Irish abortion law challenged in European court

From the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8403013.stm

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The Irish Republic's strict abortion law is being challenged in the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

The legal action has been brought by three Irish women who say the effective ban on abortion in Ireland violates the European Convention on Human Rights.

All three have travelled to Britain to have abortions.

The Irish government has engaged two leading lawyers to argue its case that the country has a sovereign right to protect the life of the unborn.

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Does anybody know how solid the footing of the Irish govt position will be in this case?

The three women's argument is apparently :

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They argue that being forced to travel abroad for abortions endangered their "health and well-being" as safeguarded by the European Convention on Human Rights.

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I have no legal insight to this, but that doesn't sound like the strongest case to me.

I just caught the AG on RTE News, burst my hole laughing when he said our abortion laws had been arrived at in a "wholly democratic" way. Holy democratic more like!

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Originally Posted by osarusan

From the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8403013.stm



Does anybody know how solid the footing of the Irish govt position will be in this case?

The three women's argument is apparently :

I have no legal insight to this, but that doesn't sound like the strongest case to me.

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http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/breaking...t-1966020.html

I think the point they are arguing on is developed a little better here,

"As doctors, we're concerned at the needless burden of additional risk caused by treatment delays. You don't have to be medically qualified to understand that the Irish abortion ban risks women's physical health, requires abortions to be performed later than necessary, and creates serious emotional upset for women at an already stressful time."

I am not an expert but is abortion allowed in Ireland where medically necessary ie the womans life is in danger? I think I read somewhere that it is.

If it is down to a case of choice to travel to the UK with no unusual health risks attached to the pregnancy I would think they dont have a case. It would be different if they were forced to do it for medical reasons.

Is travelling to the UK however many months into pregnancy more stressful to the woman and foetus than working up to within a few weeks of the birth which alot of women do.

I have no real opinion on this either way - I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose - but was curious how the three woman paid for this to reach court? Who is funding them?

It's not so much the procedure that is the problem it's the fact that Irish women can't see their own doctors either before or after the operation about it that is the problem. All an Irish doctor can do beforehand is recommend a competent doctor in the UK for the women to go get checked out in and after the procedure itself she can't even be checked for complications arising from the abortion unless she returns to the UK or is in a bad way (emergency services basically)

It's nonsense that we've become so secular and yet still leave this rubbish law in place in place to be fair

Also this type of thing is one of the reasons why I voted Yes to Lisbon, so the European Courts could overturn some of our more nonsensical laws

I think there were underlying medical threats in two of the cases, and another issue in the other. I hope they succeed too, for the reasons above and also because it will send the Youth Defence/ Coir/ Libertas/ Iona freaks mental.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose

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I think that's the opinion of most pro-choice people. It's telling that most of the ardent anti-choice people you meet tend to be men...

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I have no real opinion on this either way - I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose - but was curious how the three woman paid for this to reach court? Who is funding them?

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Was also wondering who is funding this. Am glad its happening and even if they are unsuccessful maybe it will put it back on the agenda for another referendum soon and now that the country is more mature there may be a chance of it being passed.

I think it is awful that women feel like they have no choices and are pretty much forced to have children they dont want. The real crime is bringing life to someone you dont want, as you will never give it the love and care it deserves so its better to get rid of it.

The cost of going to England to have an abortion is scary. I know if I needed one I would never be able to afford it and would be stuck bringing up a child that would ruin my life to a certain extent. Selfish I know, but I have already contributed to the worlds population and wouldnt like to burden it with any more.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

Was also wondering who is funding this. Am glad its happening and even if they are unsuccessful maybe it will put it back on the agenda for another referendum soon and now that the country is more mature there may be a chance of it being passed.
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Could you trust FF to not make a sham of a referendum like the last two previous occasions?

As another poster pointed out - I would nearly love if abortion came in just to pee of the Christian right et al. Will never forget that idiot Mildred Fox supporting the government as long as she got her abortion referendum etc. never mind the suffering we have to endure under FF - but think of the unborn:mad:

I know, just hoping that by the time it comes into being that there is a FG/Labour government.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

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I think it is awful that women feel like they have no choices and are pretty much forced to have children they dont want. The real crime is bringing life to someone you dont want, as you will never give it the love and care it deserves so its better to get rid of it.

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Have you ever heard of adoption?

These people on the block I grew up on, they adopted 2 babies from Ireland. Lovely hard working folks. Couldnt have kids. They are around 7 now, healthy happy boys, when I visit my parents I see them running around like crazy laughing and playing baseball.
Surely no one would propose that they should have been aborted due to having no options!

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Surely no one would propose that they should have been aborted due to having no options!

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Not your or mine's right to say what a woman should do with their body and their mental state.

I wouldn't worry anyway - whats been going on in Listowel is proof enough that we haven't moved on that much as a society, misogyny is alive and well, and any amendement wouldn't be passed.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Not your or mine's right to say what a woman should do with their body and their mental state.

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'Not your or mine's right to say that a woman should can't have their children killed up to a particular age.'

Macy, there's a kind of childish abortion debate which I really detest: black and white statements that deny there any room for debate. It ****es people off and is tantamount to trolling. Cop on.

Another issue with debates on this topic is that people get too emotive. Both of you cop on please.

Trolling wasn't my intention, and I personally think saying it's a womans right to choose is a reasonable statement to make in an abortion thread, especially when there's an attempt to make it about specific adopted children.

It was late, so I was lazy, but I'll add at this stage that having abortion legislation won't effect adoptions. If a woman really wants an abortion she will have one and updating our laws is about safety of women - giving them the post procedure care, taking care of them metally, giving the true range of options so they can make an informed decision.

It's an emotive issue and one I've always struggled with. I always consider myself very liberal, I'm an athiest and my politics are always a little left of centre but abortion is one thing that I can't come to terms with.
I think there are exceptions where a woman has been raped or is likely to encounter health problems or in some cases where the child is likely to be born with a handicap be it mental or physical.
For the most part though I would rather see a healthy child being born and given up for adoption, that too is not an easy route, from family experiences I know some of the trauma involved in giving a child up for adoption.
For the most part I agree with it being the womans right to choose but I would hate to see us become like the US where abortion is basically a form of contraception. The solution needs to give more information to women, it needs to give a real list of alternatives and solutions. It also needs to ensure that abortion clinics are tightly regulated and this is where I have my concerns because I don't think we're very competent at regulation.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

abortion is one thing that I can't come to terms with.
I think there are exceptions where a woman has been raped or is likely to encounter health problems or in some cases where the child is likely to be born with a handicap be it mental or physical.

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Have to say I'm a bit surprised at the general view on the thread; this is the view I'd agree with. I'm not an expert on our abortion law, but from what I know, I think it's spot on. That's probably borne of a mindset where I hate this idea that modern society seems to urge complete derogation of responsibility on anything.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Have to say I'm a bit surprised at the general view on the thread; this is the view I'd agree with. I'm not an expert on our abortion law, but from what I know, I think it's spot on.

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But our current law doesn't allow for the cases you say you agree with outlined by endabob, so how is the law spot on?

It is on health consequences of the mother that at least one of the three women is taking the case that sparked this thread.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

For the most part I agree with it being the womans right to choose but I would hate to see us become like the US where abortion is basically a form of contraception. The solution needs to give more information to women, it needs to give a real list of alternatives and solutions. It also needs to ensure that abortion clinics are tightly regulated and this is where I have my concerns because I don't think we're very competent at regulation.

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Sorry Endabob, but I think you are being a little bit OTT on this.

Firstly, I suspect that little more than a few clichés of little existence outside of the right-facing scandal rags consider abortion as some kind of contraception. Abortion is one of the most heart-wrenching things that anyone can face - you are cutting some part of yourself off, even if it is something that you do not consider part of yourself.

Secondly, the US has a huge issue with Abortion - I note that a huge factor in the dynamics of selection of US Supreme Court judges is tied up to the Roe v Wade (1973) right to abortion case. The panel is balanced very finely in favour of maintaining the status quo at the moment, and it was one of the chief concerns for many on Bush's election, that he would tilt this - and by "God", he wanted to. Even in LA, notorious cesspool of moral decreptiude, abortion clinics are few in number and it is both expensive and difficult to coordinate it. In some other states, they "provide" it, but more in name than action. Abortion clinics are even bombed in some states. Britain and France would be an easier target to hit.

Thirdly, I have a friend who is working in an abortion clinic just outside London. A fun job, as you would imagine. She cannot get over the number of Irish rolling up to it, which obviously is going to cost a small fortune to get to. However, once you get there, it is really easy to have your contraceptive abortion, as you only have a few dozen protesters to get past, and then it is a simple re-iteration of the potential harm to yourself, physically and psychologically. Then there is the operation. Apparently the Irish tend to take the local anaesthetic rather than the general, as they are sometimes alone, and have to fly back that night.

She also tells a tale of a girl (not Irish) who was sent to the clinic by her older married boyfriend to have an abortion that she clearly did not want. She was illiterate and had to have the forms read to her before she could sign them. Indeed, she had to have him come and pick her up.

The Irish issue is a special one, and if you want a reason why it should be available here, you should ask a friend of mine. She had a kid at the age of 17, having discovered she was preganant unexpectedly. By choice she had it - she didn't really know what options were open to her. She tell a tale of a friend of her's who, at a similarly young age, discovered she was pregnant, knew that keep it or sent it off, she'd be kicked out of the house (in holy compassionate Catholic Ireland of the time) and shunned in the community, shunned by the boy and all, knew she'd never afford to raise a kid either , never mind take the trip over to Liverpool, knew that she didn't want an abortion, but knew she'd no choice. No choice but to contact some of her better friends who would get her a bottle of vodka between them, get her good and drunk, two of them hold on to her, and the strongest of them kick her hard in the stomach to induce a miscarriage. It worked. Whether she will ever be able to have children is another story.

Again it is not always clear cut black & white as to whether there is a risk to a mother, some risks are not evident until the birth itself or the trauma may not actually hit until the child is born. I dont think there is anything wrong with choosing to have a child or not, contraception is a form of abortion to a certain extent so dont see why there is a problem.

Also on adoptions, do we really need more kids in the world sitting in homes waiting to be adopted? The rigourous methods of selecting suitable adoptees (and it should be stringent) means that often there are not enough people allowed to adopt and kids are left in the state system. This is not fair either. Then you have an adopted kid growing up wondering about its natural parents and possibly feeling rejected for its entire life.

If you dont want a kid you have the options of : abstinence, contraception or abortion. Anything other than that is unfair. In my opinion of course, and I respect all others.

As I've gotten older I've become much more liberal in my views on abortion, when I was younger I'd always throw out the "there's always adoption" card but not I can see the flaws in that argument. I have reservations about it still but I'd prefer to live in a society that protects the health of women who make an informed choice to have an abortion than one that drives them to other countries and refuses any aftercare or responsibility. Psychological assessment and information on all alternatives would need to be provided to all those seeking abortions and only once this has been cleared should it proceed.