Kids Soccer

My neighbours young lad plays in the Limerick Schoolboy League.
Last season (2003/4) he played U8 7-a-side fun football from March 2004 onwards, presumably because the pitches would be in good condition at that time of year. 7 a-side fun football was also played at U7 & U9. Recently the local paper published an article that he is to play 9-a-side this season (2004/5) starting at the end of August 2004. I assume that it is still fun football as I personally feel that an 8 year old boy shouldn't be playing in a competitive league. The U10s will be playing 11 a side. The League apparently stopped the U10s playing 7-a-side 2 years ago.
I did a little investigating on the internet and from what I have seen, have come to the conclusion that the game and the kids are better served playing fun football in small sided games. Kids have more time on the ball and have more touches of the ball in small sided games and no pressure is put on kids at an early age if the game is played for fun.
His mum is a bit concerned as he wants to gave up hurling because the coaches/mentors are very concerned about winning matches and she is worried that the same situation could develop here.
Has anyone any thoughts. Does the FAI determine the rules ? The FAI website says is that fun should be the principle aim up to U12.

welcome on board templehall,
i have 2 lads playing kids football in blessington.
have to say that despite what anybody says vis a vis no pressure and play for fun,once the whistle blows for the start of the match ,its dog eat dog out there........even at under 8
in dublin & wicklow 11 a side doesnt start til under 11 until then its restricted to 7 a side :)

I think there is a new venture in Dublin where u10 play an 9-a-side game to help bridge the gap between 7-a-side to 11-a-side.

Some clubs in Dublin have ads in the papers for trials for U7s and U8s.

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

I think there is a new venture in Dublin where u10 play an 9-a-side game to help bridge the gap between 7-a-side to 11-a-side.

Some clubs in Dublin have ads in the papers for trials for U7s and U8s.

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here in the local league we play 7 a side up to age 12.
we started an under 8 league 2 years ago with the best of intentions of keeping it fun but the competitive element always kicks in.
i know in holland and germany etc there is no reward(medals, points gained)in their leagues until age 12/13. just fixtures only.
this idea was mooted with the FAI but rejected as the competitive spirit in the irish psyche should be nurtured(in their opinion).
its really down to the local leagues who need to provide for both the competitive element and also make it fun.

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

I think there is a new venture in Dublin where u10 play an 9-a-side game to help bridge the gap between 7-a-side to 11-a-side.

Some clubs in Dublin have ads in the papers for trials for U7s and U8s.

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didnt know that,
i think its a great idea,
my older son struggled big time to get the grips on the diff games (7 & 11 a side).i can honestly say it took him neary the whole year to get used to it.
in the 7 a side they get loads of the ball and with the 11 a side you get 10 min breaks where you dont touch the ball :eek:

I agree - 99.9% of kids will always will be competitive on the field. That's their nature.
The concern here is the over-competitive parents who are on the side lines seeking (even if subconciously) reflected glory and the coaches/mentors putting too much pressure on young lads to win. Kids can get too nervous to play and become frightened to make mistakes. Their confidence can be dented easily at such an early age. You have to learn to walk before you run. Learn the game in a non pressure environment. The more you kick/touch the ball the easier it becomes. The small game allows for this and surely should be played at a young age?
Your lads in Blessington are playing 7s up to 10, in Limerick it is changing every year. Plans/programs can be put in place to develop the kids if clubs/coaches/mentors and even parents knew what format of game was going to be played. Check out the pathway given to the 1993 boys in Limerick -

2004/5 - U7 & U8 play 7s
2004/5 - U9 & U10 play 9s (competitively ?)
2004/5 - all other ages play 11s on full size pitch - includes 1993@U11

2003/4 - U7, U8 & U9 play 7s
2003/4 - U10 (1993) & U11 play competitive 11s modified pitch & small goals
2003/4 - all other ages play 11s on full size pitch

2002/3 - U7, U8 & U9 (1993) play 7s
2002/3 - U10 & U11 play competitive 11s modified pitch & small goals
2002/3 - all other ages play 11s on full size pitch

