A quick question that I don't want going into a huge debate.

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15/04/2004, 10:17 PM
eirebhoy

A quick question that I don't want going into a huge debate.

I know there is plenty of threads on this but I wasn't reading 18 pages of a thread to then reply. This thread can be closed when I get an answer. It is for all the anti-Roy's out there. I have debated this subject on many threads but never got a definite reason:

...How exactly how is Keane a traitor?

That is what you hear all the 40% of the people on this board call him. He had a row with Mick which the Genisus stated Keane was right in what he said. Mick accused him of faking injury and he flipped. Keane said in his book that if he wasn't accused of faking injury the row wouldn't have happened and he would have played in the world cup.

He either left the camp or got thrown out but that is neither here nor there because Mick wasn't staying on as manager if Keane was allowed back and the players backed the manager up so Keane had to go. Keane than had an interview on RTE saying how much he would love to play for Ireland in the World Cup and asked to go back. Keane was right over in Saipan but he was sent home from Saipan. Mick then said its up to the players but they refused to allow him back (I think Mick said he wouldn't stay on if Keane was allowed back so the players had no choice).

The vast majority of fans wanted him back for the European qualifiers (approx. 85%) therefore a lot of the present anti-roy people wanted him back for the qualifiers. He got a huge welcome at Tolka park and I didn't hear one boo. He than had a meeting with Kerr. If he had've came back it would have been against the advice of his boss and they would have fell out meaning he probably wouldn't be at Manchester United today. He couldn't go against the advice of his boss and medical staff. There was no other reason why he didn't come back as he said he liked the way the team was being run and he would love to play for Ireland again (the last page of his book).

I'd like someone to tell me the reason they don't want to see Keane play for Ireland again and how he's a "traitor". I think people just got it stuck in their heads that he's a traitor and never actually thought about it, just like you can hate a person like Mark Williams without even knowing him.

BTW I am not a Corkman or a Manchester United fan.
16/04/2004, 3:24 AM
4tothefloor

Totally agree with everything you've said there, well put. He is not a traitor, he is a proud man who was forced out and as you rightly put it, there was no way back until now. If he didn't care about Ireland he wouldn't be doing this now. I'm more than happy with the way everything worked out in the end (bar not qualifying for Euro 04), as I think Irish football will be for the better because of this in the long run.

I'm not a Cork man or Man Ure fan either btw. I'm a Limerick man, I support Liverpool, and I can't stand United.
16/04/2004, 8:06 AM
only1kilbane

Fair enought if he had his problems with Mc Carthy but firstly he should have left the squad after the world cup. But the thing that really annoys me is when Brian took over and Judas was given the chance to joing back up in the squad for the Scotland game he declined citing his knee. Now over a year later whats happened to the medical advice that stopped him playing for us when Brian wanted him? I would have had a lot more respect for the man if he had come back in February and helped us have a real go at qualifying for euro 04 !
16/04/2004, 8:21 AM
Eirenua

He is not a traitor. Brian Kerr said in hi statement the last day that Keane had to resolve issues with Man Utd before making himself available for selection. That is the reason he did not rejoin the team when Brian took charge. Keane had to have his BOSS on his side before he rejoined. It has taken him over a year to do so which shows his desire to play for his country again. It cannot be easy to convince Alex F to see your point of view. If he had ignored Alex F and rejoined the team last year I have no doubt Alex would have dropped him and Keane would have been no use to us if he was not playing for his club.

There should be no booing of any player at matches unless they commit violent fouls against the Irish teams.

Do not hear anyone booing Matt Holland at matches and he was seen on TV at Ipswich match with hand on heart singing "God Save the Queen". it was a playoff game.

Thats a traitor
16/04/2004, 8:26 AM
Plastic Paddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eirenua

Do not hear anyone booing Matt Holland at matches and he was seen on TV at Ipswich match with hand on heart singing "God Save the Queen". it was a playoff game.

Thats a traitor

I absolutely have to take issue with you on this. Holland is no traitor to anyone. He has an English mother and holds dual nationality. It is his right to sing his other national anthem, just as it is to sing Amhran na bhFiann. Don't ever forget that some 2G and 3G people have other lines of ancestry besides Irish. There are a few on here who fall into that category, and you'd be lucky to walk away after referring to any of them as "traitors".

:) PP
16/04/2004, 8:56 AM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor74

Nor does his approach to the qualifier, when he decided that he would play for Ireland, skip a game for Ireland, and play for his club in the CL.

I hate when players miss friendlies, never mind qualifiers so I agree with you on that point. But, he is certainly not the only player in the past or current teams who missed an interntional match and magically appeared in a club match. When players retire from international football for no obvious reason it is just as bad but I wouldn't say they're putting their club before their country, its all down to money and football is a short career. If Keane was paid by Ireland instead of United I'm sure he wouldn't miss an international match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by only1kilbane

But the thing that really annoys me is when Brian took over and Judas was given the chance to joing back up in the squad for the Scotland game he declined citing his knee. Now over a year later whats happened to the medical advice that stopped him playing for us when Brian wanted him?

He declined but I'm sure it wasn't up to him at the time otherwise he wouldn't be back today. He said in the press conference that his knee has settled a lot and he feels he can play a bit more. Ferguson obviously doesn't see him as indespensable anymore and he owes him this favour. Fergie obviously felt he is not going to be at United forever and Keane will be gone sooner or later.
16/04/2004, 9:05 AM
Declan_Michael

Firstly nobody denies that Roy Keane did not raise valid points re: FAI set up. Nobody denies that he is a great player.

However the first problem arises when Keane did not play friendlies. Fans pay good money to see a full strength Irish side. Keane should have been there. If McGrath and Staunton could play friendlies well into their 30's then so can Keane. It looked like Keane's status allowed him to miss friendlies but do you see Ronaldo, Beckham, Zinedane do the same thing?

The World Cup thing was a mess from start to finish - the confusion over the Quinn charity match. Arriving in Saipan then wanting to go home - why keep a player who does not wish to be there? If his problem was the facilities why raise the issue a week before Ireland's biggest game in 8 years. Keane had travelled with the international set up for 10 years he knew the score. If he had an issue he should have raised it after the World Cup. Then we had the dog walking incident. Keane should have went to ground after being sent home. Instead the images were broadcast around the globe embarrassing the nation.

If McCarthy was the problem why did he not return when Kerr was installed as manager? What has changed injury wise? Do hip injuries clear up over night? How exactly is the FAI now so professional. The Gensis report were only recommendations have they been implemented? Keane must regret missing the WC and is now in the last chance saloon. However by 2006 I'm sure he'll be washed up.

On the issue of Matt Holland I'd rather a team full of 2/3 generation who turn out to play for Ireland whether it be away to Samoa in a friendly or at the world cup against Brazil. Does living and working in Britain make you a 'traitor?' or reading a British newspaper or watching Coronation Street? :rolleyes:
16/04/2004, 9:21 AM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Declan_Michael

However the first problem arises when Keane did not play friendlies. Fans pay good money to see a full strength Irish side. Keane should have been there. If McGrath and Staunton could play friendlies well into their 30's then so can Keane. It looked like Keane's status allowed him to miss friendlies but do you see Ronaldo, Beckham, Zinedane do the same thing?

Ok, you said what has changed with his injury, I will ask you what has changed to make you now dislike him for missing friendlies? He has always been like that but nobody cared and very few called him a traitor. On the way to Saipan we knew what Keane was like but we still backed him so nothing should have changed. Anyway, I can't see him missing anymore friendlies, whether he plays or not.

Quote:

If McCarthy was the problem why did he not return when Kerr was installed as manager? What has changed injury wise? Do hip injuries clear up over night? How exactly is the FAI now so professional. The Gensis report were only recommendations have they been implemented? Keane must regret missing the WC and is now in the last chance saloon. However by 2006 I'm sure he'll be washed up.

About his change in injury he said his knee has settled a lot. Read my previous post for my elaboration on that question. The FAI is more professional because McCarthy is gone, thats all he really cares about. His manager wouldn't allow him return 14 months ago but had a change of heart. Also, O'Shea must have told him that it is better arranged and he probably feels arranging the Brazil and Czech matches were a sign of professionalism. These are only questions Keane can answer but why presume he is lying, He is going to try a lot more for Ireland than he does for United to win the fans back. Give him a second chance.
16/04/2004, 9:32 AM
Declan_Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Ok, you said what has changed with his injury, I will ask you what has changed to make you now dislike him for missing friendlies? He has always been like that but nobody cared and very few called him a traitor. On the way to Saipan we knew what Keane was like but we still backed him so nothing should have changed. Anyway, I can't see him missing anymore friendlies, whether he plays or not.

About his change in injury he said his knee has settled a lot. Read my previous post for my elaboration on that question. The FAI is more professional because McCarthy is gone, thats all he really cares about. His manager wouldn't allow him return 14 months ago but had a change of heart. Also, O'Shea must have told him that it is better arranged and he probably feels arranging the Brazil and Czech matches were a sign of professionalism. These are only questions Keane can answer but why presume he is lying, He is going to try a lot more for Ireland than he does for United to win the fans back. Give him a second chance.

I stood on the terraces come rain or shine and more often than not keane did not play. I let it slide, because on those sunny days I was donning green tinted specticles. I went along with the 'Roy's a legend brigade'. Now your telling me aged 32/33 he can suddenly play friendlies?

McCarthy was not totally responsible for the FAI set up. Like the players McCarthy was an FAI employee, he was not responsible for the Ballygowen water turning up on time, he didn't book flights with Aer Lingus. What would John O'Shea know he's been an international all of 5 minutes and hardly given us great performances at that.

The FAI will need to do more to show its professionalism than play Fields of Athenry before the match or offer half time entertainment.
16/04/2004, 9:34 AM
Plastic Paddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Declan_Michael

Firstly nobody denies that Roy Keane did not raise valid points re: FAI set up. Nobody denies that he is a great player.

However the first problem arises when Keane did not play friendlies. Fans pay good money to see a full strength Irish side. Keane should have been there. If McGrath and Staunton could play friendlies well into their 30's then so can Keane. It looked like Keane's status allowed him to miss friendlies but do you see Ronaldo, Beckham, Zinedane do the same thing?

The World Cup thing was a mess from start to finish - the confusion over the Quinn charity match. Arriving in Saipan then wanting to go home - why keep a player who does not wish to be there? If his problem was the facilities why raise the issue a week before Ireland's biggest game in 8 years. Keane had travelled with the international set up for 10 years he knew the score. If he had an issue he should have raised it after the World Cup.

If McCarthy was the problem why did he not return when Kerr was installed as manager? What has changed injury wise? Do hip injuries clear up over night? How exactly is the FAI now so professional. The Gensis report were only recommendations have they been implemented? Keane must regret missing the WC and is now in the last chance saloon.

On the issue of Matt Holland I'd rather a team full of 2/3 generation who turn out to play for Ireland whether it be away to Samoa in a friendly or at the world cup against Brazil. Does living and working in Britain make you a 'traitor?' or reading a British newspaper or watching Coronation Street? :rolleyes:

With you all the way here Declan. Good points, well made.

:D PP
16/04/2004, 9:44 AM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Declan_Michael

McCarthy was not totally responsible for the FAI set up. Like the players McCarthy was an FAI employee, he was not responsible for the Ballygowen water turning up on time, he didn't book flights with Aer Lingus.

I'm not saying he did but all Keane really cared about is McCarthy gone. When McCarthy did go Ferguson wouldn't allow Keane back, end of story. If you want to dislike him for missing friendlies in the past, so be it. Why are you asking what has changed? In my opinion what has changed is Fergie is doing him a favour. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Why don't you believe him? Do you feel he has come back to play for Ireland for other reasons rather than the love of playing in green?

BTW - If he does miss anymore friendlies from now to 2006 for no reason, I will be 100% behind you. I think he deserves a secnd chance. He seems to have matured a lot as you would have seen with him calming Vieira down. He has 2 red cards in 20 months. He seems a different person. Give him a chance.
16/04/2004, 9:50 AM
Plastic Paddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I think he deserves a secnd chance. He seems to have matured a lot as you would have seen with him calming Vieira down. He has 2 red cards in 20 months. He seems a different person. Give him a chance.

Fair enough. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Whatever the view, he has his second chance. Let’s hope to God that he and the team make the most of it, and he ends up with - this time - a full campaign at the World Cup finals with which to end his international career. Wouldn't that be something?

:D PP
16/04/2004, 9:52 AM
Declan_Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I'm not saying he did but all Keane really cared about is McCarthy gone. When McCarthy did go Ferguson wouldn't allow Keane back, end of story. If you want to dislike him for missing friendlies in the past, so be it. Why are you asking what has changed? In my opinion what has changed is Fergie is doing him a favour. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Why don't you believe him? Do you feel he has come back to play for Ireland for other reasons rather than the love of playing in green?

BTW - If he does miss anymore friendlies from now to 2006 for no reason, I will be 100% behind you. I think he deserves a secnd chance. He seems to have matured a lot as you would have seen with him calming Vieira down. He has 2 red cards in 20 months. He seems a different person. Give him a chance.

Unfortnatly, I cannot give him that second chance. Its not for the friendlies its was Saipan. He spat in the faces of everyone who ever wanted to represent Ireland at that level, players, fans who had spent thousands travelling. The worst thing is, in 30 years time I'll walk into a pub in Ireland and overhere a couple of locals 'bigging up' Roy whereas the memory of McCarthy, a great servant to Ireland will have been erased.
16/04/2004, 10:10 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eirenua

Do not hear anyone booing Matt Holland at matches and he was seen on TV at Ipswich match with hand on heart singing "God Save the Queen". it was a playoff game.

Thats a traitor

I'll remember you're fine words when I'm watching Spain hammer the tans in this years European Championships, or Deportivo hammer Chelsea. Of course you're line of thinking is probably that I should support Chealsea because Duff might get a run-out, or England because the team's players play for clubs with large Irish support. You should go and look up the meaning of traitor. Keane turned his back on his country, if not in Saipan, certainly when McCarthy left, to carry on playing for an English...yes ENGLISH...football team.
16/04/2004, 10:16 AM
Plastic Paddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Declan_Michael

Unfortnatly, I cannot give him that second chance. Its not for the friendlies its was Saipan. He spat in the faces of everyone who ever wanted to represent Ireland at that level, players, fans who had spent thousands travelling. The worst thing is, in 30 years time I'll walk into a pub in Ireland and overhere a couple of locals 'bigging up' Roy whereas the memory of McCarthy, a great servant to Ireland will have been erased.

Despite agreeing with all your sentiments again (twice in one day? Nurse, the screens... ;) ) we have to accept the fact that he's made himself available again for international selection. He'll have to work bloody hard to win me round as one of the sceptics, but he'll be playing for Ireland and that's all there is to it.

:) PP