Halifax Dead

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09/02/2010, 4:39 PM
dahamsta

Halifax Dead

750 jobs to go at Bank of Scotland Ireland

Happy Halifax customer here, for the most part. Left BOI because their customer service was diabolical, so it was a joy to deal with the pleasant, helpful people in Halifax, who more than made up for the inconvenience of their non-clearing status. Very disappointed that didn't didn't get the opportunity to compete because of the idiocy of the Irish banks, where blame for the job losses firmly rests. Now I'll have to go back to being treated like crap by incompetent, careless idiots.
09/02/2010, 5:20 PM
total hoofball

This is exactly what happens to competition in the banking sector when you provide state aid for bust de-facto nationalised zombie banks

If we think this is bad wait until BOI and AIB's redundancies later this year

but don't worry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Lenihan

Our plan is working.
We have turned the corner.
09/02/2010, 5:26 PM
thischarmingman

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

750 jobs to go at Bank of Scotland Ireland

Happy Halifax customer here, for the most part. Left BOI because their customer service was diabolical, so it was a joy to deal with the pleasant, helpful people in Halifax...

This.

I'm leaving Ireland in 13 days for 7 months with a Halifax visa card...
09/02/2010, 6:37 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by total hoofball

This is exactly what happens to competition in the banking sector when you provide state aid for bust de-facto nationalised zombie banks

If we think this is bad wait until BOI and AIB's redundancies later this year

but don't worry

Halifax as part of LBG are part of an even bigger bailout, but I agree about layoffs coming down the tracks at the legacy banks.

Once the first loans go over to NAMA the "gentlemans" agreement between covered banks, unions and government not to go down the involuntary redundancy route will go by the wayside. I expect the job losses will be staggering. The IBOA will be wondering why they invested so much energy in securing the last national wage agreement payment for their members.
09/02/2010, 7:29 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by total hoofball

This is exactly what happens to competition in the banking sector when you provide state aid for bust de-facto nationalised zombie banks

The UK and other foreign owned banks had their part to play in our problems too. Halifax/BOS were able to squeeze the life out of lending margins with the aid of their parent body, the competition this forced in turn helped to further overheat the housing market here. Currently all banks including BOI/AIB are giving deposit rates at huge losses to prevent them from fleeing to competitors with ridiculous negative margins, good for the consumer you may say but not good for the taxpayer.
09/02/2010, 8:39 PM
dahamsta

Actually if I had a problem with Halifax, it wouldn't be with their rates. They were about what the rates should have been in a competitive market, which was what they were supposed to be in Ireland to do. They were too lax with their lending requirements though, acting as a semi-subprime lender (emphasis important). When myself and the missus first went for a sniff around the mortgage market, on the downswing, Halifax were happy with 1 month worth of bank statements and payslips to make an initial judgement, when the Big Two were looking for 3, minimum. To be fair, the Big Two weren't doing it out of carefulness, but out of their usual arrogance and cockiness. However the correct level of due diligence was probably somewhere in the middle.

I wouldn't argue with the fact that Halifax and others had their part to play in the recession too, but I wouldn't peg them anywhere near the Big Two and the Ego Banks. They had to compete to differentiate themselves from what was seen as the norm in Ireland, and they did a damn good job of it. It was a matter of timing more than anything, and again, they weren't to blame there either, they couldn't possibly have entered the market earlier. What's worst about all of this is that they're unlikely to ever come back now. The big boys are probably ****ing themselves laughing. The slimey little sh*ts.
09/02/2010, 9:14 PM
Poor Student

Adam, it may sound counter intuitive but the Halifax approach to banking represents some of what's wrong with the sector. They've hollowed out the day to day bread and butter banking to set up a heavy loss making enterprise subsidised by a parent entity abroad. If a bank offers free banking, tight or loss making lending margins and loss making deposit margins then where is it going to make a profit?