2001/2 - U8, U9(1993) & U10 play 7s (U9s comprised both 92 & 93 boys)
2001/2 - all other ages play 11s on full size pitch

2000/1 - U8 (1992), U9 (1991) & U10 play 7s
2000/1 - all other ages play 11s on full size pitch

Surely there is a nationally recognised format for playing football at all age groups ? Is this a Kop out from the FAI or is Limerick unique? progressive? going backwards?

getting the parents under control is strictly the job of the manager and assistant manager to sort out before the season starts.
i have been involved with kids football for about 6 years now going into my 7 th with 5 at management (im talking small kids playing football here-im no alex f or brian kerr)
but the one thing i always do is before thbe season starts i tell the parents that the only sound i want to hear from the sideline is......encouragement,even if your kid misses a sitter (as you know they do every few mins),do not no matter what, shout negative stuff from the sidelines.

i have to say ive had a great response to it,because the parents are aware that you are listening to them when the match is on and they tend to watch what they are saying.

you have to make a big deal out of it when you are talking to the parents about it.

It's easy to say that it is the responsibility of the manager/assistant manager to control parents on the sidelines. What about the managers/coaches/club officials themselves ? I fully agree that encouragement should be the only thing heard from the sidelines at all levels of "underage soccer".

My original point however was that competition - the winning of cups/leagues/medals etc should not be given priority over the development of young footballers. Also that the game should be modified (rules and size of field of play) to suit the player. How many 9 year olds can understand how to play offside ? How many touches of the ball will a 9 year old get playing in an 11 a side game played on a full size pitch ?

If the game is to be played competitively (winning cups/medals etc) by under 9s (8 year olds), how many future stars will be lost to the game simply because they were "not up to it" at 8 years old? Who is ultimately responsible for the development of football in this country ? Is it the "amatuer" managers who take a kids team because no one else will ? Is it the local leagues who are largely run by "retired amatuer managers"? Or is it full time professionals paid by the FAI?
The GAA don't officially go competitive until U12. Rugby is at U14.

The views of a pundit from cross channel -
"We could drastically improve the standards of English football immediately if we made small children play on small pitches with small goals, so that they can be in the vicinity of each other and learn to pass the ball to each other instead of having to hoof it. They should ban playing on big pitches until children get to 13 or 14."
Gary Lineker

i suppose the ultimate authority would have to be the fai.
but they in turn delegate to the likes of ddsl/brenfer league/sdfl (in dublin)
to administer schoolboy soccer in the greater dublin area.

the above statement sounds all very well and organised.
the reality:
from under 7 (where its played) to right up to youth football is largely managed and trained by parents of some of the kids involved in the teams
who dont have to have any football qualifications at all.

even the likes of well known dublin clubs like home farm use this system up to under 11 and then the managers must go for courses to get badges etc.
(i was assistant manager there for 3 years).

less well known clubs who dont have any "name" as such are still totally dependant on parents to get involved in all the teams or you have no team...simple as that.

the point i was trying to make to you in my earlier post is that ultimately each individual team at a club is like a little community ,as in,you and the parents of your players get to know each other during trials ,pre season,friendlies ,etc and thats when you impress on them the importance of not getting on their kids backs during the games.

the problem is so big in this area that the only hope you have is trying to turn the tide on YOUR TEAM and try to get other parents/managers on board.

no matter what you do ,im afraid you are always going to have the type of parents on the sideline that have no business being there.

as regards having under 9s/10s on a full size pitch,well thats for the birds.
at least the older kids 11s/12s have some concept of not touching the ball as frequently as they used to,at under 9 thats too early

I fully appreciate what you are saying.

If it were not for "amatuer managers" the fotball conveyor belt would stop.

Where do all the retired eL players go to? What percentage of ex-eL players have an input to the development of young players?

