Jack charlton, roy keane, euro 2012 (passage of time)

Does anyone need any extra convincing (after that performance against Spain) that possession is 99% of the game in football. Sure, goals win games but the Ireland v Spain game just illustrated how many chances can be created by the best possession team in the world verus that which gives away the ball the most.

Our first major tournament was 24 years ago. We did a lot under Jack because he recognised the fact that we couldn't maintain possession. He came up with a game plan and it worked wonders. And just to think some people still ridicule Jack to this day. In my mind he was a genius.

And speaking of geniuses, Roy Keane was also a genius.

He managed to pull together a bunch of players (better than that assembled tonight) and made them actually pass the ball and place a premium on not giving it away. We used to go to places like Holland and Portugal and have a real go at them.

And to think Roy was ridiculed and still is to this day.

So where to from here?

Major surgery is needed to our brains really. We have got to stop giving the ball away. It's our friend, when you keep it and moved it from player to player good things happen (as we all saw today).

Until the FAI hires some really good foreign coaches who can teach this aspect of the game to our youngsters, we are doomed.

Perhaps given the headline of this thread, Giovanni Trapattoni pales into insignificance as one who wasn't the best Irish manager of all time. Certainly I would take issue with him over his choice of midfielders. But that's small potatoes. The larger picture shows that we have to make radical changes to our game so as never to be embarassed like that again.

Traps game is basically parking the bus, unfortunately this time someone forgot to put the handbrake on.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

And speaking of geniuses, Roy Keane was also a genius.

He managed to pull together a bunch of players (better than that assembled tonight) and made them actually pass the ball and place a premium on not giving it away. We used to go to places like Holland and Portugal and have a real go at them.

And to think Roy was ridiculed and still is to this day.

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Have I been asleep for years? Did I miss when Keane was manager of our team?

As for possession, I may be wrong but I think Chelsea beat Barcelona and Bayern with far less possession as did England against Spain recently. You start by defending properly which we did not. Both our early goals were conceded by giving away the ball in our own half. By trying to keep possession in our half.

You can have all the foreign coaches in the world in Ireland, but our players play in the English game.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Have I been asleep for years? Did I miss when Keane was manager of our team?

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Don't know if you've been sleeping for years, but you're asleep now. Who ever said Keane was the manager? Keane was a genius as a player and captain in that he pulled a bunch of team mates together and got them to play proper football.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

As for possession, I may be wrong but I think Chelsea beat Barcelona and Bayern with far less possession as did England against Spain recently. You start by defending properly which we did not. Both our early goals were conceded by giving away the ball in our own half. By trying to keep possession in our half.

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Agreed, Chelsea were the luckiest team to win the Champions League. But at least when they got the ball they knew what to do with it. It's that old 'possession' thing, you know. You do need to possess the ball and pass it constructively for anything good to happen. You saw the results of the opposite last night.

And YES we do need foreign coaches in Ireland. I'm talking about the 5 and 6 year old kids who are learning to play the game. They need technical coaching. How much technical coaching do you think the likes of Keith Andrews, Richard Dunne and Stephen Ward had when they were kids?

Our underage teams are actually quite good at passing the ball and we produce good, young footballers who can play possession football.

The problem is, unless they are good enough to end up at Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, they end up going to some ****e team in the Championship or lower reaches of the Premiership, who teach them to "get it up and at them."

I hope Martinez stays at Wigan because he is really turning McCarthy into a proper player. Imagine if Neil Warnock took over there.

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Originally Posted by brine3

The problem is, unless they are good enough to end up at Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, they end up going to some ****e team in the Championship or lower reaches of the Premiership, who teach them to "get it up and at them."

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You're right brine, that is the problem in a nutshell. I think someone in some sort of coaching authority in Ireland, should begin to build relationships with foreign clubs (not English) in order for our top young lads to go there. We have a Dutch coach (Koverman) overseeing the whole thing? Could he not ask the likes of Ajax or PSV to take some of our youngsters and let them have a go there, rather than sending them to the English football whirlwind and see them, as you say, end up in the Championship.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Don't know if you've been sleeping for years, but you're asleep now. Who ever said Keane was the manager? Keane was a genius as a player and captain in that he pulled a bunch of team mates together and got them to play proper football.

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What makes you think he got them to play "proper football"? I thought it was the manager's job to decide the style of football we play. As I said, when did Keane become manager? Did he give the talks in the changing room? Select the team? Decide the tactics? When did HE pull this group of players together?

Great player ok. Genius - I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

What makes you think he got them to play "proper football"? I thought it was the manager's job to decide the style of football we play. As I said, when did Keane become manager? Did he give the talks in the changing room? Select the team? Decide the tactics? When did HE pull this group of players together?

Great player ok. Genius - I don't think so.

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Did you not notice how the team's playing style changed dramatically when he walked out and McCarthy imposed his long ball tactics??? No? Neither do I.

Original post is beneath contempt.

Also, I am sorry you were embarrassed. You must follow a team that wins all the time otherwise you'd be aware that teams frequently get stuffed (even Man U in the first derby game of the season). I have seen Ireland get played off the pitch including a 3-0 drubbing in Portugal in the rain, 1-3 at home to Spain in which the genius Keane played I think and he also played in Orlando in '94 when Holland also never gave us a kick.

I am delighted we got to this Final, very disappointed and saddened by the results (not aided by the 2 early goals) but embarrassed, no. Roll the sleeves up and get on with it and hopefully not concede early against the Italians and put in a much better performance, if capable of it.

Looking forward to that game and the new campaign already. I expect there will be a full review of what went wrong (there are huge bonuses for the FAI from UEFA for every point gained so they are hurting as well) but let's not forget the standard of the group we were in with a team made up of players from teams in the lower echelons of the Premiership and lower (and some with no clubs at all). The rugby team got a similar drubbing from the world champions.

Glad you mentioned the rugby team, because they demand a very high standard of themselves. Sure they have their lows as well as highs, but as a fan you can see a pretty high standard of play from our lads with the oval ball, most of the time. Same goes for our boxers, we should see them reap rewards in the Olympics.

What I'm saying is that we reached our first tournament 24 years ago. We didn't play football then, we couldn't. It's a quater of century later and we still can't play the game properly. Is that acceptable for any team or any association? Not by my standards and not by yours if you're honest.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

What makes you think he got them to play "proper football"? I thought it was the manager's job to decide the style of football we play. As I said, when did Keane become manager? Did he give the talks in the changing room? Select the team? Decide the tactics? When did HE pull this group of players together? Great player ok. Genius - I don't think so.

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He was a great player, actually a genius of a player. I know he's a headcase, agreed, but a genius also.

And he did pull this group of players together because he was the dominant force in the team, not the manager. In essence he did decide the tactics, now that you mention it. He was light years ahead of McCarthy in terms of know how. I like Mick, love him in fact, but let's call it like it is.

The manager's talks in the changing room were diluted by the demands of their captain on the field. That's likely where the conflict came in - don't know that for a fact but it would seem that way.

When did Keane become the manager? Is that question still relevant?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

We used to go to places like Holland and Portugal and have a real go at them.

And to think Roy was ridiculed and still is to this day.

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We had one shot on target in Portugal and it went in. We then hung on for the rest of the game and were on the back foot even before the goal. I don't know how we drew that game. The other time we lost 3-0 and it could have been more.

Roy Keane's football ability is not riduculed here and never has been. Some of the things he has said and done have been, and rightly so.

Whatever reasonable points might be trying to come out of your post, you just can't be taken remotely seriously because of the rest of the stuff you throw in.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Whatever reasonable points might be trying to come out of your post, you just can't be taken remotely seriously because of the rest of the stuff you throw in.

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Sorry mate, but I feel exactly the same about you.


You seem to have strong opinions that are not for changing, but surely you'll agree that radical change is needed to our football philosphy.

If you don't, and you're happy with that type of performance last night, then you should be ecstatic in the years to come. Because it seems nothing is going to change if we continue to miss the forest for the trees.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

You're right brine, that is the problem in a nutshell. I think someone in some sort of coaching authority in Ireland, should begin to build relationships with foreign clubs (not English) in order for our top young lads to go there. We have a Dutch coach (Koverman) overseeing the whole thing? Could he not ask the likes of Ajax or PSV to take some of our youngsters and let them have a go there, rather than sending them to the English football whirlwind and see them, as you say, end up in the Championship.

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Or we should be putting place the structures and coaches in place here, through our own national league, rather than sending them anywhere overseas. The best will go for the money, be that England or elsewhere. However, we have to take full responsibility for developing our own players. And that includes fans supporting their own clubs rather than foreign ones too.

And btw, there's actually quite a lot of similarities between our International Football and Rugby teams - both have a manager insisting on outdated tactics who refuses to pick our best players!

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Glad you mentioned the rugby team, because they demand a very high standard of themselves. Sure they have their lows as well as highs, but as a fan you can see a pretty high standard of play from our lads with the oval ball, most of the time. Same goes for our boxers, we should see them reap rewards in the Olympics.

What I'm saying is that we reached our first tournament 24 years ago. We didn't play football then, we couldn't. It's a quater of century later and we still can't play the game properly. Is that acceptable for any team or any association? Not by my standards and not by yours if you're honest.

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We beat England, we drew with the Soviet Union and were only beaten by a poxy goal from the eventual champions eight minutes from time. We surpassed every expectation of us in that tournament.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

And to think Roy was ridiculed and still is to this day.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I know he's a headcase

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Hang on, isn't that ridicule?

Anyway, to take on your point seriously, I think it's easy to think we're not developing technically adept players but despite how obviously deficient we have been I would hesitate to make that assumption, or at least to blame everything on that. I think other factors played a part - world class opposition, 3 key senior players not 100% sharp, poor team selection and a poor tactical approach that has been found out at a level above a qualification group.

The system is producing players like Coleman, Ireland, Hoolahan, Meyler and others I can't think of off the top of my head, all players who have decent technique. We developed Duff, Keane, Given, Dunne, Reid - all good technically - so ought to be able to do it again.

I do think it'd be feasible to be at least as technically proficient as Denmark who played great from 2 down to Portugal and whose players are (I suspect) playing at a lower level than ours do.

I'd genuinely like to know what the FAI technical development policy is and how it is being assessed (versus targets etc.).

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

The system is producing players like Coleman, Ireland, Hoolahan, Meyler and others I can't think of off the top of my head, all players who have decent technique. We developed Duff, Keane, Given, Dunne, Reid - all good technically - so ought to be able to do it again.

I'd genuinely like to know what the FAI technical development policy is and how it is being assessed (versus targets etc.).

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Those players are coming through despite the system, rather than because of it, imo. I guess we'll never know how many decent players never got the chance at underage level due to their (lack of) size, or how many that were sent over to England at 15 and sent home again disillusioned with football at 17 might have made it by the age of 20 or 21 if they'd stayed at home and kept at it and kept developing.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd genuinely like to know what the FAI technical development policy is and how it is being assessed (versus targets etc.).

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It'll always be a flawed document anyway, as the FAI don't have the power over their member leagues to implement a proper technical plan. How long would it take for the school boy leagues to disaffiliate if the FAI said there should be no leagues or cups for under 15's for example?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Sorry mate, but I feel exactly the same about you.


You seem to have strong opinions that are not for changing, but surely you'll agree that radical change is needed to our football philosphy.

If you don't, and you're happy with that type of performance last night, then you should be ecstatic in the years to come. Because it seems nothing is going to change if we continue to miss the forest for the trees.

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I don't throw in nonsense on a regular basis. We're all entitled to become impassioned and emotional but you constantly throw in stuff that's open to immediate rebuttal just because of how yoiu say it, whereas I, in all modesty, don't.

I am always open to debate as long as it's sensible and done rationally. I do have firm opinions but I am also flexible.

Of course I'm not happy with that kind of performance. I haven't said I am and your last point was juvenile.

I don't buy into the knee jerk reaction that radical change is required simply because I don't know what our approach really is. There is no transparency around the FAI technical development plan but every now and then a talented young player comes through the system.

A much bigger problem, in my suspicion, is the total economic chasm between our game and the English system and all the negative consequences this has for our game. Also, whilst I had an open mind on Trap and his methods I'm now more convinced that his methods, selections and philosophy are too rigid and are outdated.

What I do think is required is a proper caluculated assessment of where we are right now. If that throws up the conclusion that a change of direction is needed then great. You've got to bear in mind that drastic change is likely to cost money that we don't have.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I am delighted we got to this Final, very disappointed and saddened by the results (not aided by the 2 early goals) but embarrassed, no. Roll the sleeves up and get on with it and hopefully not concede early against the Italians and put in a much better performance, if capable of it.

Looking forward to that game and the new campaign already. I expect there will be a full review of what went wrong (there are huge bonuses for the FAI from UEFA for every point gained so they are hurting as well) but let's not forget the standard of the group we were in with a team made up of players from teams in the lower echelons of the Premiership and lower (and some with no clubs at all). The rugby team got a similar drubbing from the world champions.

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Heard a correspondent on the Off The Ball Show last night stating you get €1m for a Group win. Not that I expect us to get a win against Italy but a €1m quid in the FAI coffers would surely help. Whether it be Grassroots or Traps/Delaneys Salaries to benefit Im not sure.........