Irelands midfield and forward problems.

I think that a lot of the problems we have had in the last fe games is due to an under performing midfield and a lack of a qualify target man up-front.

The last time this occurred with Ireland was during the 1994 WC campaign and JC where Quinn was injured and Cascarino out of favour.

IIRC we reverted to a 5 man midfield then and it worked quite well. I think that it may be time for us to try it again.

I'd like us to play 4-5-1 in our next friendly with the following team.

Given
Carr Cunningham O'Shea Finnan
S.Reid Healy Miller MacPhail Duff
Keane

What Do you think?

no disrespect but while Keane can lead the line, he's not likely to do so in a 451 line up, he drops deep to look for the ball and isn't a target man.
i think 442 will always be our strongest option
i think the time is right to begin blooding some of the up and coming lads.

i'd start with thornton, miller and andy reid
we should give andy o'brien more starts as well.

I was thinking that Keane mightn't be big enough to lead the front line but then I remembered that the last few times we played 451 we played it with Tommy Coyne and David Connolly. Keane has a better first touch, is faster, can beat a player, is more intelligent and is deceptively strong for his size.

I think he can hold his own there.
Our wide players are our strength. Miller looks like the type of player who likes to get forward and will pick up a few goals coming from deep.

I think the 4-5-1 is just about doable if you have someone who can fill the Scholes role in the hole and provide a link with midfield. I'm pretty sure that we don't, and that none of the new lads coming through are going to rectify that. Playing a 4-5-1 with our current midfield options would be putting far too much pressure on Miller to get forward and get goals. If he underperformed or was out hurt, we'd really struggle. McPhail and Healy have not convinced me that they'd ever get more than a very rare goal and just don't provide many attacking options in terms of aggressive running.

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Originally posted by NigeSausagepump
I think the 4-5-1 is just about doable if you have someone who can fill the Scholes role in the hole and provide a link with midfield. I'm pretty sure that we don't, and that none of the new lads coming through are going to rectify that. Playing a 4-5-1 with our current midfield options would be putting far too much pressure on Miller to get forward and get goals. If he underperformed or was out hurt, we'd really struggle. McPhail and Healy have not convinced me that they'd ever get more than a very rare goal and just don't provide many attacking options in terms of aggressive running.

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I think Miller could fill that Scholes role. There would be less pressure on him in a 5 man midfield. He wouldn't have to worry as much about the defensive side of things. If he couldn't maybe someone like Andy Reid could do it. He can play in central midfield.
You also have Thornton who could possibly fill this role. Of those 3 I think that miller has the most potential. He seems full of running.
Healy is also someone I think that can contribute goals.
With 5 in midfield it allows our wingers more licence to cut inside. I think Reid and Duff can pick up some goals.
If we play 442 it means either playing Morrisson or Doherty there who offer nothing in passing terms.

The problem with 4-5-1 is Keane doesn't suit it at all. His game is all about dropping deep and creating, so we'll be left in a situation where we've pretty much nobody in the box. Keane can't do the lone striker role, it'd be stupid to ask him too, so if we want to do this we'd have to drop him, which I think we can all agree is out of the question.

I think he can still drop deep in a 451 formation if our wide players get forward which they will and you get central midfielders going past him.
I think for the sake of the team we need Keane in as forward a position as possible. When he gets the ball we need him to control it then pass it rather than a lot of the over elaboration that he usually does.
When our wingers and forward running midfielder he will have options to give and go.

Lets Face it Keane is still very young, and if he needs to adapt his game a little to fit in with a new formation, then surely that is all part of his career progression.

As for Miller I've seen pretty much all of his performances for Celtic, and he is full of running, a very neat and tidy passer and does get in to the box. However, to play the 'Scholes' role you have to have something that little bit extra and I just don't know whether he has that, as he hasn't played enough games yet.

Andy Reid sounds on fire and a great prospect, I've seen absolutely nothing of him, Anyone know when the next Forest game is likely to be shown on Sky??

I saw the first hour of the Forest game with Rotherham the other night. Andy Reid has bags of promise, of that there's no doubt. Both his running off the ball and vision are excellent and contributed directly to both Forest goals. His defence-splitting pass for the second sticks in my sieve-like memory, and that's saying something. He was the best player on the park by a long way.

I hope we see him in the senior side soon, and I'm fairly sure we will. Himself and Duffer down either flank will be our key strength in years to come.

:D PP

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Originally posted by colster
I think he can still drop deep in a 451 formation if our wide players get forward which they will and you get central midfielders going past him.

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now you're circling, he drops and gives it to wingers??? who do they cross to, Keane's not there, oh yeah, central midfielders!!! it's already been said that apart from miller on the team you suggested that none of the others are going to pop up in the box too often.

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Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
I saw the first hour of the Forest game with Rotherham the other night. Andy Reid has bags of promise, of that there's no doubt. Both his running off the ball and vision are excellent and contributed directly to both Forest goals. His defence-splitting pass for the second sticks in my sieve-like memory, and that's saying something. He was the best player on the park by a long way.

I hope we see him in the senior side soon, and I'm fairly sure we will. Himself and Duffer down either flank will be our key strength in years to come.

:D PP

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He has certaintly been influencial to Forest,he is a bright prospect
and would have done far better in the midfield than one or
two of the current crop of players.
Its a shame he was never considered as he can make things happen.

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Originally posted by colster
I think Miller could fill that Scholes role. There would be less pressure on him in a 5 man midfield. He wouldn't have to worry as much about the defensive side of things. If he couldn't maybe someone like Andy Reid could do it. He can play in central midfield.
You also have Thornton who could possibly fill this role. Of those 3 I think that miller has the most potential. He seems full of running.
Healy is also someone I think that can contribute goals.
With 5 in midfield it allows our wingers more licence to cut inside. I think Reid and Duff can pick up some goals.
If we play 442 it means either playing Morrisson or Doherty there who offer nothing in passing terms.

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Thornton has struck me as a midfielder with enormous stamina and a hard tackle, but a deep striker? I really doubt it. That aside, we don't even know if Miller or Andy Reid are up to international football in their preferred positions yet, so why give them a vital role in the team?

Our strengths at the moment are Duff and Keane in attack. We can experiment around them, but play them in their proper positions. Unless Keane suddenly grows another foot (we could always use a three-footed striker... I'll stop now) and puts on some muscle, he's not going to be up to a lone striker role. FFS, when Spurs played Kanoute behind him, it was a disaster by all accounts.

The weaknesses in the present team are in the centre of midfield, the lack of a right winger, and maybe a left-back if O'Shea is to be used elsewhere.

We've got so many options for midfield that it astounds me that people want to try other formations. Miller, Healy, Thornton, Steven Reid and indeed O'Shea should all be tried there, and others like Andy Reid and Thomaas Butler should be tested also. Finnan has never been tried in left-back. Murphy and Colgan (and maybe a couple of otehrs) haven't been given a chance to prove their worth, or to gain experience for the grim possibility of Given getting injured when it matters.

Hell, let's give Glen Crowe a run up front with Keane. As long as Morrisson isn't playing football, Doherty is a vaguely mobile totem pole and Connelly is an unreliable little so-and-so, we need to try other options, but let's not experiment with a proven formation that suits our best players.

i think this formation is worth a try. With 5 in midfield it allows our wingers to push on to make it a 433 and 451 when defending.
Healy and Miller have the bite and energy to make runs into the box.
Keane has the pace and intelligence to make runs across the line.
Reid and Duff are intelligent enough to make runs into the box and interchange with Keane.
Reid can also provide us with some height and so we can still play the long ball.

People are forgetting that Keane has already played this role for Ireland when Duff played up front.

For Ireland Keane is most effective when he runs out to the wing not when he drops deep into midfield.
He can still do this as a lone front man.

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Originally posted by colster
People are forgetting that Keane has already played this role for Ireland when Duff played up front.

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Exactly, and look how poor our goals return was when he did play that role.

I think if Keanes injured or suspended it could work, but with Keane up there it just doesn't suit his style at all.

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Originally posted by Slash/ED
Exactly, and look how poor our goals return was when he did play that role.

I think if Keanes injured or suspended it could work, but with Keane up there it just doesn't suit his style at all.

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Yeah the goals return may not have been great but the results were quite good. I think we only lost 2 (Russia(a) and Switzerland(h)).
And he gave the likes of Spain, Germany and Holland a torrid time.

Keane is our most potent striker. I think he should live off the shoulder of the defence and not drop deep. He has rarely if ever been successful when he drops deep into midfield.

Another point is that Morrisson, Connolly and Doherty will not offer as much up front as Reid, miller, healy, macphail and Duff could potentially do in a 451 cum 433 formation.

With wingers like Reid and Duff this formation will be a 433 when we have the ball.
It's a very attacking formation which will ensure that we pass the ball, get it wide and not just lump it forward.

it can also very easiy become a 442 with Reid/Duff tucking in to partner Keane and Miller/MacPhail moving out to the wing. Reid has played up front for Millwall before and has looked quite handy.

We need to be fluid. I think this system and the players in it are intelligent enough to make it work.

Keanes not an off the shoulder player. No matter how good or bad he is, that's not his style. As it happens, his finishing can be quite poor at times, so it wouldn't suit him anyway, but that's just not his position at all.

The only player in our squad who plays off the shoulders of defenders is Clinton Morrison, and Morrison will offer far more up front then McPhail will anywhere, he's proven he's not international class,.Morrisons goal record speaks for itself. He and Keane could work very well together, they suit each others style.

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Originally posted by Slash/ED
Keanes not an off the shoulder player. No matter how good or bad he is, that's not his style. As it happens, his finishing can be quite poor at times, so it wouldn't suit him anyway, but that's just not his position at all.

The only player in our squad who plays off the shoulders of defenders is Clinton Morrison, and Morrison will offer far more up front then McPhail will anywhere, he's proven he's not international class,.Morrisons goal record speaks for itself. He and Keane could work very well together, they suit each others style.

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I agree wholeheartedly.