full-back combination in international football!
- Midfield is where our future looks brightest - Robbie Brady is fast becoming a star, James McCarthy has started to really deliver on his promise and Aiden McGeady is now at the peak of his career. We can use Coleman as back-up for Brady, with McClean challenging McGeady for left-wing, along with Sean Scannell, who's still not 23 yet. We have a number of realistic options in terms of partnering McCarthy - Hendrick, Pilkington, & Meyler; a talented player in exile, Gibson, who may be back once Trap leaves; some exciting young emerging talent in Jack Grealish, Samir Carruthers and Sean Murray; and the possibility of a couple of players emulating Hoolahan & Andrews by establishing themselves in the Premier League later in their career - Garvan and Quinn.
- Up front, of course it's going to be a loss when Robbie Keane calls it a day, but let's not panic yet - he's likely going to continue banging them in for us for the next three years at least; Anthony Stokes looked really lively against Ross County and seems ready to lead the line for Celtic, so if he gets his personal stuff sorted out he could yet be Keano's immediate successor; Leon Best returned with a very good goal against Derby and is still only 26; Shane Long is still scoring reasonably regularly, if not prolifically; if Paddy Madden can carry over his record from last season to the Championship, he will be in contention for a place within the next year; and by the time Keane does retire, one or more of Graham Burke, Michael Drennan, Sean Maguire or Philip Roberts, who scored on his debut for Falkirk yesterday, could become strikers of note.
- And finally, over this 5-8 year time scale there will be any number of players working their way through the English academy system, or starting off professional careers at LOI clubs with the prospect of moving to England in their early 20s, or playing for our underage national teams, or kids who were just inspired by Euro 2012 qualification to become really serious about their football who may emerge to become the backbone of our team in the medium term.

Interesting you bring up Coleman because I think he will really prosper under Martinez, as I think the reason Coleman took so long to establish himself for Everton is the same reason John O'Shea did so well at Manchester United, which is that Moyes always needed a defensive right back to balance Leighton Baines - the best attacking full back in the Premier League not named Ashley or Patrice - so Hibbard or Neville always got the nod. Martinez, as we saw at Wigan, gives his full backs free reign to attack but has never had players good enough to do both attacking and defensive duties well. Coleman and Baines are a big step up for him. Coleman will thrive under Martinez whereas Baines will pretty much do what he always has. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Coleman move up to a top club in the next couple of years, either in England or Europe.

Charlie has mentioned in the past that young players who go to England don't often have the physicality that is needed to cope with first team football at the higher levels. Added to this, is the unbelievable number of foreign signings as teams look for quick ways to achieve success.

This has created limited opportunities for many young talented players to succeed early on in their careers. For me, someone who epitomises how our future players might develop is Alan Judge. He was let go by a Premiership team went down a few divisions and now having done his apprenticeship is now on the way back up.
I think this is the way things will be from now on and it means we will need to be patient with the youngsters who are coming through.

Edit: Judge seems to have been influential at the weekend.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...s-8745499.html

The big countries have ups and downs. Countries like Ireland are heavily dependent on a batch of players coming through like 1998 when Duffer, Keano and a few others broke into our team. I would agree that we don't seem to have players of that calibre, but this isn't the full story...the game has changed greatly over the past decade or so. Back in 1998, the Premiership was only really beginning to embrace big name imports. Clubs like Leeds were in or around the best teams in the League and they had mostly Irish and English players. Now, clubs like United, Chelsea, city and arsenal have some of the top young talents in the game, while many consider Liverpool to have the best academy in England and possibly as good an academy as Barca. These clubs have kids from all over the world.

This sounds utterly depressing, but we will always produce top players, just like Wales have with Bale. It might be that it will be a lad like Hendrick who comes through at a less heralded club, or it will be a young guy from the domestic game who takes his chance a la Paul McGrath or Roy Keane, or it will be one of the young lads at big clubs like Jack Byrne or Alex O'hanlon.

Speaking of talents to keep an eye out for, I see Daniel cleary captained Liverpool to winning the Milk Cup. O'hanlon played as well, but Cleary seems to have been excellent.