View Full Version : Are Cork City Gone
Remember we have assets :)
You do? :eek: :confused:
Demoshield
28/08/2008, 9:29 PM
Complete joke of a punishment, the FAI are a joke, First galway get fined €300 for racist comments made by some "fans" of theirs. Shels nearly get thrown outta the league for a very similiar situatuion as Cork and Cork get a point deduction and a slap on the wrist. There getting worse and worse the FAI.
Slow down, deep breaths, don't go gettin youself all worked up like that.
GUFC were fined because "A" scumbag (ie 1 scumbag) made a racist comment. Read the title of the thread before you post, nothing to do with this discussion.
Cork got deducted ten (ie 10) points. Not "a point deduction".
Yourself & sligofan4ever in the St Pat's vs Elfs thread really on the ball tonight. Even for Sligwegians thats shocking.;)
Originally Posted by sligofan4ever
3-2 aggregate so far
1st leg Elfs 2-2 Pats (pats have 2 goals which means its really 4-2)
2nd leg St.Pats 0-1 Elfs (elfs have 1 away goal which means 4-4 and could to extra time)
HarpoJoyce
28/08/2008, 9:34 PM
If a club collects enough asterixes can they be used as Ninja stars at a later date?
If a club collects enough asterixes can they be used as Ninja stars at a later date?
You get to put them on your jersey like for League wins. :p
stickyjoe
28/08/2008, 9:45 PM
Absolutely scandalous decision from the FAI, but hardly surprising. Where is the consistency? They hung Shels out to dry and rightly relegated them and since then have come riding to the rescue of Waterford and Limerick and now give Cork a small slap on the wrist. Its no wonder Shels fans are giving out.
Be interesting to see what happens when it happens next to either Bohs, Drogheda or Pats.
SMorgan
28/08/2008, 10:09 PM
[How on earth can Cork keep their licence?
They got the dame thing on the basis of a commitment from the club owners that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Therefore they got the licence under false portentous and they should loss it. End of.
Todays decision mades the whole set-up a laughing stock.
Where can I buy those Liverpool shares?
stamullendrog
28/08/2008, 10:28 PM
there not going to **** cork out of the league in the middle of the season.if things aint patched up by the end of the season they will more than likely get the shels treatment.while i wouldnt be a big cork fan the league needs a team from cork city in it and i hope it gets sorted to some degree where the club is still around.best of luck with it lads
Bohemian1890
28/08/2008, 10:36 PM
Exactly. Shels kept their title for that season but could not get a Premier or European licence the following season. Did Shels go into Examinership? They failed to pay players wages for a lot longer than 1 week.
Shels gave up that European place afaik as they would not have a team to enter it??
stann
28/08/2008, 11:35 PM
Absolutely scandalous decision from the FAI, but hardly surprising. Where is the consistency? They hung Shels out to dry and rightly relegated them and since then have come riding to the rescue of Waterford and Limerick and now give Cork a small slap on the wrist. Its no wonder Shels fans are giving out.
Be interesting to see what happens when it happens next to either Bohs, Drogheda or Pats.
Em, when did they come riding to the rescue of Waterford? And have a proper think about it this time.
Bluebeard
28/08/2008, 11:38 PM
On the night we should be celebrating a great result for the league, we're first presented with league damaging news. In the morning, the broadsheets will be enjoying the opportunity to talk of some English team rumoured to be spending £Xmillion on a mediocre left back, Ronaldo's typical breakfast cereal, the price of Guinness in the Irish pub in Mainz, and their token LOI coverage will be focussed on Cork being trouble. Nice.
Cork City are still alive to the end of the season, by the looks of things. I for one am glad. Whatever about any guff about the league needing a strong Cork team, the league does not need another team to collapse midseason. Nor does it need some of its more eloquent and informed younger fans (sadly I do mean us) to be tearing strips off each other over the matter. Reading this thread has been like watching players on the same team starting to throw punches at one another after conceding a soft goal.
Like it or not, dislike the other teams or not, if the LOI has a bad rep, are teams do too by association. I want to see the Blues destroy everyone on the field of play week in week out and genuinely have little interest in the results of teams that are more than two or three places above or below us. However, in cases like this, though Cork are out of my field of vision (for this season anyway), this matters. The reputation of the league, and as a result, WUFC, is at stake.
While Arkaga may be sh!tehawks of the first degree, laughing at Cork fans for being glad that some crowd came along and promised to make sure everything was good is naive on the part of all fans of LOI teams, except perhaps Wexford (thanks to one man's missionary work and funding) and Monaghan (a team funded by its own bar). We at Waterford had our troubles season after season the past few years (dunno about the FAI bailing us out and I wouldn't say that Lims really got saved as much as an extension on a loan of trust). Lims folded and reformed in a matter of weeks. Shels fans got the thin end of the wedge, but sadly the management of the club had earned it. Dublin City died a horrible sudden death while doing OK in the Premier Division. Have people forgotten that one of the better run clubs in the country, ambition free Kilkenny sank at the beginning of the year?
