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Yes, it's that time of year again when everyone dusts off their words of Irish, but like the New Year's resolution, most of us run out of steam by Patrick's Day. I liked the language in school, but these days I'm one of those people put down on the Census that they can speak it, but almost never do. So are events like SnaG a waste of time, or will the Gaelscoileanna etc breathe new life into Irish ?
Seachtain na Gaeilge has never raised any more interest in the language in my experience. Those who know it, will speak it if they get the chance (as most would do all year round), those who don't know it still won't bother to learn it.
Imo, Irish should be discontinued as a compulsory subject in school. It'd be far better to focus those hours on international languages and PE. I don't see the point, apart from the historial and cultural day-dreaming, of making a regional, minority language compulsory learning for all students in this country. It'd be like teaching all Italians Sardó or teaching all Spaniards Galician.
Ciunas, bothar, cailin, bainne.
It would be criminal to let the language die. Most people in Malta speak Maltese, most in Catalunya speak Catalan. If we give up on our language, we're giving up such a massive part of the culture our ancestors fought so hard to create a country for.
Irish teaching needs to be reformed, sure. We spent so much time learning how to analyse poetry and literature instead of learning actual, *practical Irish. If we're going to ditch a subject, ditch English literature. I'm never going to use any of that stuff again.
Apart from the fact that we're terrible at languages, the Irish education system isn't so bad. You wouldn't believe some of the ignorance I encounter over here in the UK, something I attribute to the narrowness of their education system.
*preemptive defence on the practicality of Irish!
On a more serious note. I think it's a decent attempt to high light the language. I always make a decent attempt to speak it amongst friends. Is brea liom Gaeilge!
Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam.
I've never bought this.Quote:
Originally Posted by juan
Look at all those countries in the Americas. None of them speak their indigenous language but they all have strong national identities.
Imo, people who want to keep Irish going are just afraid of becoming more and more like the English. I respect the cultural attachment but we won't stop being Irish if we lose the language.
That's a very naive statement. Could it not be for the love of a language. I was born in England, I have lots of English family and the reason I speak Irish is because it is a great language. I know too Nigerian lads who learned it in school and can converse. I love being part of a minority who speaks the language well. Why should we let our language die?Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
To be fair, I think it's more intended as a rallying call than an intellectually unimpeachable statement. Similar, perhaps, to the way "You'll never beat the Irish" doesn't stand up to empirical analysis, but is a catchy way to express your support.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
You could say, "Harhar, you might think you can beat the Irish, cos many have, but we'll put up a decent battle all the same," - to similarly paraphrase tír gan teanga, "I think a vibrant native language is an enjoyable and worthwhile way to preserve some culture for future generations of a small, outward-looking English-speaking country in an era of increasing cultural homogeneity around the world".
Handier just to belt out the shorter ones and hope the audience will be convinced by the meaning behind them.
Wow. What a characterisation! Maybe 90 years ago that would've been more accurate. But I think our country is more (re)established and stable nowadays, such that the Irish-language movement isn't propelled by people fearful of becoming more like the English.Quote:
Imo, people who want to keep Irish going are just afraid of becoming more and more like the English.
I'll speak for myself to keep the discussion manageable. Certainly in my case, it's pure and simple enjoyment, with a splash of preservationist duty.
I enjoy watching TG4, I love Irish-language music, I like reading Irish-language articles, my favourite radio show is on RnaG, I love speaking Irish. Do I do those things because I'm afraid of being like an English person? No. Simply, I enjoy them. It's not a perverse enjoyment of "haha, ye feckin ethnic-cleansing, colonising British toffs, look at me now, dancing to my Kíla CD, reading Foinse and watching Seo Spóirt, we showed ye." No, it's a nice clean, natural feeling. I believe it's important that Irish is promoted so that others can have similar opportunities.
There was a conference last week in Galway exploring idea's to make it more popular.1 interesting thing seriously being considered is teaching History and Geography to Primary School kids through Irish.Other suggestions include more dual signage on roads etc plus duel labelling of Irish and English on grocery's.
I do not think the language should be allowed die.Its not a fear of becoming more English,its just a genuine fear of becoming less Irish,because thats what we are!
I don't have a problem with promoting the language through Seachtain na Gaeilge or TG4 (which I watch a lof ot) or RnaG.
