The case for a National Academy

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

It all starts early.
My brother plays u11 in the SDFL. His team have just achieved a second successive promotion by the the long ball.
Whilst it's effective not one of the players on the time has excelled or improved in those 2 years to the extent that you would hope. And now they get to have all the fun of 11 a side next season. Patently ridiculous for kids that size.
These are the things that cab be changed with next to no cost. A smaller ball on a smaller pitch. A ban in kicking it over head height would ensure ball control would have to develop. Anyway that's an over simplification but you know where I'm doing with this.

Your point about Man U or other teams whilst valid is really moot at this stage. Training up these kids will not mean they are lost to Ireland or Irish soccer indefinitely.

Let's start first...

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Originally Posted by gastric

Your points are certainly valid and I am not trying to be negative for the sake of being negative. But in terms of funding or possible finance where would the incentive be if ultimately the products of an academy ended up overseas. I still think we need clubs here that could further develop these players for such an academy to work. Unfortunately, the LOI clubs would probably be the last option for many potential players. This isn't meant to be a criticism more just the nature of soccer in Ireland.

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This conversation started over in the Shane Long thread and it got me thinking about the way Irish players gravitate (naturally) towards England and Scotland.

Now a huge bug bear of mine over the years whilst watching soccer is how the technically gifted Irish players tend to be considered luxuries and find themselves sidelined in certain teams. However a lot of that attitude stems from how Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh players grow up playing and learning the game in teams.

I think back to a friend of mine who played for Bluebell United in Dublin and he was a great little winger but he was never employed in that way. Every weekend he would go tog out be stuck up with some lanky lad and take on his knock downs and score. The entire league was based on the long ball at that age with burly CHs and CMs and the crap players on the team on the wings and at FB where they could do least damage.

That was 15 years ago.

I go watch my brother play these days and it's the same way.

Whilst I think it's important that kids learn how to win we should be looking to ensure that when these kids progress through the age-groups that they end up improving along the way. It's clear that my brother's team haven't progressed over the last 2 years in the way that they should have and I can see them getting a tonking next year when they go to 11-a-side.

Anyway, It's important to get kids playing organised sport from a very early age.

We should be throwing 4, 5, 6 year olds out onto little pitches with small sized smaller sized and let them just have fun. With no competition.

At U8-U11 level they should continue to play with smaller sized footballs and have a ban on high balls to ensure that ball control is made the priority. Small sided games should continue until at least U13 level. At this stage the technical and innate ability should be built in.

I know this is very simplistic overview but it's been a bugbear of mine for years.

These changes would cost NOTHING and would lead to a more technically adept player in the end.

Anyway, back to the national academy idea.

One of gastric's points as a con to the national academy idea was that there was nothing stopping the likes of Man U coming in and taking some of the promising players. What about it? Let them come in and take them. The very nature of a centralised national academy would mean that we should be churning out a better quality of player than we are now. Those that don't make it abroad will come home no doubt as they do now and flourish in the LOI and if the players in the LOI are technically better as a result then the LOI teams would do better and so on...

Again it's simplification of the idea but an Irish "Clairefontaine" would be the last piece in a jigsaw of changing attitudes of the players and of the coaches.

Anyway as the thread title suggests... is there a case for a national academy or am I delusional to a greater extent than normal?

how exactly does clarefontaine work?

as in who are the players contracted to? how much time to they spend at the academy if they also have clubs(if thats the case)? do they play any competitive football?

Whatever happened to the planned national academy at Abbotstown? It was supposed to cost about €10 million to develop. Suppose that was the major stumbling block. Or are there still plans to go through with it? It's definitely something Ireland badly needs.

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Originally Posted by the bear

how exactly does clarefontaine work?

as in who are the players contracted to? how much time to they spend at the academy if they also have clubs(if thats the case)? do they play any competitive football?

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The FFF foot the bill for all costs, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The FFF foot the bill for all costs, as far as I know.

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so is it promising players who are contracted to clubs are invited to come and train at the academy every so often?