Who has lost out in all these situations. Not the Boards of Directors, for the most part, thanks to laws put in to protect companies. Not even so much the players, almost all players cut loose who were full time were back in employment at the next transfer window, many of the better part-timers found their way back into the league somewhere before too long. Certainly not the media - bad news sells papers. Nope, as usual, the fans suffer. And what is happening to Cork fans right now was felt by us a few months back (and probably again by the end of the season), by Kilkenny at the season's start, by Lims ans Shels over Christmas 2006, Rovers before then, the list continues.
Ultimately the league does not need a strong Cork team any more than a strong Waterford team or a strong Limerick team or a strong Derry team. Many of us would like that, but what the league needs most are strong teams, from as many different towns and cities as possible. However Cork needs a strong league team, and Cork's fans, who are no better than any others, whatever they may say, nor any worse, whatever we may chant, deserve better than this awfulness. And we need to be aware that, with very few exceptions, it could happen us yet. To take a line from a good entertaining, if patchy novel, "Brother, before you take the splinter from my eye, attend the plank in your own".
Cue a horde of replies saying how wonderful their club is, how they are not guilty, or asking what would I know about any of this.
At this stage Id be delighted to be guaranteed first division football next season
Swap divisions with ya;)
micls
28/08/2008, 11:40 PM
Swap divisions with ya;)
Very good post. Thanks for that.
Guarantee me a club next year and I would in a heartbeat
Bluebeard
28/08/2008, 11:47 PM
Very good post. Thanks for that.
Guarantee me a club next year and I would in a heartbeat
The London Branch of the Dublin Blues Supporters Club is opening up a Cork office this weekend! Find me on Patrick's Hill at the cycling on SUnday, and I can get you approved in a matter of seconds. It might be a different club, but it is a club;)
cheifo
29/08/2008, 12:48 AM
Tin hat on here but I feel the FAI made the correct decision.
Fans of the club should be taken into consideration, and given the fact that there is much turmoil still to come , a 10 point deduction is enough.
I can obviously understand why fans of other clubs are angry at the lack of consistency.
bohs til i die
29/08/2008, 8:42 AM
****ing joke. 10 points?? **** that. The FAI make it up as they go along. Can't believe we were almost flung out of the league for something similar yet Cork get off with a slap on the wrist.
Actually the penalty is a reasonably fair one. Its the standard penalty for clubs in england who enter administration (Examinerhsip isnt the same but its similar).
Shels repeatedly didnt pay players, built up debts of millions, far more then Cork and were spending far more money in a reckless manner. Shels had also faced several winding-up orders from the revenue commissioners.
Im surprised the FAI have taken a decision now. I thought they might wait until the process is complete before making a judgement. I had expected Cork to be relegated at the end of the season because I thought the FAI would want to make an example of one of the bigger clubs as a warning to the rest of the league.
jinxy lilywhite
29/08/2008, 8:49 AM
Actually the penalty is a reasonably fair one. Its the standard penalty for clubs in england who enter administration (Examinerhsip isnt the same but its similar).
Shels repeatedly didnt pay players, built up debts of millions, far more then Cork and were spending far more money in a reckless manner. Shels had also faced several winding-up orders from the revenue commissioners.
Im surprised the FAI have taken a decision now. I thought they might wait until the process is complete before making a judgement. I had expected Cork to be relegated at the end of the season because I thought the FAI would want to make an example of one of the bigger clubs as a warning to the rest of the league.
The FAI made their decision as the examiner advised that while punishment/sanction where looming in Cork it may deter potential investors
Todays decision mades the whole set-up a laughing stock.
because they follow european standards by deducting points for a team going into examinership/administration. 10 points over a 33 game season is a tough penalty
You get to put them on your jersey like for League wins. :p
:D
The nearest comparable situation in our league was Rovers, and they got a points deduction. And even then, they didn't get any sanctions for going into examinership.
Remember that Shels weren't punished for their indiscretions that season (being allowed keep the league'n'all), they were refused a premier license for the next. Cork still have to apply for that license, so they may end up in division one.
As it stands, 10 points is an appropriate sanction.
passinginterest
29/08/2008, 9:13 AM
Ten points seems fair to me too. It gives the club a chance to get it's house in order before the end of the season, if a new investor comes in and covers the losses they can get back within the other licensing criteria and qualify for a new premier license next season. Hopefully the supporters can buy into the club enough to have a major say in it's future direction.
LeixlipRed
29/08/2008, 9:39 AM
You do? :eek: :confused:
How many times has this been discussed on here? We own the lease to Tolka. And have already sold it. For 20 million plus. And there's a sizeable sum left.
OneRedArmy
29/08/2008, 9:43 AM
And there's a sizeable sum left.How much exactly?
Do you have immediate access to it?
holidaysong
29/08/2008, 9:50 AM
A ten point deduction is an insult to all the clubs playing by the rules and keeping their finances in order. Cork City's Premier Licence should have been withdrawn and they should have been relegated.
:mad:
Trainee
29/08/2008, 10:02 AM
Everyone who reckons cork got away lighty cop on
If Fai took away Cork's Licence now they would not be allowed to play any more games in Prem league this season which would have the league in a worst mess.
If the cork have not sorted out their mess by end of season they will stugle to get a prem licence next season ( same thing that happend to shels)
bohs til i die
29/08/2008, 10:04 AM
A ten point deduction is an insult to all the clubs playing by the rules and keeping their finances in order. Cork City's Premier Licence should have been withdrawn and they should have been relegated.
:mad:
That can still happen at the end of this season. The teams in the premier division next year will be the teams who get premier licenses.
Louth4sam
29/08/2008, 10:24 AM
Everyone who reckons cork got away lighty cop on
Of course they got away lightly they were paying massive wages for players they couldn't afford which was stopping other clubs from signing them. Maybe Rovers, Bray or even yourselves could have signed some of these players and would be challenging more.
Cork only lost 10 points which made no difference really to their season. But they affected other teams season's by taking points off them with these players.
How many points have cork taken off Galway this season?
In my opinion cork should have lost all their points up to now or at the very least start next season with a massive point deduction. a 10 point loss when they had nothing to play for is no punishment at all.
Dodge
29/08/2008, 10:33 AM
Of course they got away lightly they were paying massive wages for players they couldn't afford which was stopping other clubs from signing them. Maybe Rovers, Bray or even yourselves could have signed some of these players and would be challenging more.
Cork only lost 10 points which made no difference really to their season. But they affected other teams season's by taking points off them with these players.
How many points have cork taken off Galway this season?
In my opinion cork should have lost all their points up to now or at the very least start next season with a massive point deduction. a 10 point loss when they had nothing to play for is no punishment at all.
You realise the trouble Cork are in, don't you? You realise they may not be around, next year?
Got off lightly? :rolleyes:
bohs til i die
29/08/2008, 10:35 AM
Of course they got away lightly they were paying massive wages for players they couldn't afford which was stopping other clubs from signing them. Maybe Rovers, Bray or even yourselves could have signed some of these players and would be challenging more.
Cork only lost 10 points which made no difference really to their season. But they affected other teams season's by taking points off them with these players.
How many points have cork taken off Galway this season?
In my opinion cork should have lost all their points up to now or at the very least start next season with a massive point deduction. a 10 point loss when they had nothing to play for is no punishment at all.
Cork could now miss out on europe for next season, or even still not be given a premier licence for next season. On top of that they could also miss out on Setanta cup qualification. That adds up to €250k when you include gates, sponsorship etc.
Cork got a licence on the back of written assurances from the owner about putting money into the club. They might not get a licence to play in the premier next year.
The FAI cant really do much more at this stage. At the start of the season they could afford the squad because they had a backer who said as much in writing.
Absolutely scandalous decision from the FAI, but hardly surprising. Where is the consistency? They hung Shels out to dry and rightly relegated them and since then have come riding to the rescue of Waterford and Limerick and now give Cork a small slap on the wrist. Its no wonder Shels fans are giving out.
Small slap on the wrist? Rovers were deducted 8 points for submitting false accounts in their licensing application. They got no further sanctions for going into examinership.
City got deducted 10 points for going into examinership and may yet face further sanctions depending on how the rest of the season pans out. But for now the season continues on with minimal disruption to other clubs and City have to fight for survival let alone to avoid the possible further sanctions down the road.
The situation is different to Shels, City were given a budget and stayed within it. They were spending money that they were guaranteed. Now that guarantee is rescinded City received a ten point penalty for going into examinership and all future breaches of the license from now to the end of the season will also be punished.
LeixlipRed
29/08/2008, 10:38 AM
How much exactly?
Do you have immediate access to it?
In the words of a board member, "Not enough to build a stadium but enough to redevelop one"
Louth4sam
29/08/2008, 10:39 AM
Yes i do realise what trouble they are in and i have every sympathy for their fans but yes they did get off lightly with the punishment they received from the FAI. Are you saying they were punished severely?
The FAI cant really do much more at this stage. At the start of the season they could afford the squad because they had a backer who said as much in writing.
