Sanctions for entering examinership in 2009..

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24/03/2009, 11:04 AM
holidaysong

Sanctions for entering examinership in 2009..

This is taken from the Q&A with Padraig Smith:

In addition to the standard 10 point deduction, from 2009 on a further sanctioned based on the % of debts covered by the club will be levied upon them exiting examinership. A sliding scale penalty will be applied as follows;

Code:

Aggregate % Debts Covered / Additional Point Deduction 100 0 90-99 3 80-89 6 70-79 9 60-69 12 50-59 15 40-49 18 30-39 21 20-29 24 10-19 27 0-9 30

This will ensure that clubs who pay less face heavier sanctions. Where a club enters examinership within 70 days (period of protection granted by the court) of the end of the season the additional point deduction will apply to the next season.

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It's good to see that there will be proper penalties for those who try to wipe out their debt and get away with it. It's a pity it's a season too late but the sliding scale penalties are a great idea IMO.

If these penalties had been in place last season, how many points would Cork and Drogheda have been deducted?
24/03/2009, 11:06 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by holidaysong

how many points would Cork and Drogheda have been deducted?

And Rovers a couple of years ago?

Think they were all around the 10% mark but couldn't say for certain
24/03/2009, 11:06 AM
the-blue-harp

this is the kind of action that should have been taken years ago, but still is a step forward. as long as the fai grow a pair and implement it now.
24/03/2009, 11:07 AM
GlasnevinRed

Probably would have been around 30 including the standard 10 points?
24/03/2009, 11:13 AM
Macy

Is there any clubs left for whom examinership is a realistic option, even if the poo did hit the fan? More stable door shutting, after the horse has bolted...
24/03/2009, 11:14 AM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by holidaysong

If these penalties had been in place last season, how many points would Cork and Drogheda have been deducted?

Would probably have been deducted 27 points instead of 10. Rovers would have 30 instead of 7 or 8.

I would guess in those circumstances where relegation assured clubs would probably fold & re-emerge in the A League. If a club could pay back 100% of debt it would not need to enter Examinership in the first place?

Is there a time scale for repayment of debt? Seems like this could get very messy.
24/03/2009, 3:18 PM
placid casual

I hope a copy of that has been forwarded to the following address:

Bohemians FC
Dalymount Park
Dublin 7

considering bohs will win then league by about 25 points this year could they still be in with a shout of a european spot despite the inevitable record points deduction ?

yours in sport
PC
24/03/2009, 4:29 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

Is there any clubs left for whom examinership is a realistic option, even if the poo did hit the fan?

If there were any such clubs left, this should ensure there are now none who see examinership as anything other than a last resort - well done to the FAI.

My question regarding last season still remains though - did the FAI choose to only deduct the clubs 10 points, or were there rules in place last year which limited the maximum penalty to 10 points?

Smyth, in his answers, states that 10 points was the standard penalty, and gives examples from other leagues to support this, but this alone didn't mean that the FAI had to award the same penalty, did it?
24/03/2009, 4:32 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

Is there a time scale for repayment of debt? Seems like this could get very messy.

I presume they would take the figure agreed upon as they left examinership, e.g. Cork's 7.5% (?) agreement with their creditors would have gotten them a 30 point deduction. That said, they also agreed to pay a percentage of some sell on clauses to those creditors, which would be very hard to place a value on. It would seem unfair to ignore it, and yet if they don't, the estimation might give the FAI wiggle room on how many points they deduct, which I don't like.

Rovers paid a very small percentage of their debt. HarpoJoyce has mentioned it a few times: 2 or 3% I think.

I don't recall what Drogheda paid, but I doubt it was a substantially higher fraction than Cork.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

I would guess in those circumstances where relegation assured clubs would probably fold & re-emerge in the A League. If a club could pay back 100% of debt it would not need to enter Examinership in the first place?

I don't think they'd necessarily fold. Shels and Rovers have both taken a relegation after financial trouble and survived.

There might be circumstances where 100% of the debt could be paid off - if Doyle had moved for huge money while Cork were in examinership, or if a club managed to sell its ground in that condition (having been unable or unwilling to offload it before going into examinership).
24/03/2009, 4:42 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by John83

I don't recall what Drogheda paid, but I doubt it was a substantially higher fraction than Cork.

