Al Qaeda and what the problem really is.

Just reading Bin Laden's latest statement on the BBC site and came across an interesting quote.

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Which religion considers your killed ones innocent and our killed ones worthless? And which principle considers your blood real blood and our blood water? Reciprocal treatment is fair and the one who starts injustice bears greater blame.

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This is the whole thing in a nutshell. Muslims are being portrayed worldwide as crazy fundamentalists who just wanna blow themselves up. The problem really is that they feel (justifiably IMO) that they are getting a raw deal, and are being treated as second class citizens. No doubting that Bin Laden's methods are wrong and that many other parts of his statement explicitly call for violence, but a comment like this surely points to the fact that the western world and the islamic world can live side by side in peace. If only looneys like Bush weren't running the place :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Bin Laden claims to have masterminded a terrorist attack that killed 3,000 innocent men, women and children, so I'd take his words with a pinch of salt. Was it Roosevelt who advocated 'speak softly...and carry a big stick'? Great advice.

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Wouldn't agree with ye there. I can sympathise with Bin Laden and his situation, to an extent. I can see why he hates the US so much. Not that he's at all right to target civilians mind.

Just read the text of his statement (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3628069.stm), and it seems entirely reasonable. He presents a very good argument and a fair offer to those who truly want peace and security.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Didn't give any such offer to the workers at the Twin Towers, did he?

Would you trust the words of an active Unionist terrorist? What makes the words of a man who has killed on many times that scale more believeable or acceptable?

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you've got to trust somebody sometime, no matter how difficult it is. where would the peace process in the 6 counties be if nobody had trusted anyone else? It is a leap of faith, and it might not always work- but the alternative is for things to stay the same or get worse

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Originally Posted by Conor74

What makes the words of a man who has killed on many times that scale more believeable or acceptable?

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The US has killed Arabs on many times that scale again. As far as I see it, Bin Laden just wants to be left alone. Fair enough demand, don't ye think?

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Originally Posted by Conor74

With Bin Laden? Are you being serious? If you want an analogy with the peace process fair enough. But throughout that process the leaders of the more extreme elements did not remain hiding in caves offering ultimatums based on the execution of civilian hostages if demands were not met. And, of course, the army remained in place for a long long time...

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Let's be realistic here. Ye can't expect Bin Laden to simply walk up to the US embassy in Kabul and ask to speak to the man in charge. He a little option but to use the methods he now does.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

A man who has dedicated his life, and a fortune built up by his family in the construction business, establishing training camps for terrorists, circling from Afghanistan to Pakistan, Saudi, Sudan, Somalia and many other countries inciting violence, a man who has been hunted for years by governments in Pakistan, Saudi and Iraq for terrorist activities? Popping up in just about every political hot spot and war in the Middle East? Doesn't seem like the actions of a man who wants to be left alone...

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Look again at his offer. The crux of it is 'you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone'. Bin Laden is a product of US involvement in the Middle East. If they leave, Bin Laden will stop going after them.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

But he has spent much of his time and money fighting the USSR in Afghanistan, long before he started seeing the US as a target.

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Bin Laden and his current campaign, even. He helped the Afghans fight the USSR for the same reasons he now fights the US.
If the US left the Middle East alone, Bin Laden would have achieved his objective, giving him nothing left to fight for.

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Originally Posted by Éanna

Muslims are being portrayed worldwide as crazy fundamentalists who just wanna blow themselves up. The problem really is that they feel (justifiably IMO) that they are getting a raw deal, and are being treated as second class citizens.

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That is true ..... all the acts of violence from their side are all "tít" .... the "tat" was already done. The media here paint an incorrect picture of Muslims. To be honest ... while i dont like seeing people die on any side, i can totally see where they are coming from. If the Muslim world were asking to be left alone then i see no wrong with that.

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Which religion considers your killed ones innocent and our killed ones worthless? And which principle considers your blood real blood and our blood water?

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Steering clear of whole political debate myself but just like to say how the above attitude annoys me in a slightly different respect.I was just thinking recently about the contrast in coverage between the Madrid Bombing or the Twin Towers attacks and the Rwanda genocide or the recent Iranian earthquake.Media coverage for the latter two was not nearly as substantial as the former,despite the fact that the human casualties involved far far outweighed those inflicted on the 'west'.We live in our little secure western society (ie Europe and N America) and look out at catastrophies in the other world and try to empathise with them but we do not really feel their enormity and significance.It's only when our comfort zone is breached do we become truley startled.We can picture the images of dead West Europeans or N Americans as normal people like us with feelings and families and lives.It disgusts me how we can take the other instances so lightly....

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Originally Posted by davros

Not necessarily getting a bad deal......just Wubya is/a Problem.......

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I find this attitude towards Bush a bit strange and yet, it's quite common. He came to power in 2001. Prior to that, was there no porblem with the US - Muslim interactions?
Then why were the sept 11th attacks planned during the time Clinton was president?
Why the attacks on US targets during the 90's?
Why have Arabs hated the US for decades?

Is that all Bush's fault?

Look, he's screwed up big time by invading Iraq and focussing on "fighting terror" rather than bulding peace. But this problem wasn't started by Bush. He hasn't helped, but he's not the central problem.

The big issue is Israel. That's where the hatred comes from. US support for the much hated Israeli state is what drives a lot of the hatred.

That, and the horror of Hawaiian shirts on US tourists.

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

...Bin Laden ..... He presents a very good argument and a fair offer to those who truly want peace and security.

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Bin Ladens offer is not of “peace”. It’s a threat that if Europe won’t back down and abandon the US, then we’ll see more Madrid style bombings.

And the offer of peace is not extended to the US.
Do you think the world should turn it’s back and allow more Sept 11th style attacks against civilian targets in the US?

Bin Laden has to be hunted down and captured.

AS well as that, we need to see serious US-Arab-Israeli dialogue to try and sort out this mess.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

But he has spent much of his time and money fighting the USSR in Afghanistan, long before he started seeing the US as a target.

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He wants imperialist powers out of Arab/Muslim countries, and I would have thought that any Irish person with any level of nationalist sympathy would understand exactly where he's coming from

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Originally Posted by liamon

And the offer of peace is not extended to the US.
Do you think the world should turn it’s back and allow more Sept 11th style attacks against civilian targets in the US?

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As long as the US continues killing civilians in Arab countries and as long as it supports Israel that will happen, regardless who thinks it right or wrong. And I don't see why Europe should stay involved- its America's mess.

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Originally Posted by liamon

I find this attitude towards Bush a bit strange and yet, it's quite common. He came to power in 2001. Prior to that, was there no porblem with the US - Muslim interactions?
Then why were the sept 11th attacks planned during the time Clinton was president?
Why the attacks on US targets during the 90's?
Why have Arabs hated the US for decades?

Is that all Bush's fault?

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its not all Bush's fault. Its the fault of every US governthat has supported Israel and its bid to exterminate the palestinians. There were plenty of problems before bush and there will be plenty of problems after. Clinton bombed iraq too, its just that nobody remembers cos he was too busy gettin jiggy with Lewinsky and managed to divert the attention away from it. I don't think Bush is THE problem, he's just symptomatic of it. The simple fact of the matter is that Arabs hate the US because it tries to tell them how to live their lives, and frankly i don't blame them one bit.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

With Bin Laden? Are you being serious? If you want an analogy with the peace process fair enough. But throughout that process the leaders of the more extreme elements did not remain hiding in caves offering ultimatums based on the execution of civilian hostages if demands were not met. And, of course, the army remained in place for a long long time...

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Fair point. But you tell me this. If Bin Laden offered, in the morning, to suspend all attacks unconditionally and sit down and discuss things and try to resolve the problems, do you think Dubya would be willing to do that? Not a hope. Its like i already said. Bin Laden has the support because he's the only one standing up to the US. There are a lot of people who would favour dialogue to resolve the middle east situation but they know that talking and the US don't go together. Bullys only understand violence, and the US is a bully.

Remember 3000 people of various nationalities died in the Twin Towers so this ain't just a US thing.

Sure the US hasn't the best record but have a look at the so called leaders of Muslim countries:
- Saudi Royalty were in chrage long before the US arrived, Gadafi in Lybia, Syrian leaders, Pakistan...etc...

I'm sure Bin Ladens family wealth has had a lot to do with the rich Saudi Royalty who selling oil to the yanks.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

What is quite possible is that he wants the US out so that he can be power broker in the Middle East and add to his vast fortune.

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And that is the only reason .... it has nothing to do with him actually wanting the best for his people and region. It has nothing to do with him being patriotic and wanting peace for his country.

The whole middle east have been bullied and have not been allowed a peaceful means to an end.

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to enable a godfather of crime take over. As has been pointed out in another thread, even countries that strongly objected to the war against Iraq have dismissed his 'offer' not to continue murdering if his demands are met with the contempt it deserves.

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The West have labelled him with the Godfather of Crime, the doer of evil, the devils underpants kinda thing and it is in their interest ... it sells papers and it is good for the climate of war.

I know his offer is very simplistic .... yea or nah ..... but he is offering. If you want peace ... go for it ... if not .... dont.


Much like Bush ..... if you are in, you are with us .... if you are out .... you are against us.

* well ok .... seeing as you are all out, maybe you are not against us ... just kinda not involved to the degree i'd like * ....... Chief Wigam of the world police splurts out his "well what i meant to say was ...."

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Originally Posted by Conor74

What's 'his country'

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Conor ... there is no one else. i know it is not his country .... but is Israel Bushs country .... yet look at the last meetings outcome. It is not some much a country .... it is Arab V US, just like the support for Osama ..... they hail from all over the place.

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why do they want him for terrorism?

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They dont, he is defending them .... "the best form of defence is attack" - Bush ... last week in a press conference.

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Could I go on a killing spree tomorrow and say 'look at me, I'm doing all this for you, I am your hero'?

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You're our hero no matter what you do Conor .... you are a living legend ... Hail Conor :D

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It's handy that he has made millions in everything he has done while many Muslims starve and object to what he is doing. It's a perverse form of patriotism.

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I know yeah .... he is very flush at the mo, the lastest sandles and cloaks, you can tell he is rolling in it. Parties every night of the week, the world is so unequally divided isn't it.

Conor .... I say dont believe everything you hear ..... i dont think he is in it for the money to be honest. And any monet there funds flying lessons for the boys.

Wasn't there something where he and his cousin we're not speaking with the family anymore and couldn't return to his home land. He did have some property alright but he had to leave that all behind at the start of the 90's for some reason as thing were getting a little hot for him.

Maybe his biscuit tins are over flowing alright but i dont think he has any off shore acc's to be honest, unless he is using a different name, Osama Bin Murphy perhaps.

I'd have my doubts really ..... about money being the motive anyway .... he cant help how rich his family are, even if he were talking to them.

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Originally Posted by Éanna

And I don't see why Europe should stay involved- its America's mess.

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Sorry, I just happened to be under the impression that the English, Russians and French had been involved in the development of the region for hundreds of years.
Clearly, I was wrong........