Some info on Clairefontaine from Wiki:

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Registration

In order for a player to be selected to the Clairefontaine academy, he/she must be at least 13 years of age, have French citizenship, and be living and playing within the Île-de-France region, though players living in the departments of Seine-Maritime and Eure can also apply and be selected. Registration for new players at the academy normally begins in October the year before players enroll at the academy when perspective applicants are 12 years of age. Players have until December to register with their club for acceptance into the academy. The first set of trials are carried out by each district within Île-de-France. Each district selects a set number of players who will traveled to Clairefontaine to attend a tryout, which is usually held over a three-day period during the Easter school holidays. After the three days, the academy director and officials will convene to select a maximum of 22 players with three or four of the 22 being goalkeepers.

Training and accommodation

Players who are selected to attend Clairefontaine stay and train at the facilities from Monday through Friday. Players are given the weekend off to go and visit family and, also, to train and play with their parent clubs. They are given school holidays off, as well. Players are also required to meet educational criteria. Players age 13–15 training at Clairefontaine attend the Collège Catherine de Vivonne de Rambouilet in Rambouillet. After departing Rambouilet, players enroll at the nearby high school Lycée Louis Bascan de Rambouillet with hopes that they will earn their Baccalauréat. All costs required to attend an academy are borne by the federation and the Ligue Nationale de Football.

Youth development

Youth development at Clairefontaine incorporates many principles on football with their students, such as:
Making the player’s movements faster and better
Linking movements efficiently and wisely
Using the weaker foot
Weaknesses in the player’s game
Psychological factors (sports personality tests)
Medical factors
Physical tests (beep test)
Technical skills
Skill training (juggling the ball, running with the ball, dribbling, kicking, passing and ball control)
Tactical (to help the ball carrier, to get the ball back, to offer support, to pass the ball and follow the pass, positioning and the movement into space)

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Players seem to play at the academy for between two and four years and the Ligue Nationale de Football also cover some of the costs. The players don't appear to have to pay a fee or anything like that.

This is all I can find on the proposed FAI National Academy: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...k=view&id=2559

That's from 2007 though and Sporting Fingal aren't even in existence any longer so, as I haven't heard anything of it recently, I assume those grand plans have since been scrapped. Can anyone provide an update or confirmation?

so players remain attached to their original clubs but also attend the academy.and then the player goes back to the club after 2 years. seems like a good system. we are definentley in need of something.

As you said though where will the money come from. hadn't heard about that turvey development. any plans in abottstown are def gone though, flushed down the bertie bowl

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Originally Posted by the bear

so players remain attached to their original clubs but also attend the academy.and then the player goes back to the club after 2 years. seems like a good system. we are definentley in need of something.

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Not necessarily. I don't think the players have to remain attached to the clubs although I assume they probably could if they and the club wanted, but would there be much worth in it given Clairefontaine is almost like a cross between a youth club and a boarding school in itself? Take Hatem Ben Arfa, for example; he had been playing with AC Boulogne-Billancourt until 1999, when he joined the academy at the age of around 12. He trained at the academy during the weeks and played with FC Versailles during his weekends off. He finally departed the academy when he signed for Lyon in 2002 aged about 15. He doesn't appear to have been attached to AC Boulogne-Billancourt throughout his time at the academy in any way, but I'm open to correction.

This is some translated information on how Clarefontaine operates from the website of the FFF:

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Conditions for registration

The Centre Technique National Fernand Sastre, Clairefontaine, young players have adequate facilities and competent support for the lead at the top level. The training takes place in the Institut National du Football (INF). Admission is competitive, it is open to young players born in 1998. Candidates must register with their club in December 2010. Departmental phase ends in March while the first regional round will take place from Monday 11 to Friday, April 15 at Clairefontaine.

Conditions of registration

Registration for boys of 13 years are among the districts of Ile de France through the clubs.

User registration :

Registration is done only through clubs from Districts
The first rounds of detection are carried out in the Districts of which the young depend upon convocation by the District (after registration)
Subsequent rounds are held at Clairefontaine, convened by the INF (during the Easter school holidays).
A course of three days in late May, brings together the best 40-45 players at Clairefontaine.
Maximum 22 players are selected after the competition (including 3 or 4 goalies).

Events

Essentially the game (Thursday reduced to 7 to 9)
Test individual technique (juggling, pipes, ...)
Sprint
Endurance test at the final stage
INF - FOOT Education: 2 year term

Accommodation

The Centre Technique National Fernand Sastre at Clairefontaine (near Rambouillet)
Internat Sunday evening (21:00) to Friday evening after practice.
No internship during the school holidays.
All costs are borne by the French Football Federation and the National Football League, except:
- Lunch taken at the College or high school (about 180 € per quarter)

Studies

College of Catherine de Vivonne Rambouilet for youth enrolled in 4th, 3rd
Lycée Louis Bascan Rambouillet education for young people in general or Second Second Professional (BEP Bac Accounting or "pro")
For these two structures, schedules are arranged.

Football

Young athletes train five days a week.
On weekends, they play in the club of their choice.
Medical monitoring is provided by a dedicated and experienced.

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Players can choose a club to play with at the weekends whilst part of the academy.

Is it common for associations to have national set-ups such as this or it just a select few of the elites? For example, I believe the FA are in the midst of developing a national football centre in England that will cost somewhere in the region of £100 million. Obviously, we've nowhere near that kind of money to be splashing out, but we don't have such a vast and expansive football structure either. The emphasis of the English academy, however, appears to have turned to developing coaches rather than its original primary intention of providing a "finishing school" for young players being realised. Still, I'd imagine the latter will underpin a significant part of its remit.

There's a national technical development plan in place, under Koeverman's charge I presume. I've no idea what it aims to achieve and whether it's doing it though, othyer than what "it says on the tin". There's more than one way to skin a cat, but as long as something is being done to recognise that technical and tactical development is the way forward I'd be happy.

Bonnie,
Thanks for setting up the thread and to those who have contributed to it.

The first point I feel I need to make is how bizarre it is that we as a country let 15 year olds sign up for English and Scottish teams. What other industry would let this happen? We take it for granted and wish them the best of luck and when it doesn't work out what happens then? I only know of one player who 'when the dream ended' had people give him a hard time in the pub. The point I am making is that these young people should be not allowed leave until they are at least 18 which is normal in society. I know there are support systems etc in place, but it still is weird that this occurs.

The second point I want to make is that we need a uniform approach to coaching starting from 5 year olds upwards. We also need to decide what sort of football we want to play keeping in mind our strengths and weaknesses. A uniform approach and a vision would help in preparing players of the future too.

In regards to a National Academy, the idea is excellent and could build on my second point above. Any player entering it would share a common philosophy of how the game is to be played. The weakness I feel in this idea is why would the FAI as the major shareholder in such a project be interested if all we did was feed players to English clubs? The LOI clubs would certainly and rightly so not support such a venture. Therefore the only way forward be for us to join or create our own Celtic League.
Let's be honest the Scottish Premier League is and will always be a two horse race and the entry of maybe three Irish teams possibly two from us and one from NI would help reinvigorate the competition, but you get the idea hopefully. Yes the teams might have to start off in Division Two, but it would certainly create interest. Yes, there will be much opposition from Scottish teams which to be honest I don't how you counter, but in terms of UEFA opposition it is about time the EU which wants to control everything looked at the issues in Irish soccer - young people leaving home at a young age and how this problem can be alleviated.
Through such a proposal, this academy could feed these clubs and then when these players are at a mature age like Doyle, Coleman and Long, they could make the move to England if wanted by clubs there.

I know there are many issues with my ideas, what happens to the LOI teams, Scottish and UEFA opposition to such a plan, but I feel it is one way forward and would mean many young people would not have to leave home at a very young age.

Been away for a few years but I had this comforting feeling in the back of my mind that while the lads in the national team, with the exception of three or four, have little or no technical ability, at least the coaches at home were working on correcting that problem. But I guess from reading the posts on here that is not the case. Very troubling indeed to think that for midfield creativity in ten / fifteen years time we'll be looking at young fellas similar to Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews. Something has to be done by the FAI to fix this poverty in the Irish game.

Bumped into a former Manchester United player the other day and we struck up a conversation about Barcelona. My question to him was did he think kids in England and Ireland would ever be taught to play that way. He pointed to the interference of parents who just want to see their kids win games all day long. He's not the first to say it and I agree 100 per cent with him.

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Originally Posted by gastric

Let's be honest the Scottish Premier League is and will always be a two horse race and the entry of maybe three Irish teams possibly two from us and one from NI would help reinvigorate the competition, but you get the idea hopefully. Yes the teams might have to start off in Division Two, but it would certainly create interest.

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Beyond the peculiar concept of a few Irish sides joining a foreign league, which probably isn't a fore-runner anyway as both UEFA and League of Ireland figures would be likely to oppose it absolutely, it's not really as if Irish sides - both north and south - would be in any position to challenge the dominance of Celtic and Rangers if they did join the Scottish league system. At the minute, some Irish sides could probably compete relatively comfortably around low-to-mid-table of the SPL, unless you're advocating the formation of a set of new, larger clubs, maybe akin to the rugby situation whereby each province is represented or something? Would the LOI lose out on its European qualification places and so forth?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Bumped into a former Manchester United player the other day and we struck up a conversation about Barcelona. My question to him was did he think kids in England and Ireland would ever be taught to play that way. He pointed to the interference of parents who just want to see their kids win games all day long. He's not the first to say it and I agree 100 per cent with him.

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Interference in what way? Threats to under-age managers and such?... I'm not sure I buy it and would need something more compelling to convince me that a competitive attitude amongst parents is to blame for the approach we seem to take.

Yes, new sides would need to be created and the above mentioned academy would be used to feed these new clubs. Granted opposition would be strong from the LOI teams, but being brutually honest how exactly are they helping Irish players develop presently? In terms of UEFA, they are happy to accomodate teams for political reasons including Derry City and Welsh sides play in England for traditional reasons. The time will come when I believe the EU will challenge the power of UEFA which presently discriminates in favour of the bigger countries and clubs. It is its own cartel of sorts. The transfer market involves massive sums of money and in the current economic situation does not make sense. For me personally, this need to stop youngsters leaving home at a young age should be argument enough for the EU to look at what it can do to solve this issue.

In Australia, they realised that soccer was not growing and that ethnically based clubs were an issue. The solution was to basically scrap what existed and start again. While the A League is not a brilliant league, it quickly created a support base, has given young players here a platform to develop their careers and older players are returning to play in it after they finish playing in Europe. Imagine in the future if a player like Robbie Keane could end his career in Ireland? It would be fantastic to see!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Interference in what way? Threats to under-age managers and such?... I'm not sure I buy it and would need something more compelling to convince me that a competitive attitude amongst parents is to blame for the approach we seem to take.

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Interference in so far as the parents want their kids to be on a winning team. So it's belt the ball long, and play at 100 miles per hr. Who cares as long as their kids are on a winning team. They think that their kids, because they win at U-10 and U-11 are going to be superstars. What needs to be done is have the kids play 4 a side at that age. Let them learn the intricacies of beating a man or two and passing the ball and to hell with winning. It should be about enjoyment at that age and learning. It's not about the parents, it's about teaching kids the right way. Alas we don't have too many coaches that think that way.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Interference in so far as the parents want their kids to be on a winning team. So it's belt the ball long, and play at 100 miles per hr. Who cares as long as their kids are on a winning team. They think that their kids, because they win at U-10 and U-11 are going to be superstars. What needs to be done is have the kids play 4 a side at that age. Let them learn the intricacies of beating a man or two and passing the ball and to hell with winning. It should be about enjoyment at that age and learning. It's not about the parents, it's about teaching kids the right way. Alas we don't have too many coaches that think that way.

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I hear you, but how does this alleged interference manifest itself though? Do parents threaten to take their kids out of the team if a manager doesn't have them playing a certain way to the parents' satisfaction? I don't see how else this alleged parental interference would operate. Sure, we probably have too many coached who aren't thinking outside the box, but I'm not convinced parents have anything to do with it.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I hear you, but how does this alleged interference manifest itself though? Do parents threaten to take their kids out of the team if a manager doesn't have them playing a certain way to the parents' satisfaction? I don't see how else this alleged parental interference would operate. Sure, we probably have too many coached who aren't thinking outside the box, but I'm not convinced parents have anything to do with it.

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I don't think we should go down the road of the destruction of the league and that's not the point of this thread.

It's not that hard to reintegrate the kids hat have been to the academy. The good ones will be snapped up as always but as time goes as is always the case the ones who don't make it will come back.

First things first though. Coaches need to taught that winning isn't everything and player development should be the priority.

Danny, the manifestation of the interference is not that important. however from experience of my bro's team and when I played as a kid the parents' put pressure on coaches on the sideline constantly trying to get little Kyle onto the pitch. The coach then sees that being fair to all the players is what's important.
So what you end up with is the worst of both worlds... there's no tactical approach if you're just throwing on players for the sake of it and then if there's no tactical awareness we just chuck the ball long.
Pointless.