Perhaps the FAIs latest development plan will allow us all to sing from the same hymn sheet. But will they stand up to the "retired amatuer managers" running the schoolboy leagues? The FAI have always stated U7s up to U10 but Limerick play competitive 11 a side at this age group.

agree with most of what is being said here

i manage a schoolboy team - Aisling Annacotty u12s in 2004/5 - and tend to disagree with a lot of stuff that comes out of LDSL with regard to player development.

this years plan - i suppose it will have to be passed at an EGM before it can go ahead - looks a bit better than over the previous couple of seasons. ideally i would prefer the U11s to play on the modified field as it was last year. maybe even play 9 a side at this age group. the u10 9 a side game must be welcomed. i wouldn't play it for medals though. at U9, i would still like to see 7 a side. have a winter break as well. for u7 & u8 it must be fun 7s. the blitz format is ideal but there weren't enough enough of them last season.

parents ranting and raving on the line - completely out of order. luck has it that it doesn't happen with my team. seen it a few times, including managers swearing at players - even at u8 age.

FAI - RDOs need to promote and police official SFAI & FAI policies. these are the paid professionals located around the country whose job is to develop grass roots soccer.

Other sports - in my area soccer is 3rd behind rugby & GAA. in limerick the growth areas in very underage soccer (u8-u12) are in the suburbs - Castletroy, Raheen, Corbally, Caherdavin. streaming kids into "A" & "B" teams at U9 & U10 is crazy. why is there such a high drop out rate of kids playing soccer in these areas? - main one is competive teams at too young ages. these kids play rugby too but aren't told that they're not good enough to play for the rugby team until they've gone to 2nd level school when they are more ready to accept that they aren't good enough for the "a" team. in limerick city centre, the traditional stronghold of soccer, the clubs often don't have enough players for 1 team so streaming at any age is not an issue.

as regards kids being told they are not good enough to play for a team.

this is not as straight forward as you might think.
you dont want to see any child being denied football but there is a natural process where most clubs who have several teams in at say, under 10,will want an A team,and after that they dont really mind who plays for what after that.

anybody who doent have a child playing at the moment will probably be horrified at the thought of A teams at such a young age but thats the way it is out there.

even for the weakest of kids (at football) some place must be found on one of the lesser teams in the club.i have 10 players this year and 3 of those are really weak at the game but i am prepared to work with these kids and try and improve them.

so while its indefencible to turn away a child by saying your not good enough you have to keep an eye out for the other lads too to make sure everyone is playing at a level they can survive at.

its a juggling act really because you are doing a child no favours by putting him in above his head as you can destroy a childs confidence by doing this.
take it from me ive seen it happen.

so i personally dont see the harm in grading kids (to avoid kids getting hammered) i want to see a place on a team for every child who wants to play

i had nearly 50 boys, some of whom had been with the club since 7 years of age, at U10 level. the club withdrew the teams from the local league as the league decided to go full 11 a side competitive at U10 and ignored an SFAI decision to revert back to 7 aside - who is really in charge of schoolboy soccer?

we organised our own 7 a side blitzes every Saturday to keep the boys playing - they got a lot more football than any other age group within the club. we then trialed the boys for U11 to select an "A" team at U11 and tried to assure all of the boys that trials will take place every year - just because you are not selected for an "A" team at U11 doesn't mean that you'll never be an "A" player.

some boys carry "puppy fat" and their speed/agility excludes them from "A" soccer, not their technique - great for playing prop in underage rugby. some boys have only taken up the game at 10 and need time to develop. in limerick city a good number of boys don't join clubs until 11 & 12 years old, some don't until 2nd level school. most city clubs only have 1 team per age group so joining in doesn't pose a problem. Joining a "B" team and being creamed isn't the best intro to club football.

we always knew we could put out a good 11 a side, able to compete with anyone in the city, but after that the B & C team would be very weak. There are only 2 divisions in Limerick at U11.

after removing the stronger players, the parents involved in running the teams couldn't see these B & C teams competing and so we experienced a mass exodus of adult mentors.

the result was that with 2 weeks to go before the season began we had an "A" team in place and over 30 boys with only 1 mentor. eventually a few parents were persuaded to step forward to establish a "B" team - the objective was simply to keep the boys playing but the large playing panel would require a great deal of rotation.

