Compensation

Following on from the very interesting views posted on the "Fenlon to Dundee Utd" thread, I thought I'd canvas for the views regarding what is fair compensation for Irish (LoI) players and managers moving across the water while in contract to LoI clubs.

From reading the other thread it would seem that there are a fair few posters on this board that would be happy for our clubs to take it up the arsé as it were and that in the instance of that 'deal' Bohs should have acceded to the 'bigger club' in Scotland and let Fenlon move for a fee which was reported to be half of what the request was for.

That however this is not my view at all. Down through the years a huge amount of players have moved across the Irish Sea for little or sweet f.a. leaving clubs over here without reasonable transfers. Not only that but recently enough a sell on clause for Kevin Doyle was 'bought out' for pittance just months before Doyle was sold on for €7m.

I think that Bohs were right to stick by there guns, notwithstanding Fenlons ambitions and that if Dundee United or any other clubs from the UK want our people in future then they can pay us what they're worth.

Someone said to me that there is more chance of Fenlon being a success at Dundee Utd than there is of the guy he was to replace has of success with Scotland. Dundee Utd know that and Bohs know that. So I agree with you that Bohs were right to stick by there guns.

The standard is, and should at least, be: value of contract (so if a manager is on €2,000 a month and has 8 months left it's €16,000). This should be the minimum. However a club should be allowed to factor in the cost of hiring a new manager and leave clauses in related to the managers performances (if he gets his new club into Europe then the club should get a proportion of the initial payment - say €20,000). Bohs were right to ask for a bigger amount, and many clubs want cash up front, but sometimes it's better to add in clauses that end up making more.

For players it's way more complicated, but a minimum must again be his contract, plus time served with club and a sell on clause.

I agree with Charles Thompson. People are always going on about the league not improving at whatnot. The reason its not improving is because too many times our LOI clubs have been taking to the cleaners on players. Even in our instance with Daryl Murphy. He was sold as a player with big potential at what is pittence to Sunderland (100k) ok granted a nice sum for us but he's gone crap, hasn't played a lot yet now he's suddenly worth 1.5m?? Wheres the logic.

We should be aiming to keep these players in this country. All this fudge of ahh he's only playing in the LOI so he'll get spotted in England is dreadful. Clubs should take a stand and not let the players go anywhere. It's these massive egos that we have playing in our league that are ruining the league. Larger then life most of them seem to think they are who take our clubs for a ride.

The LOI clubs need to take a stand against the player and managers for that fact and offer them basic wages. I can gaurentee they won't be long about accepting them if all the clubs do it. And then when English/Scottish clubs come knocking set an asking price based on wages, years on contract, term at club, club importance. I mean Kevin Doyle cost 250K from Cork City and had one good season with Reading in the premiership. Now he's worth 10M? Wheres the justice in that?

To sum up this rant. Weldone Bohs and weldone Gerry Conway about time somebody stood up to these "BIGGER" club.

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Originally Posted by **FrOsTy**

Weldone Bohs and weldone Gerry Conway about time somebody stood up to these "BIGGER" club.

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And for Bohs sake I hope they dont end up with nothing, ie no compensation and no manager.


Personally I feel they should have taken the offer as they are not gong to get more and surely Fenlons postition at Bohs is untenable after he has made it so clear he doesnt want to be there,

Going back to the original question is there a standard method of calculating compensation and if so can anyone post a link or examples please.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

And for Bohs sake I hope they dont end up with nothing, ie no compensation and no manager.


Personally I feel they should have taken the offer as they are not gong to get more and surely Fenlons postition at Bohs is untenable after he has made it so clear he doesnt want to be there,

Going back to the original question is there a standard method of calculating compensation and if so can anyone post a link or examples please.

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Michael O'Neill should do his old club a favour & give them a call. Let them know its okay not to pay full amount on Nutsy's contract. Tell them Bohs should greatful to get an offer of 4%

should have taken the arm of them - he'll have as much success as he did with derry !

but i agree that clubs here r disrespected by UK clubs when it comes to transfers etc

PAT THE RAT !

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Originally Posted by **FrOsTy**

... Clubs should take a stand and not let the players go anywhere...

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We had that once. It was called "slavery".

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Originally Posted by GM11

but i agree that clubs here r disrespected by UK clubs when it comes to transfers etc

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We're not disrespected by UK clubs at all. They, like any business, want to get a commodity for the best price possible. It's not their fault that the selling LOI club is generally in a financial black hole and has to sell to pay the bills / players. If the LOI club is financially healthy and doesn't need desperately cash in 5 minutes time, then they'll be able to get a better price. Either that or the LOI club are so inept at negotiation or putting a value on their own player that he leaves on the cheap.

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Originally Posted by Mark

Someone said to me that there is more chance of Fenlon being a success at Dundee Utd than there is of the guy he was to replace has of success with Scotland. Dundee Utd know that and Bohs know that. So I agree with you that Bohs were right to stick by there guns.

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That has got to be the worst thought out logic I have ever seen.

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Originally Posted by John83

We had that once. It was called "slavery".

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Now you just sound like Sept Blatter:D

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

Going back to the original question is there a standard method of calculating compensation and if so can anyone post a link or examples please.

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There is no hard and fast rule outside of using the remaining contract as a guideline. However one thing always comes into play - how much you value the commodity. A good friend and former colleague of mine was working with a club in Germany. He told me that each time they had a bad run and goals weren't coming, he'd field a bunch of calls offering sure fire strikers without a contract. They never jumped at it but occasionally took a guy on trial and gave him a once over.

