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Folks, can anyone shed any light on this for me, or point me to a website.
I have seen two programmes for Ireland V England (1958 & 1960) at Windsor Park in Belfast. It's clear from their content that the team is Northern Ireland, however i was under the impression that the "which team was Ireland debate was sorted by FIFA in 1953."
When did Northern Ireland stop referring to themselves as Ireland?
Thanks in advance.
They still used the name in the British Home Championship after 1953, as this wasn't regulated by FIFA.
I've heard some of the older NI fans over on OWC say you commonly heard the team referred to as "Ireland" without it raising an eyebrow amongst anyone within their support or beyond it well into the 70's -and pretty much until the old British championship came to a halt which was '82 I think.
Cotext, context, context.
In those days we would have been referred to as the Irish Free State. Presumably NI kind of took Ireland but it doesn't make that sense they'd still be referred to as Ireland in the 1970s.
My understanding is
The last All Ireland side fielded by the IFA was v Wales at Wrexham in 1950.
Both associations claimed the term Ireland. FIFA decreed circa 1954 that Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland should be used. Both then used small "northern"/"Republic of" and big IRELAND on their programmes etc. Now this was done for games v foreign opposition but not for Home Championship games right up until the early 70's.
The Home Championship lasted until 1984. Northern Ireland was used in the later years. The switch was sometime in the early to mid 70's. Prior to that in England it was Ireland and Eire being used.
It is only since the Charlton era that we have become commonly known as Ireland outside of the Republic.
Some examples
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...7/irespa63.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...7/iresco67.jpg
A Republic of Ireland programme from the 1960's
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...7/iresco69.jpg
Great info gspain, thanks.
A good and accurate summary, Gspain, but I'm not sure about one detail (emboldened). I had thought that FIFA decreed the use of the "Northern Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" titles in 1950.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Decades previously the four "Home" nations had left FIFA, so declining to enter the 1930, 1934 and 1938 World Cups. (They were apparently very "sniffy" about ceding control of "their" game to FIFA, and were worried the World Cup would conflict with the British Championship etc!).
However, there was a rapprochement after WWII, which culminated in a fundraising game between the UK team and the Rest of Europe at Hampden Park:
"The 1947 game, dubbed the 'Match of the Century', was played to celebrate the return of the Home Nations to FIFA (they had left in 1920). For the match, played at Scotland's Hampden Park in front of 135,000 spectators, the Great Britain side wore a navy blue strip in honour of the host association. The gate receipts, totalling £35,000, helped boost the finances of FIFA, which had been damaged by the lack of competition during World War II. On that occasion, the Great Britain team consisted of:
Frank Swift (England), George Hardwick (England), Billy Hughes (Wales), Archie Macaulay (Scotland), Jackie Vernon (Ireland), Ron Burgess (Wales), Stanley Matthews (England), Wilf Mannion (England), Tommy Lawton (England), Billy Steel (Scotland), Billy Liddell (Scotland)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B...I#cite_note-28
(I think Johnny Carey of "Eire" may have played for Rest of Europe, possibly even as captain, in this game, which the home team won 6-1)
Anyhow, as a consequence, FIFA agreed to acknowledge and incorporate the special and separate status of the four British Associations, including certain privileges over rule-making etc, and in turn the Associations agreed to re-join FIFA and start entering the World Cup.
Which is where I think the Irish name dispute needed to be addressed, since FIFA could not accept two teams with the same name in the same competition. Consequently, they decreed that for all World Cup matches (later also European Nations Cup), the teams must be designated "NI" and "ROI" etc, with these appellations mandated to be used on all official documents, programmes, scoreboards etc
Certainly if you look at FIFA's website, you'll see this was implemented for the 1950 World Cup Qualifiers:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...y=6/index.html
(Note that the Home Nations decided to use the British Championship as their 1950 and 1954 "Qualifiers", presumably in order not to detract from their own tournament!)
For non-WCQ British Championship matches and (rare) friendlies, however, the IFA was permitted to go on using the name "Ireland", as we had always done. And iirc, we kept on doing so until around 1970, when we reverted to NI for all games.
Nonetheless, I remember the name "Ireland" occasionally being used by the fans in chants and songs etc for a few years after this time. By contrast, when we had occasion to refer to our Southern chums, we would normally have referred to you as "Eire" (also common throughout GB), or even the "Free State" (old-timers, at least).
And I wish you'd stop encouraging it, since if anyone is entitled to use that term it is ourselves - "Original and Best!" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Facinating thread, very interesting.
When I was a kid I can recall in the 70's The BBC calling NI "Ireland" and us "Eire".
If I am not mistaken we played in several WC qualfiers in the 60's and 70's as "Eire" and not "Ireland". The "Republic of Ireland" thing did not seem to show up until near the 80's.
Still a great shame about the politics wrecking an all Ireland team.