You make a good point on the sub-prime lending. Funnily enough the cases that the big two weren't willing to fling money at the likes of Halifax/BOS would snap up which in turn inspired more aggressive lending. Superficially Halifax may have seemed good from a customer perspective but I feel they represented a model of business that was unsustainable and now that there's no trough to dip their snouts in they've ran away, Danske Banke have done something similar with NIB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Actually if I had a problem with Halifax, it wouldn't be with their rates. They were about what the rates should have been in a competitive market, which was what they were supposed to be in Ireland to do. They were too lax with their lending requirements though, acting as a semi-subprime lender (emphasis important). When myself and the missus first went for a sniff around the mortgage market, on the downswing, Halifax were happy with 1 month worth of bank statements and payslips to make an initial judgement, when the Big Two were looking for 3, minimum. To be fair, the Big Two weren't doing it out of carefulness, but out of their usual arrogance and cockiness. However the correct level of due diligence was probably somewhere in the middle.

I wouldn't argue with the fact that Halifax and others had their part to play in the recession too, but I wouldn't peg them anywhere near the Big Two and the Ego Banks. They had to compete to differentiate themselves from what was seen as the norm in Ireland, and they did a damn good job of it. It was a matter of timing more than anything, and again, they weren't to blame there either, they couldn't possibly have entered the market earlier. What's worst about all of this is that they're unlikely to ever come back now. The big boys are probably ****ing themselves laughing. The slimey little sh*ts.
09/02/2010, 11:00 PM
dahamsta

To be absolutely clear, I didn't say subprime, I said semi-subprime. I don't consider Halifax a subprime lender, we don't really have them in Ireland; unless you count the moneylenders. I should also point out that I don't know what Halifax's full requirements were, they seem to have a 3 stage mortgage approval process unlike the 2 stage process in other banks.

Anyway, I don't mean to be difficult, but I don't agree with you on the above. The Irish banks were absolutely creaming it during the boom, their profits were absolutely obscene, and that came from high margins and fees. Again, I believe Halifax's rates were competitive for a normal market. Us not having a normal market isn't their fault.

I'd hesitate to add that neither businesses nor consumers should be paying fees for anything to the banks. Fees are completely spurious for any bank that can manage investments.

Unfortunately we don't actually seem to have any of those in Ireland.

adam
10/02/2010, 7:14 AM
OneRedArmy

We certainly do have sub-prime lenders in Ireland. Start Mortgages, Springboard, and a few others (most closed to new business).

BoSI were welcome competition in Ireland, but let's not be rose-tinted about them. They ended up being a key part of the problem rather than a solution. They're ultimately no different than the legacy Irish banks and that's why the British Government forced the merger with Lloyds.
10/02/2010, 7:20 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The IBOA will be wondering why they invested so much energy in securing the last national wage agreement payment for their members.

Redundancy payments/ early retirements based on salary perhaps? If the job losses are inevitable, then they were more right to go after the increases, unless you're suggesting that not paying them would've made any difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I don't consider Halifax a subprime lender, we don't really have them in Ireland; unless you count the moneylenders

I thought there was a few - I can't think of them off the top of my head, but we have the same day time tele ads about "consolidating loans" and "been refused a mortgage". As far as I was aware, most of the repossessions so far have come from this type of company.
10/02/2010, 9:34 AM
OneRedArmy

Just in case anyone is anyone doubt of how much of a basket case BoSI were from a prudential risk perspective, they had a loan to deposit ratio of 486% at the end of 2008.

What they did bring to Ireland, as you've pointed out Adam, was a fantastic improvement in customer service. Open Saturday and longer opening hours during the week and generally a sense of customer service befitting the 20th Century. Its a shame to lose that as customer service in the legacy banks is an oxymoron.
10/02/2010, 5:41 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Anyway, I don't mean to be difficult, but I don't agree with you on the above. The Irish banks were absolutely creaming it during the boom, their profits were absolutely obscene, and that came from high margins and fees. Again, I believe Halifax's rates were competitive for a normal market. Us not having a normal market isn't their fault.