My problem with Irish is that it is a compulsory subject for all Irish students. Like I said earlier, I don't think a regional, minority language should be compulsory learning for the entire population. I never said I wanted the Irish language to die or to have it's support removed. I think it should be up to the individual to decide whether they want to learn it and if they do, they have the support there to help them out. However, if they don't want to learn it, they shouldn't have it forced down their throats for 14 years. The fact that you need to pass Irish to pass your Leaving Cert is another joke of the Irish education system.
For instance, if a Spaniard living in Madrid has an interest in Galician or Catalan or Basque, they can learn it on their own. There's plenty of support mechanisms for the language, like language schools, language newspapers and television stations. I have no problem with having the same structures for Irish. However, not all Spaniards are interested in learning those languages and, luckily for them, not all of them have to learn it at school, only the ones living in those respective regions.
I went to all-Irish school for 14 years and, thankfully, I enjoyed it. However, the majority of my classmates didn't like it and loathed the fact that their parents sent them to all-Irish schools. Most of them have forgotten a lot of their Irish and some are quite bitter that they had to take so much on. And I can understand why. Unless you like the language, it's pointless to learn. It only offers opportunities in Ireland (a very small part of the country, at that). Outside of Ireland, it's utterly useless. Now, French or Spanish or Chinese, they're all useful outside of Ireland and they open up countless possibilities.
Of the people who went to school with me, I can think of about seven (out of 25) who have shown an active interest in the language (being involved in Irish language groups or studying Irish in college) since leaving school. I don't know a single one who has a job which requires fluent Irish. Of the people I know who went to English schools, the numbers are a lot lower.
From my experience, compulsory Irish hasn't helped the language: those who like it, will try and learn it. Those who don't have any interest, see it as a waste of time.
EDIT - I'll retract what I said about Irish people only wanting to preserve Irish to maintain another difference from the English.
I'm not sure you can compare the two. The people who don't speak the indigenous languages in the Americas are not the indigenous people. The indigenous peoples, huge numbers of 'native' tribes, still do speak their native languages and also have very weak national identities.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
As for the main point, I think that the main problem with Irish is that at the moment it is seen as a goal rather than a tool. People are made to study Irish so that they are able to speak Irish. For the most part, successful language learners see language as a tool (which helps their financial condition, for example) rather than a goal in itself. This leads to greater motivation as the question 'what's the point?' is rarely asked.
Superfrank, I accept your point on Irish in the educational system but in my opinion the problem with that is that it's being taught completely wrong. It's a language and should be treated as such, just like the French syllabus. The Irish syllabus should be heavily based on oral work. It's the only way to learn a language. It should not have literary works involved.
One of the main concerns I think you have, Superfrank, is the compulsory nature of Irish, and it is clear that you are a fan of the language yourself. I completely understand those concerns.
However, I do think that Irish should be taught to a certain level at least, whether it is examinable or not. Strangely enough, you seldom hear of people demanding an end to the teaching of religion in schools: granted it is necessary to do it for the exams, but it has been added in recent years as an exam subject - yet no outcry, even though it is surely more alienating in the society of modern Ireland. Irish, like any language is not something that creates a sectarian divide - religion, by strict definition, and general practice - in Ireland moreso than most places - is.
One of the major problems has to be the nature of the syllabus. Personally, I enjoyed and found the lit parts of it easier, but I know it should be toned down. The actual teaching of the grammar of the language starting in primary - unless it has changed from the Buntús - has to be revised; it has signally failed to promote the language in a positive light. It has been taught like a museum piece far too often, where is should be taught like the modern language that it is, still evolving, with people using it regularly, and as an advantage to gaining work. I am presuming that a number of civil service jobs still require it, which may have changed, but having Irish is an advantage working in TV in Ireland these days, for example - in these cases, it is not absolutely vital, but it is an advantage, which would be a sensible way to approach it.
The fact is that not only the use of Irish is eroded, but so too is Hiberno-English, the Irish dialect of English. Little phrases peculiar to Ireland are disappearing from the collective consciousness. Aside ever from this, it is also the case that the English language is being poorly taught / received: the standard of the oral and written language in the country has certainly been less than brilliant, though far better than in Britain. Neither of these things are mentioned much, the focus is on Irish - and there is a problem, one that won't be solved by any magic bullet solution - and other problems are brushed under the rug.
Seachas sin, is breá liom freisin an Gaeilge. Táim im chonaí i Londain anois, agus is fuath liom nárbh fhéidir le éinne cúpla focail a thuigeann. De réir sin, dár liom go bhfuil mo chuid gaeilge ag dul i laidgh, mar is eol díobh anois:o
Thankfully they're changing the secondary syllabus so that 40% of marks will be for the oral, but it's been proven that primary is the best time to teach a language, so like you've all said, time to cut down on grammar and aistí and concentrate on conversations. TG4 is excellent- Fíorscéal is one of the best documentary series in any language and GAA Beo will always get a good audience. I'd be hopeful about the language's future, but as with Maori and Hebrew, it'll be down to individual interest rather than official policies.
Simple stuff like that would be great. Stad instead of Stop. I remember seeing a few Géill Slí signs in Tipp years ago (don't know if they've been replaced since). Change town names (and associated signs) to the Irish when the difference between the Irish and the English is tiny (Seanchill v Shankill for example). Doesn't make things any less clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by eamo1
First off, I'm not sure you can classify a national language as a regional one; I'm not sure what your logic is here? Irish isn't just restricted to parts of the west coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
Secondly, I've always been of the opinion people of school going age are, to some extent, idiots who are influenced far too much by what is cool. People will drop Irish precisely as a form of protest. I know a fair few people of various ages (all long gone from school) who now say they wished they had more of the language. This could only become more common if you make Irish optional, and I don't see the point of that.
That said, I do think the curriculum needs an overhaul; the main reason I did pass Irish for the Leaving was because of the literature side of things (did pass English too).
I also think if you make Irish optional, why not make English and Maths optional? I've never analysed a work memo for literary merit, or used matrices to work out how much money I have in my account. It seems to me that if you make everything optional, you end up towards the English system, which many people seem to say is weaker, and less broad, than ours.
I have no great problem with Irish being a reqiured subject up to junior cert at least but I'd definitely like to see the way it's taught change. Primary school should be all about developing conversational Irish, that's the age at which it's easiest to learn a language, and the goal of learning any language is to be able to communicate orally using it. Junior cert Irish can start to introduce grammer and develop the written side, with examination being maybe 50-50 in terms of written and oral, with an emphasis placed on modern Irish, media, literature etc. After junior cert Irish literature should be an optional subject and would prove attractive for those who have learned the language in a practical manner and wish to expand their study of it.
I don't have much Irish myself, I hated it in school and scraped through hounours leaving cert, but I do think it would be a shame to let it die and it would be nice to see it more widely used. It's a nice language and a living part of our history.
I'd probably include cultural stuff like music and folklore in there as well, partly because I think it'd act as an extra hook at that age (using my opinion to extrapolate what everyone'd like, obviously), and partly because I think it's an underrated part of our culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
I'd go along with that, and there'd probably have to be a small amount of work around the written side too but the main goal should be sending 12 year olds to secondary school with good quality conversational Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't really think you can compare the situation in Spain with Ireland. 'Standard' Spanish, as we know it, is Castillian. Other languages like Galician or Catalan are specific to their region. Someone from Madrid would have little interest in learning them, as they wouldn't culturally associate themselves with those regions. Whereas here, I think it's fair to say we most Irish people associate the language with the culture of Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
Peadar, I don't buy that we're natually 'terrible' at languages. The problem with Irish (and all other languages taught in this country) is that we aren't teaching them the right way. Do what they do in other European countries, notably Netherlands and Scandanavia, teach subjects in another language. For instance, in Sweden you may get taught Maths solely in English. Having a few periods of a language a week isn't anywhere near enough to leave school with a competency in that language. My Irish is rubbish (though I'm starting a course on it next month). My French and German (which is studied for 5 years) are pretty poor too. It's pretty pointless doing 5 years of a language to come out the other end with very basic conversational skills.
The best example in Europe is, IMO, Luxembourg. They learn Luxembourgish as a first language at home, along with the first few years of primary school. German main is the language of primary school, French of secondary. In addition they get taught English in a subject or two, and maybe Spanish, Italian or Dutch along with that. The result is that virtually everyone in Luxembourg speaks 4 languages and they've the highest GDP in the world (I'll ignore Qatar and all it's oil).
It wouldn't be entirely difficult or expensive to implement here. I suspect the biggest problem would be getting enough teaching staff with knowledge of other languages (maybe we could ship some Luxembourgers in?).
For me it was simple - beaten into me at primary and then beaten out of me in secondary thanks to the brothers
But I would love to speak more Irish