A fair bit lower Id say given that we paid the players and a few others(MFA) in full. Revenue got 15% and the rest got 7.5%
24/03/2009, 4:47 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

A fair bit lower Id say given that we paid the players and a few others(MFA) in full. Revenue got 15% and the rest got 7.5%

That's right - that'd make your total percentage of debts paid a good bit higher, though I've not seen a breakdown of the figures.
25/03/2009, 12:34 AM
political_rebel

Quote:

Originally Posted by holidaysong

This is taken from the Q&A with Padraig Smith:

In addition to the standard 10 point deduction, from 2009 on a further sanctioned based on the % of debts covered by the club will be levied upon them exiting examinership. A sliding scale penalty will be applied as follows;

Code:

Aggregate % Debts Covered / Additional Point Deduction 100 0 90-99 3 80-89 6 70-79 9 60-69 12 50-59 15 40-49 18 30-39 21 20-29 24 10-19 27 0-9 30

This will ensure that clubs who pay less face heavier sanctions. Where a club enters examinership within 70 days (period of protection granted by the court) of the end of the season the additional point deduction will apply to the next season.

---------------------------------------------------

It's good to see that there will be proper penalties for those who try to wipe out their debt and get away with it. It's a pity it's a season too late but the sliding scale penalties are a great idea IMO.

If these penalties had been in place last season, how many points would Cork and Drogheda have been deducted?

I agree that a proper set of penalties have now been implemented. However there are a few things within the new scheme which I find unfair.

1. Take Cork City and Drogs this season. Cork City entered examinership in August and came out of it before the season finished. This in effect would mean that the club would have been deducted 10 points for entering examinership (which happened) We would have also been facing a 27 point deduction before the end of the season (based on the new penalty scheme). This would have put us in the 1st Division this season as we would have finished on 19 points.

Now take the Drogs scenario in comparsion. Because their examinership period did not finish before the season ended they would have started this season in the Premier Division with a huge points loss, most likely 27 points again. This in effect meant automatic relegation to the 1st Division next season. This would also mean that all the other teams in the league know that they will not get automatically relegated (the 9th & 8th teams would know that they have a 50/50 chance of staying up with the relegation play off)

So two clubs who enter examinership during the 2008 season both have contrastin outcomes. One (CCFC) goes directly to the 1st Division with a possibility of getting promoted and playin Premier division football again in 2010. The other (Drogs) stays in the Premier division with no prospect of premier League football in 2010.

It would have been better if the penalties were more clear cut. Automactic relegation to the 1st Division, none of this sliding scale stuff.

In my opinion I believe that clubs who come out of examinership would have a greater chance of getting stability by being relegated. Look at Rovers when they went into examinership and where they are now. Supporter owned, very well run and financially viable...None of which CCFC or Drogs can boast following examinership.
25/03/2009, 10:08 AM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by political_rebel

It would have been better if the penalties were more clear cut. Automactic relegation to the 1st Division, none of this sliding scale stuff.

But when is the team relegated? Halfway through the season? At the end of the season (leaving them with a number of games which mean absolutely nothing to them and which would be easy points for the opposition)? Either way, it is going to be as messy as the 2 examples you've given above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by political_rebel

In my opinion I believe that clubs who come out of examinership would have a greater chance of getting stability by being relegated. Look at Rovers when they went into examinership and where they are now. Supporter owned, very well run and financially viable

I don't know that you can say for sure that Rovers being in the first division had so much to do with that.
25/03/2009, 3:29 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by political_rebel

In my opinion I believe that clubs who come out of examinership would have a greater chance of getting stability by being relegated. Look at Rovers when they went into examinership and where they are now. Supporter owned, very well run and financially viable...None of which CCFC or Drogs can boast following examinership.

Rovers aren't in that condition just because they were relegated. Their supporters were positioned for a takeover. That just wasn't the case with Cork or particularly with Drogs. I think it's a bit early to say they haven't successfully reorganised too.
25/03/2009, 3:37 PM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by political_rebel

In my opinion I believe that clubs who come out of examinership would have a greater chance of getting stability by being relegated. Look at Rovers when they went into examinership and where they are now. Supporter owned, very well run and financially viable...None of which CCFC or Drogs can boast following examinership.

I think most City fans would have accepted relegation if that was the rule. Sometimes staying in the Premier puts greater pressure on budgets or from what appeasr to the case for Drogs feck all budget so already relegation favourites.
25/03/2009, 3:39 PM
sonofstan

Quote:

Originally Posted by placid casual

I hope a copy of that has been forwarded to the following address:

Bohemians FC
Dalymount Park
Dublin 7

considering bohs will win then league by about 25 points this year could they still be in with a shout of a european spot despite the inevitable record points deduction ?

yours in sport
PC

Well, it would probably get there, but for the last time it's Bohemian FC, or Bohemians, but not-ever- Bohemians FC.....