I'd hesitate to add that neither businesses nor consumers should be paying fees for anything to the banks. Fees are completely spurious for any bank that can manage investments.

The core business of the legacy banks, as ORA is calling them, is the day to day banking, money transmissions and the like. In fact, go back far enough and banks didn't even do mortgages, it was mainly the building societies. The banks took their eye off the ball and neglected the core business in favour of more and more lending as the business was just walking in the door. Now as lending has dried up revenue streams are diminishing as the bread and butter stuff has gone ignored. British parent banks have had to plough over �4bn pounds into recapitalising their Irish subsidiaries, don't doubt that the cheap capital they injected into our market hasn't lent to its over heating and distortion. Obviously our own domestic banks played the significant part in this whole disaster and I do not mean to gloss over that but I don't think we should ignore the role of the other banks either.
10/02/2010, 6:07 PM
dahamsta

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

We certainly do have sub-prime lenders in Ireland. Start Mortgages, Springboard, and a few others (most closed to new business).

Never heard of 'em, thank god. How many mortgages did they sell?

Quote:

BoSI were welcome competition in Ireland, but let's not be rose-tinted about them. They ended up being a key part of the problem rather than a solution.

Again, I disagree. They were certainly part of the problem, but they were by no means a key part of it. The big banks and the egobanks hold most of the responsibility. Even the developers and the goverment have more responsibility than the smaller banks and the borrowers.

Quote:

They're ultimately no different than the legacy Irish banks

I disagree with that too, but even setting their admittedly dodgy loan book aside, they differed immensely in the way they dealt with the public. It's just a pity that Irish people are too stupid to recognise that if they want respect from a service provider, they need to pay a little more.

EDIT: Just to be absolutely clear (since I obviously didn't achieve that with post #6), I'm not holding Halifax up as some kind of knight in shining armour that came to Ireland to save the downtrodden consumers. However there's a certain element of Denis O'Brien and mobile phone licences here: the way they behaved, while better than the other banks, wasn't "right". However it is the way, very sadly, things are done in Ireland. We've moved on a bit from the blatant bribes, but only a bit.
11/02/2010, 5:04 PM
Longfordian

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Never heard of 'em, thank god. How many mortgages did they sell?

Hundreds of thousands I'd say between them. Came across a fair few at the height of the boom and where I worked at the time wouldn't have been a busy firm of solicitors certainly as regards the property end of things. Usually in my experience they sold to single people struggling to get offers from the banks. Unsurprisingly they're the first ones to start recovery proceeedings.
12/02/2010, 10:19 AM
Reality Bites

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

750 jobs to go at Bank of Scotland Ireland

Happy Halifax customer here, for the most part. Left BOI because their customer service was diabolical, so it was a joy to deal with the pleasant, helpful people in Halifax, who more than made up for the inconvenience of their non-clearing status. Very disappointed that didn't didn't get the opportunity to compete because of the idiocy of the Irish banks, where blame for the job losses firmly rests. Now I'll have to go back to being treated like crap by incompetent, careless idiots.

Very sad to hear you will have the gross discomfort of dealing with a different bank, but I would suggest this incovenience pales in comparison with the Halifax employees who have lost their Jobs!
12/02/2010, 12:59 PM
Mr A

Indeed. And their inconvenience pales compared to that of people with ebola.

His point is that it's particularly bad to see a bank with an ethos of good customer service leaving the market. What's your point caller?
12/02/2010, 5:20 PM
dahamsta

You got there before me, except I was going to use Haiti as a comparison.
12/02/2010, 5:51 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Very sad to hear you will have the gross discomfort of dealing with a different bank, but I would suggest this incovenience pales in comparison with the Halifax employees who have lost their Jobs!

I thought all bankers were tossers!?!?

Jeez, at least be consistent is hating us, its more predictable that way.