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I've always considered myself to be tolerant and open-minded, but I can't help feeling uncomfortable when the poppy makes its annual appearance on our TV screens. That's not to say that everyone who fought and died in various wars shouldn't be remembered, just that it continues to remain an incredibly divisive symbol. It would perhaps have greater credibility if people from defeated countries also wore the flower, but as it stands, it appears to be a glorification of war than a symbol of peace.
My main objection is that the poppy only supports the British Legion, and they don't (or certainly didn't) support those in protected occupations such as the Merchant Navy. The Merchant Navy actually lost more than the Royal Navy in both World Wars, not that you'd think it some times.
It supports soldiers from all conflicts - it's always spun here about Irish Soldiers in the 1st and 2nd World Wars, but the British Legion supports the British Armed Forces fullstop. So if you don't support Iraq or Afganistan (or the activities in the North) don't buy one. You can remember the fallen Irish in the World Wars by going to a Rememberence Day Service without buying into the rest.
.....
Is it really that divisive in the Republic? Of course thousands continue to serve in the British forces, as they always have done, but I'd be surprised if many others were that interested. At the most trite level, avoid British TV during late October and November if you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
There does seem to be a trend towards glorifying the military, as in America- although if its main evidence is an obligation on all public figures (politicians, TV presenters, slebs) to wear one as a uniform for a month, so be it.
The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I don't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but that won't stop me supporting the appeal. Squaddies don't start wars, but they're still getting killed and injured.Quote:
It supports soldiers from all conflicts - it's always spun here about Irish Soldiers in the 1st and 2nd World Wars, but the British Legion supports the British Armed Forces fullstop. So if you don't support Iraq or Afganistan (or the activities in the North) don't buy one. You can remember the fallen Irish in the World Wars by going to a Rememberence Day Service without buying into the rest
Just thinking about that British soldier who took aim at the 8 year old Iraqi kid and blow her head of. All in Wikileaks. yeah heroes my as sQuote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Thing that is a joke is that everybody on TV has one on, I mean no matter what you think surely not everybody has to be a sheep. I like the Channel four News guy who never wears one solely for this reason - cant remember his name!!!
edit - jon snow
IIRC, Jon Snow refuses to wear badges, emblems etc of any kind. He believes that wearing them would be a conflict with maintaining impartiality as a journalist. A sensible enough reason, and one that, perhaps more journalists across the water should consider. Personally, I'm ambivalent on the poppy, as I suspect are most people in Ireland: I've never worn one, but if somebody decides that they want to wear one that's their choice.
Indeed. But hardly contradicting my point, so not sure why you highlight it? Put simply, ex-Military charity deserves support however unheroically- or criminally- some individuals behave.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
As above, it's a long-standing convention that's increasingly becoming a fetish.Quote:
Thing that is a joke is that everybody on TV has one on, I mean no matter what you think surely not everybody has to be a sheep
Fair enough. I think that apart from the obvious exception in NI- where the poppy season row is simply a regular aspect of the wider conflict- the only reason why most people in the RoI are as much as ambilvalent, is simply that they're more likely to follow British media than those in say, France, Germany or Benelux.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Wouldn't wear one, have no problem with others doing so.
Grand, they'll definitely still won't be getting any money from me so. Like I said, Merchant Navy seamen weren't allowed leave to join the Navy even if they wanted too, and it's the poppy appeals own shame that they continue to make the wars only about military personnel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
It's divisive if people don't even use the correct name of the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
We're talking politically at least in this instance....
As for the silly US 'glorification' of 'their' wars by some of their populace, more fool them and their deluded paranoia and self-righteousness. If the Brits want to go down this path, makes them equally stupid.
Not sure how sorry we should feel for squaddies, but even assuming all those lost are 'cannon-fodder', the fact is that most conflicts that they've been involved in since 1945 have been largely pointless.
And if you invade any country be it 50 or 15000 miles away, they can hardly be surprised to meet armed resistance (and justifiably so) and take consequent casualties....
Which is why most decent people would question the statement,
Take the later point, but contradictory to support the soldiers there, given they've caused a lot more death and destruction than they've had inflicted upon them. Especially when they illegally invade other peoples territory.Quote:
The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military.
I don't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but that won't stop me supporting the appeal. Squaddies don't start wars, but they're still getting killed and injured.
And again contradicted here also...
(You really want to condone war criminals?? Thanks, but no thanks.)
And the latter being the real reason why people have become tired of the ever-reaching hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Have no problems with the Legion helping those injured up to the end of WW2 fighting v. Fascism or in peace-keeping duties. But history and circumstances mean that this is probably only 10% of those need in of their help.
I'll be wearing on on November 11th this year, for the first time. As a deep green northern nationalist, that's a big step for me, so if anyone is interested I'm going to give my reasons.
My great grandfather fought for the wrong army in the wrong war in 1916. For his trouble he was shot by the Germans and was awarded a couple of medals by the British. In the early 70's members of the British Army raided his house without reason, and stole his medals.
The reason I'm doing it is a collective need to move on. And so I did a deal with a friend of mine who was a member of the Royal Irish Regiment. If he wore a lily on Easter Monday, I'd wear a poppy in November. He kept his side of the bargain, and I'm a man of my word.
I know nothing is perfect about this arrangement. The British legion (who I didn't give a penny to as it happens) paid Lee Cleggs legal bill. Similarly the lily isn't once again the national symbol it should be, and the guys who sold him the lily were probably SF, rather than the National Graves Association who should really be selling the things nationwide.
But its a start to the appropriate remembrance of those who died for this country, no matter what country it is.
As an aside, I also think much more should be made of National Famine Memorial Day.
Fine and good sentiments Btw. Interesting deal you made there.
And ironic the Army took their medals back, but terrible it should happen that way.
In principle, up to 1945, absolutely no problem with those soldiers (of all hues in the main) being commemorated.
After that, peace-keepers/U.N. only....
I think you've made your feeling pretty clear, actually. You don't have any sympathy for them. Why not say so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Read the thread: it means as distinct from supporting other veterans, such as the Merchant Navy.Quote:
Which is why most decent people would question the statement "The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military"
Most people in Britain (however 'decent' you think they are) support the Poppy Appeal, it raised about £35 million last year. In many cases, including my own, they're perfectly able to distinguish between unjustifiable wars and the welfare of those killed and injured there, or their dependents.
As above, I've assumed that most people in the Republic (like most people in Belgium or Norway, say) aren't that bothered about how Britain chooses to provide for ex-service welfare.
It's not at all contradictory. Welfare and warfare are simply two separate issues.Quote:
contradictory to support the soldiers there, given they've caused a lot more death and destruction than they've had inflicted upon them
I've explicitly criticised them, assuming you mean Blair, Brown, Cameron and co. You can't seriously claim that supporting ex-service welfare contradicts that.Quote:
You really want to condone war criminals??
Interesting story. As I live well away from Belfast and only visit occasionally it's only a hunch, but I suspect your willingness to move on is increasingly shared. A reflection of much reduced violence, basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to Walsall
Supporting the Poppy appeal * at this stage, is largely condoning illegal wars.
It's unfortunate that soldiers get injured, but unless they're defending their countries borders, why would anyone have any great sympathies?
No-one seems to give two fecks about all the civilian populations killed in Afghanistan & Iraq after all, whose nos. are far far greater.
Similarly, even in the North that was the case....
Even in the 'ever-beloved ' Britain, I doubt even 50% of the population would bother to contribute * either. And unsurprisingly with Muslims and other ethnic minorities, the figure would be closer to 90%.
Certainly with the latter, they care as little about the squaddies as little as they perceive them, their superiors (officers & politicians) or British/'Allied'/US forces care about them or their communities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The people I'm supporting through this charity didn't start any wars. They chose (or in many cases had little choice of) a job in which the likelihood of death or injury was clearly higher than for most civilians in their country. Or they may have been the dependent of a soldier and not been directly involved in any warfare. So quite obviously it's possible to both support the charity and oppose the wars, as I do.Quote:
It's unfortunate that soldiers get injured, but unless they're defending their countries borders, why would anyone have any great sympathies?
You what? There has been a large-scale and sustained opposition to the Iraq and Afghan wars in Britain, largely because of the inevitable local civilian casualties resulting from them.Quote:
No-one seems to give two fecks about all the civilian populations killed in Afghanistan & Iraq after all, whose nos. are far far greater
What are you talking about? No-one is suggesting Britain goes uncriticised. Didn't you read/ understand my point immediately above?Quote:
Even in the 'ever-beloved ' Britain, I doubt even 50% of the population would bother to contribute * either. And unsurprisingly with Muslims and other ethnic minorities, the figure would be closer to 90%
The Poppy Appeal charity is the 34th most popular in this country. In two or three weeks it raises an average 60 pence per head from every person in Britain, while it's endorsed by almost every public figure and organisation (and always has been, long before the recent accusations of compulsion). So I'm fairly sure your doubt is misplaced. Got any evidence for it?
As you suggest Muslims (who make up about 3- 4% of the population here) are less likely to support military charities.
Are you a spokesman for British Islam and ethnic minorities? It's perceive, btw.Quote:
Certainly with the latter, they care as little about the squaddies as little as they preceive them, their superiors (officers & politicians) or British/'Allied'/US forces care about them or their communities
I agree with Gather Round, squaddies, WREN's etc didn't start wars, however they don't have to fight them. If they had a doubt about their duty they could leave, or refuse to go - it's called being a conscientious objector. By now every single serving member of the British, US and their lackeys armed forces know that Afghanistan was about a pipeline, Iraq about oil and putting manners on Saudi, so with a heart and brain they should refuse. I have sympathy for them if they're killed or wounded, for their families too (same as a drug dealer who gets gunned down - death is death no matter what), though I could never respect them enough to support them in any form.
This sounds odd, though watch it - tonight I'm stuck with my family who are watching X Factor (I've never seen this show before, apart from 10 minutes with Jedward in May or something), for Louis and Mary - who are poppy free - they won't show any full length shots even reasonably close, unlike the rest of the people I can see there. I wonder why?
It doesn't make me uncomfortable to see the poppy. I do think that people on TV seem to wear them for a long time - over 2 weeks- so the whole thing is a bit in your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
My grand uncle was killed in WW1 and i plan to visit his grave in France some day but I don't feel the need to wear a poppy in memory of him.
TBH the poppy brings to my mind WW1, which IMO, was little more than mass butchery of the European working class. I won't start on Iraq and Afghanistan.
I know soldiers don't start wars but to describe men who died in these wars as the "glorious dead" sticks in my craw a bit.
Just my tuppence worth.
To answer your points....
Hmm, except since National Service ended in Britain no-one's been forced to join up. Agree the families are worthy of support, but not the perpetrators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
As the Spud man says, if they'd had had a brain of their own they would make more effort at not being cannon fodder in all those pointless conflicts since 1945.
Which have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population. And paranoia of certain politicians. Sound familar??Quote:
You what? There has been a large-scale and sustained opposition to the Iraq and Afghan wars in Britain, largely because of the inevitable local civilian casualties resulting from them.
Sadly body-bags are far more likely to end the conflict than the experience of the hapless locals, who we should note for whom, there is no national campaign of financial collection in Britain or even great practical assistance given the destruction imposed by them and their ilk.
You mentioned a few politicians but didn't suggest the criticism you claim! Though if it helps I will, but more in the context of wider apathy as per above.Quote:
No-one is suggesting Britain goes uncriticised. Didn't you read/ understand my point immediately above?
Only anecdotally in that I see very few members of the public these days or friends and acquaintances ever wearing a Poppy. Maybe because they have a conscience.Quote:
The Poppy Appeal charity is the 34th most popular in this country. In two or three weeks it raises an average 60 pence per head from every person in Britain. Got any evidence
Not sure about the 'Brit' bit but certainly worked with and known dozens of Muslims, none of whom I've ever seen with a poppy or making a donation. And given world events and the misguided role of British forces, never likely to.Quote:
Are you a spokesman for British Islam and ethnic minorities? It's perceive, btw.
Similarly with around 90% of 'ethnic minorities', whatever they are!
But if you're confused, why not ask them?? Think I can predict their response....
As for typos, spelling and the like, it would pay to give your attention closer to home !
;)
By offering that basic sympathy, surely you are supporting them in broadly the same way I am?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
As C82 and I said in our opening posts, the compulsion to wear a poppy is uncomfortable at least. Unfortunately in many cases the British mainstream media, far from ignoring non-wearers, will single them out for attention/ criticism.Quote:
watching X Factor (I've never seen this show before, apart from 10 minutes with Jedward in May or something), for Louis and Mary - who are poppy free - they won't show any full length shots even reasonably close, unlike the rest of the people I can see there. I wonder why?
PS I'm a new viewer too, Wagner lives nearby. His friends and neighbors have bunting up outside the flat ;)
I'm surprised Walsh isn't wearing one - afterall he's had his boys Westlife launch the thing in previous years!