I do know that under tribunal rules, for a senior player who hasn't been developed by a certain club, there are a number of quantifiables brought in, including previous injuries, number of appearances per season, salary (new and old) and international status. The international status (if they've won caps etc - over the age of 21) is graded according to nations ranking, so that caps for Spain mean more than Bermuda and so on.

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Originally Posted by weecountyman

There is no hard and fast rule outside of using the remaining contract as a guideline. However one thing always comes into play - how much you value the commodity. A good friend and former colleague of mine was working with a club in Germany. He told me that each time they had a bad run and goals weren't coming, he'd field a bunch of calls offering sure fire strikers without a contract. They never jumped at it but occasionally took a guy on trial and gave him a once over.

I do know that under tribunal rules, for a senior player who hasn't been developed by a certain club, there are a number of quantifiables brought in, including previous injuries, number of appearances per season, salary (new and old) and international status. The international status (if they've won caps etc - over the age of 21) is graded according to nations ranking, so that caps for Spain mean more than Bermuda and so on.

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There are guidlines for players all right, its for Managers I was enquiring about as per the thread.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

There are guidlines for players all right, its for Managers I was enquiring about as per the thread.

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Sorry :o

For managers it's normally length of contract and the possibility of prizemoney loss. Also the cost of having to search and hire a new man in. The money Bohs were looking for was par for the course. He was leaving a full-time contract on (I guess) good wages with a number of years left and with the prospect of European money. Bohs could at least look for his remaining salary, plus the guaranteed payment from UEFA (€80,000 I think) plus a performance related bonus for Pat in Scotland, or a friendly where they'd keep the receipts or a free training camp in Dundee. It'd all add up to around €300,000, on a paper estimate.

Not sure it's a simple formula. I have no firm information but lets look at Owen Coyle going to Bolton. Think he had a year and a half to run so at 500k a year that works out at about 750K left on the contract. Survival in the EPL is estimated to be worth about 10m yet Bolton paid Burnley £2m in compo, from press reports.

Personally I think one years salary for the manger plus the lead in time for settling as a manager (difficult to quantify) is sufficeint and if Fenlon was on 100k I would say 100 - 150k was a fair amount or put simply about 1.5 times salary inc potental bonuses.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

We're not disrespected by UK clubs at all. They, like any business, want to get a commodity for the best price possible. It's not their fault that the selling LOI club is generally in a financial black hole and has to sell to pay the bills / players. If the LOI club is financially healthy and doesn't need desperately cash in 5 minutes time, then they'll be able to get a better price. Either that or the LOI club are so inept at negotiation or putting a value on their own player that he leaves on the cheap.

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Very good assessment and pretty much what happened, Dundee Utd sought to get Fenlon at as low a cost as possible (simple business practice) and Bohs valued him higher than DU were willing to pay. Hence no agreement and a breakdown in talks.
Personally I think Bohs handled themselves well (unless it comes back to bite them on the ass). And apart from a few deluded shams I think most LOI fans will be glad to see Bohs stand their ground as some of the DU behaviour was less than professional.
The attitude of some in the media here was disappointing, almost encouraging Nutsey to break contract to go to DU - would love to see them suggesting an English Prem manager should "walk" if wanted by Madrid/ Barca or some similar "bigger club". Rubbish article by Eamon Dummy in the STAR pretty much sums this approach up.
Incidentially I would hope that if DU end up approaching MON that Shams would show similar steel in getting as much as possible for his services.

I agree, about time a club stood up for itself and, by extension, the League and said 'no, offer us a decent package or go away'

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Originally Posted by BYCTWD

There is a difference between 'standing your ground' and what Bohs did though. Long and short of it, Dundee United decided they couldn't even negotiate with the representitives of Bohs who had played hardball with a manager who at the time was out of contract. Only a stroke in paying Fenlon in full on the sly kept him there (for now). So you are now stuck with a manager who doesn't want to be there at a cost of €100,000 and questions at just the wrong time about where this amount owed was in the accounts.

Right approach, comically executed.

I can assure you that if DU approach Rovers for MON, it will be dealt with in the exact opposite manner to Gerry Conway's insistance on having it out in the press.

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So you have spoken to representatives of Dundee and to Pat Fenlon to find this out? Bohs didn't get offered what they wanted so turned it down fair play to them why should they accept what they don't find acceptable.

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Originally Posted by BYCTWD

Because the amount they held out for here was entirely at odds with the situation they found themselves in and has left Nutsy clearly fuming about their approcach.

Like I say, Bohs were right to try and get the best deal for their club, but if they wanted to keep Fenlon they should have simply said 'not for sale' rather than string DU and Fenlon along with a pointless negotiation. That was amateur night from Comical Gerry.

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tere is no player or manager in the world that is 'not for sale' every man has their price bohs simply stated as much.

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Originally Posted by BYCTWD

Yes, and then asked for more for an out of contract manager than Scotland paid for Levine.

If Nutsy was such an asset, why did they only decide to pay him what he was owed in bonuses when they realised he was leaving?

I repeat, right stance, comical execution.

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Nutsy verbally agreed to a deferal, thus the essential terms of his contract were changed and a new contract came into being.

Nutsy sought legal advise and was told the same thing.

But dont let the facts get in the way of you attacking Bohs :rolleyes: