Central Academy

I put this in another thread as a sort of half-formed idea, but I've thought about it a little, and decided to put it in a thread of its own:

It's clear our league would be a lot stronger if the top talent didn't go and play in England and either stay there, or get disillusioned with football, and quit the game entirely when they didn't make it.

However, despite the risk involved, kids still think it's worthwhile going over to the UK for their chance at the Big Time, the best academies are in the UK, and if they don't go over at a young age, they could never get picked up, regardless of their ability.

My solution to this would be a central FAI Youth Academy. The academy would have branches in the major population centres, and an extensive scouting network all around the country. The coaches would be world-class and internationally recognised. Kids would train with their local academy, and would be centrally contracted. LOI clubs could then apply to loan the players from their nearest academy, and it would be up to the coaches to decide whether first-team football would benefit the players.

The academy could contract players until they were 21, say. If an English club wants to come in for a player, the academy should have enough financial clout, and reputation, to negotiate a fair price. Ideally, the academy could be self-funded through player sales.

Okay, so the best players are still going to end up going to England. The EPL has more money, and almost certainly always will. However, the players who remain will have academy training, and the experience of playing under top coaches, and alongside the best players of their generation, which, let's face it, isn't exactly happening under the current system. Hopefully the ties with local clubs will encourage them to join their nearest LOI club if they haven't been bought by a foreign side, which should ensure an influx of talented players into the league, benefitting the domestic game and the international side, not to mention the benefits for the kids who join having the opportunity to get world class academy coaching without disrupting their education or home life.

Any thoughts? Apologies if I've inadvertently stolen this idea from someone else!

i have had the same ideas in the past. Biggest problem would appear to be the junior clubs and how they fit into the equation...

Theyre a bit dated now but the same principles apply - feel free to check out my plans!! First and last post are probably the most applicable...

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=17

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=19

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=76

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...&postcount=117

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...&postcount=138[/QUOTE]

Good posts! Looks like my idea wasn't as original as I'd thought it was!

I think if there was a central national academy a lot of the junior clubs would unfortunately have to be sacrificed. That pains me as a supporter of a club who rely heavily on getting a year or two out of youngsters before selling them on, but I don't think the current system is working well enough to preserve for sentimentality's sake. Of course some system would have to be there for kids not good enough for the academy though.

The other problem with any sort of public money going into football is that the GAA would have a collective fit about "other codes", although it does look as though they're getting more enlightened in recent years

the fai already run regional emerging talent programmes. they run for the best players in each region from 14-17 years old. i think they should go on longer but they are well run and the players do get good coaching and play with the best players in their region. however, it doesn't do anything to stop players going to england but it it is now easier for players from the west and north of ireland to get international recognition with these programmes.
they are in castlebar, athlone, a few in dublin, ennis and donegal to name but a few.

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Originally Posted by hoop4life

the fai already run regional emerging talent programmes. they run for the best players in each region from 14-17 years old. i think they should go on longer but they are well run and the players do get good coaching and play with the best players in their region. however, it doesn't do anything to stop players going to england but it it is now easier for players from the west and north of ireland to get international recognition with these programmes.
they are in castlebar, athlone, a few in dublin, ennis and donegal to name but a few.

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It always amazes me how many people who appear to have an interest in Irish soccer are so unaware of the work being done by local clubs at underage level all over the country and the Emerging Talent Programmes referred to by hoop4life that are being run all over the country by the FAI and which actually begin with kids of 11 years of age. Theses programmes are still very much in their infancy and are by no means perfected but it is the aim of the programmes to identify the top talent from all over the country at as young an age as possible and provide them with top level coaching in a national training centre in Dublin and all of this is done in conjunction with the various Schoolboys Leagues around the country and this is the only way to advance player development in this country. What is probably needed is a bit more input from the Senior clubs.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

although it does look as though they're getting more enlightened in recent years

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:rolleyes:

They really aren't. Tallaght and then digging up that pitch in Kerry is hardly the sign of an enlightened organisation

All this talk of coaching and talent is fine, and I am 100 per cent behind the idea, but are we sure we can get top class foreign coaches?