this team competed in the lower division of the league mainly against clubs who only had 1 team. they were creamed nearly every week. As the season went on, the number of players available for selection diminished. Approx. half have now decided that they will not play be playing soccer next season.

perhaps it was poor organisation that was the cause, perhaps it was deciding not to put in 11 a side teams at U10 (this would probably have given us the same problem only it would be 1 season earlier), or perhaps if the competitiveness (cups/gongs etc) was removed until an older age, our club (and soccer) might not have lost around 15 boys. Maybe we should have split the teams and made the "A" team weaker and strengthened the "B" team and created a "C" team if mentors could have been found ?

i personally firmly believe that the entire setup of schoolboy soccer needs to be revamped. move the kennedy cup out a year or 2, bring the U18s into the schoolboy setup (most are still at school after all). no competitive club soccer before second level education - u13. play 7 a side up to u10. do a 2 year transition - 9 a side at u11 and 11 a side at U12 both with modified pitch and goals. at U11 & 12 organise several competitions (2/3 day blitzes) over weekends. go fully competitive at U13. every league affiliated to a local FAI acadamy of excellence.

Following recent constructive (and productive! :) ) discussion on the Best Kids Club in Ireland thread, Lets now use this forum (With the permission of the Directors!! :eek: ) to provide ideas, suggestions, contacts and solutions to problems for coaches, mentors, supporters, and parents involved with kids soccer!!

Spread the word!! :cool:
Its for the kids you know!! :rolleyes:

Heres a starter for ten:

How do you "split", for the want of a better word, the kids who can compete from those who at the current stage of thier development, simply cannot. There is no point in getting kids hammered by visiting teams. But as all kids are growing at different speeds, we need to keep all interested for as long as possible. For the good of the kids and for the good of the game. :ball:

You need to have at least two teams, A and B and register them in different divisions of the same age group.

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Originally Posted by MervilleUnited

Heres a starter for ten:

How do you "split", for the want of a better word, the kids who can compete from those who at the current stage of thier development, simply cannot. There is no point in getting kids hammered by visiting teams. But as all kids are growing at different speeds, we need to keep all interested for as long as possible. For the good of the kids and for the good of the game. :ball:

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Just wondering have I been barred or anything (I can't see why) I spent a good 3/4 of an hour adding to this topic and it didn't post.

In any case here we go. To start with an Intro. I'm involved with Drumbar Utd, a Donegal League outfit located outside Donegal Town. I'm involved with U-10's and U-8's. Quite simply I'm very definite the game at this level is very different for both age categorie's. Unfortunately U-10's is about competition and the wains demand it. Our club is affiliated to the South Donegal Schoolboy's league and 'blitz' competitions are organised twice in the season. January and April. Iat this point take your point Merville, since this is 7 a-side this present's problem's. All my hard work of encouraging and supporting kids at every session and whenever I see them is undone because I can only pick 7. Its often the only time parents see the kids and I have to spend an awful lot of time trying to rebuild confidences of wains I haven't selected. The problem is wains have different abilities and different needs and demands, wains have different confidence levels. I dont believe in different cateories of 'A' and 'B' and I have no wish to categorise kids as such. Kids turn up on Monday, Wednesday and on the field on Saturday morning. They turn up because they love the game, they want to be there and they deserve encouragement, support and opportunities for doing so. I will always look out for the kids who are there because they want to be and not based on their ability.

At U-8's level there should be absolutely no competitive element. I would never allow it.I very often have to move some of my 8 year olds to my U-10 side because they are good enough.

I hear it from parents who appreciate how their wains are looked after, they appreciate their kids been included. Its a huge effort and takes so much time. Its worth it. I often hear from parents that there is such a differnce between football and GAA, its very often make or break for kids with GAA with such a competitive element to the game. I think we need to be very defined in how we organise underage levels. I do as I do because I believe its the right thing to do, I resist any intrusion on that. I noticed our own Schoolboy's league made it very clear to me at the last 'blitz' competition that I was to conform with the rules of the competition when I wanted to organise a few extra games to give every child who turned up and opportunity.

Just a few idea's.

Brendan Grufferty, PRO
Drumbar Utd,
Donegal Town

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Originally Posted by Harpsbear

The problem is wains have different abilities and different needs and demands, wains have different confidence levels. I dont believe in different cateories of 'A' and 'B' and I have no wish to categorise kids as such. Kids turn up on Monday, Wednesday and on the field on Saturday morning. They turn up because they love the game, they want to be there and they deserve encouragement, support and opportunities for doing so. I will always look out for the kids who are there because they want to be and not based on their ability.

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You need to seperate on ability because if you lump all kids together then when you play a game and have five kids with a lot of ability and five with limited ability on the same side week in week out then what happens is the weaker kids never get the ball and when they do they will make a balls of it because they are under so much pressure form the better kids not from the coaches and parents. The stronger kids start to single out bad players and no matter how much you try to stop this it will happen. When you bring a weaker kid on as a sub for example you will see the stronger kids looking and saying why are they playing.

If you keep kids of similar ability together then they all get a chance too show what they can do instead of trying and never getting a look in.

I coached a team a couple of years back at under 7 and had ten kids, five strong and five weak. for that year the weaker kids spent all their time looking on at the better players and wanting to be in the spotlight and not getting a chance. The next season we made two teams, A and B, put them into divisions at the correct level too suit the teams. This had the affect of letting the kids who never got the spotlight to now get the chance to show what they could do. They started to score goals and they are now the better kids on the team, even though they have only improved a small amount they themselves think they are great players and seem to enjoy the game even more now. Also the parents are happier because they see the kids with smiles on there faces.

We have teams in the NDSL and DDSL and the rules state that you can only bring ten players to a seven aside game, so we only sign ten pair team. All kids that show up play at least 20 mins in a 40 min game.

So if you want kids to improve and enjoy group them by ability well that's what I think anyway.

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Originally Posted by Derek

You need to seperate on ability because if you lump all kids together then when you play a game and have five kids with a lot of ability and five with limited ability on the same side week in week out then what happens is the weaker kids never get the ball and when they do they will make a balls of it because they are under so much pressure form the better kids not from the coaches and parents.
So if you want kids to improve and enjoy group them by ability well that's what I think anyway.

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I take your point Derek and in any case while its far from ideal thats generally what will happen in any case.The stronger players get selected. Ive a tendancy at training never to pick the same kids out every time.I often pick a kid who has been well behaved or really trying without back chat etc to captain a side. You'll be surprised just how much confidence a young kid will take from that. Thats a time I always take to build confidences.

Its not easy at times not to get annoyed with the wains. I'm a firm believer that if I have to tell a young caddy to behave himself I administer encouragement in equal measure. It generally works well, they know you won't take the messing but they know you are very fair.

I was out on the job today and was driving through the town and met my U-10's who were out with their teacher from school. The craic we had and I think the teacher may have had a problem getting them back together but it show's a respect and thats what'll keep them coming back. Its not easy now commanding respect off young fella's but its achievable and it has a huge positive effect on the entire set-up.

I'm currently stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've decided to take my career elsewhere and thats not a definite but its very likely. My involvement at underage level and what Ive achieved at this level is the major yhing holding me back currently. I haven't heard anything of whether there are underage club's or opportunities to coach at underage level in Roscommon. From what I've heard its a GAA heartland. If anybody has any information or contacts that just might help me make my decision for the future.

Thanks,

Brendan

Basically, in my case, where I have around 30 at Under 8, and the same at under 10, i am bamboozled :eek:
The problem is supervision. to bring 3 teams out to a blitz is too many, most have 2 as a limit per club. So how do I leave the rest at home? I have come to the conclusion that my original idea, due to start in a fortnight, is to hold local street leagues every week, and then, somehow, without rejection, pick an top 10 at each group and switch them away to another session. And then keep the rest at the local fun level, with week to week incentives (Bribes!) to keep them entertained. They may develop, and be promoted to the Acadamy, but only on a year by year basis. :(

Any other suggestions!!?? By the way, UEFA say 5 a side Under 8s, 7 a side under 10s. :ball: