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As one of the comments in the article states, the real breakthrough will be the day when a gay footballer would be as unremarkable as a black player, but Manchester United's Anders Lindegaard has arguably become the most prominent player to discuss the issue. Presumably he has the full backing of both Ferguson and United for his comments, which would lessen the taboo in the global game.
Matt Jarvis poses for the front cover of Britain's best-selling gay magazine: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...e-8437874.html
Quote:
The West Ham and England footballer Matt Jarvis has posed for the cover of Britain's best-selling gay magazine in an attempt to crush one of the game's last remaining stigmas.
The married winger is only the third footballer to appear on the cover of Attitude in its 19-year history. David Beckham, who appeared in 2002, and Freddie Ljungberg who followed four years later, led the way.
Jarvis, 26, told Attitude that homosexuality was now "everyday life" and not "something that's going to be a shock". He added: "I'm sure there are many footballers who are gay, but when they decide to actually come out and say it, it is a different story. It's one that I'm sure they've thought about many times. But it's a hard thing for them to do," he said.
That view is vindicated by a recent study by the University of Staffordshire, that suggested the majority of fans would welcome players coming out, with 40 per cent of fans blaming clubs and agents for keeping gay footballers in the closet.
Jarvis said that times have changed and it is more likely that an openly gay footballer would receive the support he needed now. "There'd be support everywhere within the football community, whether it be players, fans or within the PFA [Professional Footballers' Association]. There would definitely be groups of people who would be supportive and help them through it," he said.
Previous case histories tell a different story. In 1990 Justin Fashanu – the first black £1m footballer, who played for Norwich, Nottingham Forest and Hearts – suffered extended abuse after coming out. He killed himself eight years later. The prejudices he faced were cited at the inquest into his death. The most high-profile footballer to come out since then is Anton Hysen a player in the Swedish lower leagues.
In the interview Jarvis agreed that not coming out could hamper performance in a sport that has traditionally considered homosexuality as a forbidden frontier. He said: "You've always got something you're worried about at the back of your mind. If you can let that go and then just concentrate on your one goal, which is whichever sport you're doing to the best of your ability, I think that would help. Definitely."
It is part of a wider attempt to tackle prejudice to homosexuality in football. Last month the Spanish midfielder Suso, who plays for Liverpool, was fined £10,000 for calling his team-mate José Enrique "gay" on Twitter and warned about his future conduct by the Football Association.
Previously, former Sheffield Wednesday captain Darren Purse said he would have to think hard before advising a young player to come out; Bayern Munich's German striker Mario Gomez made headlines when he did the opposite, urging gay players to break this last "taboo".
Big "scandal" here as 2 prominent players (Kokorin and Mamev) were pictured in Miami in various poses that meeja have jumped on to say are "gay". Oddly, the most vociferous of the meeja have been scandal sheets and gay outlets who are slamming "homophobic russians" before any comment has even been issued from the players, fans or clubs. If anyone has seen them, the two lads look like they're acting the maggot and if they were photos from Temple Bar or a rugby club tour, you'd think nothing of it. While meeja sources are taking the chance to kick out at "russians", I wonder how it would go over in the UK, Ireland, USA etc.
'Former Leeds winger Rogers comes out but announces his retirement aged just 25': http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...s-aged-25.html
Quote:
Former Leeds United winger Robbie Rogers has written a blog in which he comes out as openly gay and retires from the game.
The 25-year-old, who was released by Leeds in the summer and joined Stevenage on loan, becomes the first professional footballer in Britain to come out since Justin Fashanu in 1990.
He also played for America 18 times, including all three of their games at the Beijing Olympics in 2008.
Apparently the head of the PFA spoke with 8 gay players but they didn't want to come out. Personally speaking, it's not right that the head of the PFA would say such a thing, it leads to speculation and just does a Stephen McGuinness. While the vast majority of people will just not give a damn, a few eejits and the pack mentality would make it a horrible place for a gay footballer - especially on the net.
I admire Rogers for coming out. However, it's a sign of football's deep problems in this area that he could only do so as he retires. Aged 25. It was not a good news story. In fact, quite the contrary.
How sad is it that the GAA appears to actually be ahead of football on this issue.
It's not that difficult for any sport to appear to be more progressive than the neanderthal portion who pollute soccer :p
However, only one player at GAA county level, Dónal Óg Cusack, has 'come out', he also just happened to be an articulate man and was already a well respected player.
Cork people knew about him anyway and afaia he didn't get any grief over it at Cork club games. There was one mass semi-brawl before a county game, some Clare players decided on a tactical wind up and called him a 'faggot'. The Cork players didn't let that pass. Another time in Semple Stadium, some idiot with megaphone behind the goals, gave him stick all through the game and no one was 'man enough' to shut him up.
There's a gay gaa club called the Dublin Devils.
I agree that Rogers feeling comfortable to "come out" only after an early retirement is a poor reflection of the homophobia that blights football rather than something to celebrate, but what exactly has the GAA done to combat homophobia?Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
It's not that the GAA have done anything positive as an organisation, but that there have been developments within GAA culture that have outstripped anything in football. As geysir points out, there is a gay GAA club. I'm not aware of a football equivalent in Ireland.
And let's not underestimate Donal Óg coming out. Established player he may have been, but he felt safe enough to come out whilst still playing at the highest level. I thought he would get slaughtered, but I think I was projecting what would have happened if it had been done in the sporting culture I knew better - football. Only one player he may be, but its one more than in football.
Geysir was unusually misinformed. The Dublin Devils aren't a GAA club. They're a football club.
I was just checking if you were on the ball. :D
(somehow I had the mistaken impression that gay team were a gaa gay team)
I would also endorse Gormacha's comment, that despite some homophobia experienced by Cusack outside of Cork county, before he publicly came out, the positive reaction afterwards was encouraging and he was in the worst position on the field (goalkeeper) to receive abuse.
I doubt if the GAA are doing anything more than the other major sports to counteract homophobia, but in a GAA environment, a profile player did 'come out' and it was overwhelmingly positive. I don't know what value or what precedent it sets for other players in a similar predicament. Cusack's predicament was that he was being singled out by a few homophobes, in some games outside Cork.
I don't see why players should have to 'come out', I'd prefer if everybody else just didn't give a damn.
Ah, mea culpa re the Devils. It undermines my argument significantly, goddamit. I hate when the facts get in the way of my thesis. :)
I would still contend that had a similarly high profile player come out in football, they would have a much harder time of it than Donal Óg did. Not long ago on this forum I got shouted down for pointing out that it was unacceptable that a female physio had some really nasty sexual comments made at her. I was told her feminity was her defining characteristic and that was why she got those comments*, in the same way someone who was overweight would get called a fat b'stard. I suspect the same argument would be made about someone gay.
I agree with you geysir about the need to come out at all. The fact that "coming out" is a central part of our cultural lexicon shows how dysfunctional many still hold homosexuality to be.
*And how revealing this was about how some men orient themselves to women.
Was that a popular sentiment on this forum when that discussion arose?Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
The whole concept of "coming out", along with the pressure/expectation/fanfare that surrounds or would surround such an "event" in football, is a bit ridiculous alright and it's a shame that such significance need be attached to it, primarily as a result of football being the last bastion of homophobia; as if some admission (of deviation from what is perceived to be "right" or "normal") needs to be made after a life of deception or as if it is necessary to classify one's sexuality in line with the existing popular social definitions anyway. I always found Gore Vidal's thoughts on the latter matter both enlightening and constructive.Quote:
I agree with you geysir about the need to come out at all. The fact that "coming out" is a central part of our cultural lexicon shows how dysfunctional many still hold homosexuality to be.
Of those that replied to the thread, only one other person argued similarly to me - that the abuse was unacceptable. One poster adopted a neutral stance, and all others more or less took the opinion that if she was involved in football then she was fair game, and her defining quality is what would define the type of abuse she would get.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
The conversation was started by someone making an observation about a female referee. This got conflated with the discussion about the female physio. Several argued that she was getting abuse because of "her [refereeing] decisions", but this, as I pointed out, wasn't the case with the physio who was getting abuse about being a woman. In amongst thousands of men.
Also, I agree fully with your parting comments. I haven't read Vidal on this, but I agree with the argument.
It's only a "defining" quality, amongst a multitude of other shared qualities, insofar as someone with a prejudice seeks to see and impose it as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
Some passages/statements by Vidal on the subject:Quote:
Also, I agree fully with your parting comments. I haven't read Vidal on this, but I agree with the argument.
"There is no such thing as a homosexual or a heterosexual person. There are only homo -- or heterosexual acts. Most people are a mixture of impulses if not practices."
"Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than there is such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing sexual acts, not people. The sexual acts are entirely normal; if they were not, no one would perform them."
"We are all bisexual to begin with. That is a fact of our condition. And we are all responsive to sexual stimuli from our own as well as from the opposite sex. Certain societies at certain times, usually in the interest of maintaining the baby supply, have discouraged homosexuality. Other societies, particularly militaristic ones, have exalted it. But regardless of tribal taboos, homosexuality is a constant fact of the human condition and it is not a sickness, not a sin, not a crime ... despite the best efforts of our puritan tribe to make it all three. Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. Notice I use the word 'natural,' not normal."
"The reason no one has yet been able to come up with a good word to describe the homosexualist (sometimes known as gay, fag, queer, etc.) is because he does not exist. The human race is divided into male and female. Many human beings enjoy sexual relations with their own sex, many don't; many respond to both. This plurality is the fact of our nature and not worth fretting about."
I'm glad I support a football club (Celtic) where I'm pretty certain any homophobic comments amongst the crowd, 'loose banter' or otherwise would result in a swift challenge from those in the vicinity. Maybe not the aulder generation but young lads certainly.
On Donal Og Cusack, I don't think his 'contribution' (totally for want of a better phrase but you know what I mean) should be underplayed. I'm not saying his coming out has resulted in scores of young lads across rural Ireland being comfortable with their sexuality in a sporting environment but i'm fairly sure it was heavily referenced when that Welsh rugby fella came out as well? And it does break down that first huge barrier within the GAA - one of the most well known players of the last 10 years and all - not a Swedish 4th Div player which is pathetically all that soccer can offer. Which in a round about way leads me back to my original point. Homophobic language at Celtic games is non-existent. I presume the same could not be said of many clubs across Britain and Ireland?
I don't know how you could say it's non-existent. I've never heard it at Tolka. But I would never say it was non-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
I'm afraid the non-existence of identifiable openly gay players on the field towards whom homophobic abuse could be directed might have something to do with this alleged non-existence of homophobic language in the stands. Would it really remain so generally "non-existent" if an active player were to "come out" and thus present himself as a recognisable target? The taboo or stigma associated with homosexuality in football, and it cannot be denied, is the very reason gay footballers, and they do exist, are so afraid of being open about their sexuality.
I've witnessed what I would classify as homophobic abuse being directed from the stands at Killian Brennan, for example, due to the way he styled his hair or something daft like that. Actually, it didn't merely come from the stands; it came from his own "supporters"...
:eek:
Alright dude. As you can see am an infrequent poster here and forget that any misplaced or slightly over-zealous syllable on foot is seized upon!!
General point is the same - Shels wee crowd or not - I imagine it is still fairly common to hear casual homophobic language in football crowds. Probably rampant at certain clubs in England but maybe I am being prejudiced there. Maybe you don't hear it too often around the grounds, but what is the likelihood of someone challenging it if aired? Culture of silence? But football has been making inroads I feel these last couple of years. Hopefully see some positive change soon. But hopefully nothing like the racism/handshake furore of last season in England which was just such a hachet job IMO.
Initial post replying to Bonnie, btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
And as I suggested above, if there happened to be an 'out' SPL player playing at CP and he was on the receiving end of homophobic abuse from Celtic supporters I've no doubt he'd be hauled out of his seat by one of his own. Speculation, of course, I accept that.