My idea would be getting in someone from Holland or one of the top South American countries as they have such a great record in grooming kids. But if we are to rely on English or Irish coaches - and there are one or two exceptions of course - we are dead in the water. You only have to look at the lack of technical ability among the Irish and English youngsters to see that.

mark12345

As far as I know, the FAI will be creating a youth academy. Aparently it will be based in Abbotstown, quite similar to Clairefontaine in France. It might be up and running in the next few years, could be promising.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

My idea would be getting in someone from Holland or one of the top South American countries as they have such a great record in grooming kids.

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Sure we've plenty of Priests here ;)


(Anticipates a banning/backlash)

Nothing to do really with this discussion but schoolboy football really needs to get away from the kind of viscous element that exists in it. when i moved to dublin i played for many teams underrage from Home Farm to Shelbourne and some coaches seemed to think they were the next alex ferguson or something. Shelbourne youth system in 2000 was the biggest joke i ever seen tbh, some good people at the club but man some gob****es as well. i mean do they convince themselves they are 'under pressure for results'?:rolleyes:

i don't know if its human nature or what, maby we have some stereotypical view that in the netherlands kids can just play free where the sense of competiveness isn't instilled in them but like its natural to want to win so i'd have to see it for myself.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

All this talk of coaching and talent is fine, and I am 100 per cent behind the idea, but are we sure we can get top class foreign coaches?

My idea would be getting in someone from Holland or one of the top South American countries as they have such a great record in grooming kids. But if we are to rely on English or Irish coaches - and there are one or two exceptions of course - we are dead in the water. You only have to look at the lack of technical ability among the Irish and English youngsters to see that.

mark12345

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Sorry but I totally disagree and again these would appear to be comments from someone who is not familiar with what is going on in schoolboys leagues around the country. The regional development officers employed by the FAI and who are co-ordinating the Emerging Talent Programmes around the country are highly qualified and every bit as good as foreign coaches and their coaching methods these days are totally focused on improving technique in young players. Things have moved on enormously in the last five years or so, but of course still a long way to go, especially in relation to facilities.

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Originally Posted by Redie

Sorry but I totally disagree and again these would appear to be comments from someone who is not familiar with what is going on in schoolboys leagues around the country. The regional development officers employed by the FAI and who are co-ordinating the Emerging Talent Programmes around the country are highly qualified and every bit as good as foreign coaches and their coaching methods these days are totally focused on improving technique in young players. Things have moved on enormously in the last five years or so, but of course still a long way to go, especially in relation to facilities.

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totally agree with that.
i have seen and talked to players in those programmes and a lot of what they do is geared towards technical ability and passing the ball on the ground. they're is still a long way to go but the fai is going in the right direction.

Agree that the FAI is going in the right direction with the Emerging Talent squads and great to hear about the plans for the Academy in Abbotstown, but still I reckon it will take one or two players to make it "big" through these academys before kids choose them ahead of going across the water to England.

Just a question though, do youse who know the score with the emerging talent squads think that the scouts pick up the best players from the area to come to these?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

All this talk of coaching and talent is fine, and I am 100 per cent behind the idea, but are we sure we can get top class foreign coaches?

My idea would be getting in someone from Holland or one of the top South American countries as they have such a great record in grooming kids. But if we are to rely on English or Irish coaches - and there are one or two exceptions of course - we are dead in the water. You only have to look at the lack of technical ability among the Irish and English youngsters to see that.

mark12345

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IS THIS DUTCH ENOUGH FOR YOU?

Wim Koevermans: FAI's new performance guru faces an uphill struggle
The Independent (Ireland)
Monday 14 July 2008
If he wants a challenge, Wim Koevermans is in the right place, writes John O'Brien BACK a few years ago in the colourful times before and after the 2002 World Cup, John Delaney, then FAI honorary treasurer, made the solemn vow that he would resign his position if the recommendations of the much-discussed Genesis report weren't implemented within 12 months.
One of the key proposals was the appointment of an International Performance Director and six years on a smiling Delaney was again sitting at the top table with a smiling Dutchman by the name of Wim Koevermans by his side. Better late than never.
Maybe in three years, if the newly-revamped Lansdowne Road hasn't gobbled up all the funds, the 48-year-old will be able to look out the window of his Abbotstown office and observe the grass and all-weather pitches of the national academy the FAI propose to build there. And then people could come to the castle, as Koevermans joked during his unveiling on Friday morning.
It was low-key fare, a sleepy mid-week spring friendly against moderate opposition as opposed to the thunderous, do-or-die November play-off in a Roman coliseum that was the coronation of Giovanni Trapattoni in May. But that didn't mean it lacked significance or was unworthy of attention. Another piece was added to the muddled jigsaw that is Irish football, the overall picture that bit more complete now.
In appearance, Koevermans seems every inch the prototype you would imagine for such a role, sporting a youthful face unmarked by the artery-tightening stress of the match-day dug-out and more at ease with the bureaucratic football-speak that goes hand in hand with it: the science of technical plans, coaching blueprints and what Koevermans and other disciples of the Total Football gospel like to refer to as the Master Plan.
His qualifications are beyond question: more than 350 games in the Dutch top division with a variety of clubs and a bit-part at the 1988 European championships as a player. At 18, when young Irish players are usually trying to work out how to spend their first million, Koevermans was coaching his club's reserve side and observing the tactical nuances and variations of the senior side. At home he worked under a system that came into being in the 1970s when the Dutch featured in two World Cup finals and heads were knocked together to see how they could push forward. A bit different, you'd say, from the time Ireland participated in three major finals in succession and spent a decade throwing parties and frittering away the profits.
Koevermans didn't specify why he felt inclined to leave the bosom of such a successful system for the haphazard approach that pertains here, but if it suggests that he is up for a challenge, then he has come to the right place. A country with a third-world sporting infrastructure that exports most of its football talent abroad and that is now seemingly in the grip of a bracing recession; you wonder if he truly knows what he is letting himself in for.
He tried to draw an interesting comparison by mentioning that Holland, like Ireland, is a small country and has problems keeping players into their early 20s to the benefit of the national side. But this came laced with caveats. Koevermans mentioned Wes Sneijder, who moved to Madrid only
when he was 23, but he could have added Ruud van Nistelrooy, Dirk Kuyt, Robin van Persie, Rafael van der Vaart and a host of others who all stayed home through their formative years.
Now he is moving to a culture where no gifted kid with ambition stays at home beyond 17 and those who do and still make it, from Kevin Doyle to Paul McGrath, could be listed on the back of a cigarette packet. "So if you make a good environment and also with a very strong professional League with good, comfortable players you can keep them in," he said, "and you can influence them whichever way you want. It's always better that way."
It was all positive, can-do stuff and you left thinking that if Koevermans is as enthusiastic about Irish football when his four-year term is up, then he will have done well. He was polite about all things Irish, far too polite, told us nice things about the country and gave fond recollections about Irish teams he had himself faced during his playing days when most of Europe must have looked on aghast, wondering in which cave the team's tactics were devised.
Perhaps once he is settled into his role, travelling the country, witnessing first-hand the strange pull of the GAA and the relative squalor in which the average junior soccer club operates, he will become more than a little exasperated with what he sees. It would be strange indeed if he didn't

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Originally Posted by Kildare Lad

Just a question though, do youse who know the score with the emerging talent squads think that the scouts pick up the best players from the area to come to these?

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well everyone has different opinions on players so some people will think that they have the best players while others will disagree.
obviously, the stand-out players will be picked and after that there may be 10 players vying for 5 spots. the scout has to pick 5 and you are never going to please everyone. tough job as someone will always be disappointed

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Originally Posted by Kildare Lad

Agree that the FAI is going in the right direction with the Emerging Talent squads and great to hear about the plans for the Academy in Abbotstown, but still I reckon it will take one or two players to make it "big" through these academys before kids choose them ahead of going across the water to England.

Just a question though, do youse who know the score with the emerging talent squads think that the scouts pick up the best players from the area to come to these?

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I'm not 100% sure what exactly your question is. My experience in Sligo is that all local clubs are asked to send in what they consider to be their better players for trials for the Sligo-Leitrim Emerging Talent squad. Then from those trials the FAI coaches select their squad and that squad is then taken in for training over the course of the season and they take part in 'Inter League Matches'- usually regionalised.

I think the intension then is for the FAI coaches to recommend any player from their Emerging Talent squad they consider to be of sufficient ability to join a national squad for training in Dublin and this is done at all age groups from under 11 to under 18.

All of the above is open to correction.

I think the whole scouting system would be easier with a more organised league structure. At the moment there's the provincial Senior Leagues, district leagues, Sunday Leagues, the Kerry League, and it's not clear where these are in terms of standard in relation to each other. I think non-league football in Ireland would bebefit from a more rigid structure, say 4 provincial leagues with an appropriate number of divisions, then further separated into county regions below that, the system could be mirrored for clubs' junior teams. The FAI could then appoint a talent scouting team for each region or county, who would know when the games would be played, where they would be played, and who would be playing. The fragmented, tangled system we have at the moment isn't really doing anyone any favours.

I hadn't heard much about the academy in Abbotstown, I'm going to put my hand up and admit to my ignorance on that one. How is the contracting done for it? Are the players still contracted to club or the academy? If there is no system put in place, the risk is that the FAI will just end up spending money on developing these kids, who then f*ck off to England on a free transfer anyway, so the real winners are the English clubs, who pay less for player development.

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I hadn't heard much about the academy in Abbotstown, I'm going to put my hand up and admit to my ignorance on that one. How is the contracting done for it? Are the players still contracted to club or the academy? If there is no system put in place, the risk is that the FAI will just end up spending money on developing these kids, who then f*ck off to England on a free transfer anyway, so the real winners are the English clubs, who pay less for player development.

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Again I stress this is just my own opinion and completely open to correction.

I don't think contracts come in to play for players at youth level and who are registered with their local youth team. The FAI is not running the Emerging Talent Programme to make money out of having the most talented players in the country under some sort of contract. Their motivation is much more long term in that they are hoping players who do come through the Emerging Talent Programme will indeed go on to play professional football at the highest level and therefore play for the International team because at the moment the majority of people in this country only measure success by how the International team is performing.

Actually the more players that join English clubs the more successful the Emerging Talent Programme will be seen to be. In terms of financial reward there is a compensation scheme in place for Schoolboy clubs who have players sign professional contracts in any country, including League of Ireland and this is measured by the number of years that player has played with the club since under 12 level.

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Originally Posted by Redie

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I'm not 100% sure what exactly your question is. My experience in Sligo is that all local clubs are asked to send in what they consider to be their better players for trials for the Sligo-Leitrim Emerging Talent squad. Then from those trials the FAI coaches select their squad and that squad is then taken in for training over the course of the season and they take part in 'Inter League Matches'- usually regionalised.

I think the intension then is for the FAI coaches to recommend any player from their Emerging Talent squad they consider to be of sufficient ability to join a national squad for training in Dublin and this is done at all age groups from under 11 to under 18.

All of the above is open to correction.

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Yes the same thing happens down here in Kildare, each club is requested to send out who they consider their best players to trials for the KDSL squad of their age group, KDSL coaches then pick best players based from the trial and so on. But what happened down here last year for example, about 70% of league clubs didnt send their players for the trials or else they just werent bothered to show up, this created a situation where the best players in the league werent getting a look at and the KDSL squad was made up of a poor standard of players (bar one or two). Then this year there isnt even an U.15 or U.16 league squad, what are the best players at these age levels meant to do? I think there needs to be a major revamp made of this system to put a stop to quality players slipping through the net.

I also agree with peader 1987 about the non-league scene in Ireland, too many different levels for my liking, if the FAI could put together a new structure linking the lowest local leagues to the A Championship it would lead to greater opportunites for clubs throughout the country.