Separate issues EG
The FAI went to FIFA and the English in 1950 clubs to prevent southern players playing for NI. This is well documented in Peter Byrne's official history of the FAI 1996. There are online extracts somewhere but a quick google couldn't find them.FIFA were already concerned re players playing for 2 countries in the world cup and took the FAI's side. I always find it ironic when the IFA are referred to as a "partitionist association" given the history and how hard they fought to have one All Ireland team governed by the IFA.
At the FIFA congress prior to the 1954 World Cup both associations tried to lay claim to the term Ireland. This is where FIFA decreed that Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland be used. Our first game as RoI was then v Norway 1954. We used Irish Free State up until 1936 and then Ireland until 1954.
I have the original FAI submission for this (bought at an auction a few years back) and will scan sometime soon.
I stand corrected. (I might have known not to dispute your account! :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
P.S. Without wishing in any way to re-open old wounds, when you refer to the irony of the "partitionist" [sic] IFA etc, in the context of the Gibson/Eligibility dispute, it is a further (little-remarked) irony that it should originally have been the FAI who sought FIFA's help in preventing the IFA from picking what would effectively have been an "all-Ireland" team.
I think that would be a real rathole for this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
BTW I'm pretty sure there was no effectively about it. The IFA up until 1950 considered itself to be picking an All Ireland team.
Furthermore although I never went as far as proving this or saw it referenced elsewhere it would appear that for most of the 1930's the FAI did not pick players while they were representing the IFA. I researched a few and Jimmy Dunne is one that springs to mind. He went quite a few years without playing for the RoI while playing for NI. Given he was winning leagues with Arsenal he should have been good enough then and is still considered one of our all time greats.
I think it was fairly emphatically proven that the IFA couldn't administer football on a 32-county basis when they actually did it before partition...
Me da was a Windsor Park regular right up until the mid 70s when he stopped going after a few incidents.
He said that most people he was with(South Stand) referred to it as Ireland, even after the name change but as with everything the "Northern Ireland" element began creeping in with the crowd he want with in the late 60s, early 70s.
Indeed. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Perhaps it was mere semantics/pedantry on my part, but what I was trying to get across was that the IFA felt it was picking the Irish team i.e. that they were the (only) legitimate authority to do so (as presumably the FAI felt was their entitlement, in turn). Remember, too, that up until WWII, many/most players will have been born pre-partition i.e. at a time when the IFA was the sole authority on the island, North and South.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Having been corrected by you already :o, I am loathe to disagree again, but I'm not so sure about that. In all, there were 35 dual internationalists, some of whom were first picked by the IFA, then the FAI, and others the other way round. Many represented both Associations simultaneously, including 12 who were first picked by the FAI in 1931 or earlier. At least one, Enniskillener Harry Chatton, was born in what is now NI:Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html
Tbh, Jimmy Dunne is not a good example, since it seems that he was "spotted" early by the IFA in 1928, aged 23, before his career (at Sheffield United) had really taken off. When a year or two later he started playing regularly and scoring freely at Brammell Lane, he was very quickly selected by the FAI, winning his first cap for them in 1930. (Incidentally, his Arsenal career was short and disappointing, though that should not reflect badly upon someone who was clearly an outstanding footballer, as this profile shows:Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/11/jimmy-dunne.html )
One other thing which emerges from this period is that contrary to what some may expect, the IFA apparently treated Southern players rather well when they turned out for them.
A number, including Dunne, Johnny Carey and Con Martin, were even made Captain by the IFA, something which was considered a greater honour then than nowadays.
Indeed, the FAI's 1950 appeal to FIFA was actually the culmination of a period during which they exerted a great deal of pressure on Southern players not to accept invitations from the IFA.
This extract from an interview with Con Martin gives an interesting account of what went on:
"Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
So, that game against Wales — March 8, 1950 — was the last time an All-Ireland team played (ever…?). The other Southern players present were Bud Aherne, Reg Ryan and David Walsh (Johnny Carey had been withdrawn by United)"
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp
In the light of current events, I have to say it's all very ironic...
Jimmy Dunne went 6 years from 1930-1936 without getting a cap from the FAI. I'd need to research it properly and put the lineups side by side but I noticed an IFA team from the early 30's with quite a few southern players and none played for us in a game around the time. However I haven't done enough research to make a case.
The Cunninghams who owned Shamrock rovers also were involved in the selection committe for the RoI side. There are rumours that many Rovers players were picked to put them in the shop window. Tommy O'Connor caused consternation when he was picked ahead of Tommy Eglinton for Goodison in 1949. Rovers had home and away friendlies v Villa from 49-53.
Good stuff, lads plenty of good info. You know your stuff alright.
Maybe this isn't the thread for it and I'm sure we covered it before(with gspain clearing up many things that time as well) but one way to solve the Ireland name thing..... olympic team.
I think it would be a good time to try something with the London olympics in a couple of years would be ideal.
It wouldn't have to be a preamble to an all Ireland league or team if people didn't sway that way. Just a thought.
Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.
How are Great Britain entering a team for it? Is it just because they are hosts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Yeah.