They could say from next season they are not accepting non legally binding bits of paper to get around their own rules. It would be a feckin start from the idiots that were supposed to be ensuring this didn't happen again.
bohs til i die
29/08/2008, 10:43 AM
Yes i do realise what trouble they are in and i have every sympathy for their fans but yes they did get off lightly with the punishment they received from the FAI. Are you saying they were punished severely?
Are you reading what has been posted?
They were docked 10 points for entering examinership. They could yet be punished more, denied a premier licence for next season. It is far from over. The examinerhsip process hasnt even fully begun yet.
Louth4sam
29/08/2008, 10:50 AM
Are you reading what has been posted?
They were docked 10 points for entering examinership. They could yet be punished more, denied a premier licence for next season. It is far from over. The examinerhsip process hasnt even fully begun yet.
Yes i am reading what was posted. Do you really believe that they will be punished more by the FAI because i don't. The FAI will do everything in its power to keep Cork in the premier as they are such a big club with great attendances.
holidaysong
29/08/2008, 10:52 AM
That can still happen at the end of this season. The teams in the premier division next year will be the teams who get premier licenses.
When Shels imploded I don't think they even applied for a premier licence for the following season but I can see Cork trying their luck and the FAI giving in.
What are the financial differences between a first and premier licence anyway?
bohs til i die
29/08/2008, 10:57 AM
Yes i am reading what was posted. Do you really believe that they will be punished more by the FAI because i don't. The FAI will do everything in its power to keep Cork in the premier as they are such a big club with great attendances.
I dont believe the FAI are the ones who have that say and if Cork's financial situation isnt assured I doubt they will get a premier licence
Yes i am reading what was posted. Do you really believe that they will be punished more by the FAI because i don't. The FAI will do everything in its power to keep Cork in the premier as they are such a big club with great attendances.
The FAI should do everything in its power to help clubs. However it should also punish them for breaking the rules. If City have unmanageable debts at the end of the season they will, most likely, be denied a premier license. Similarly they'll be punished for any other breach of licensing. Personally I hope that a deal can be agreed with the creditors (including staff & players) during the examinership process. This is what the process is for and is outside of football.
Would you feel it was a slap on the wrist if Sligo Rovers, Cobh Ramblers, Waterford Utd, or any other club in difficulty got a 10 point deduction for going into examinership (touching wood it doesn't happen)? Or should clubs like City, Drogheda, Bohs and St Pats* get punished more severely? The size and position of the club should have nothing to do with the punishment, one rule for all.
* Left out Derry as they seem to be cutting back for next season
Buile Shuibhne
29/08/2008, 11:08 AM
When Shels imploded I don't think they even applied for a premier licence for the following season but I can see Cork trying their luck and the FAI giving in.
What are the financial differences between a first and premier licence anyway?
Shels applied for and were given a premier licence for the 2007 season - which were awarded in Dec 06.
The First Instance Cmtee withdrew it in Feb 07 and issued Shels with a first div licence instead.
Calcio Jack
29/08/2008, 11:09 AM
Cork could now miss out on europe for next season, or even still not be given a premier licence for next season. On top of that they could also miss out on Setanta cup qualification. That adds up to €250k when you include gates, sponsorship etc.
Cork got a licence on the back of written assurances from the owner about putting money into the club. They might not get a licence to play in the premier next year.
The FAI cant really do much more at this stage. At the start of the season they could afford the squad because they had a backer who said as much in writing.
FAI as you say can't do much at this stage...but they can learn from this, they must in future refuse to accept "written guarantees" from so called backers which as has been demonstrated in Cork's case aren't worth the paper they were written on...instead starting next season they should insist on a bonding system whereby in the event of a club not meeting it's debts then the value of the bond could be drawn down... in reality I'd guess the likes of Arkaga would't be prepared to fund the cost of a bond.
When Shels imploded I don't think they even applied for a premier licence for the following season but I can see Cork trying their luck and the FAI giving in.
If a club applies and qualifies for a premier license they should get it. It's not about giving in.
FAI as you say can't do much at this stage...but they can learn from this, they must in future refuse to accept "written guarantees" from so called backers which as has been demonstrated in Cork's case aren't worth the paper they were written on...instead starting next season they should insist on a bonding system whereby in the event of a club not meeting it's debts then the value of the bond could be drawn down... in reality I'd guess the likes of Arkaga would't be prepared to fund the cost of a bond.
Or give themselves powers to ban the guarantors from being involved in owning/running a football club under the FAI's juristinction from 5 years up to indefinately.
holidaysong
29/08/2008, 11:22 AM
Shels applied for and were given a premier licence for the 2007 season - which were awarded in Dec 06.
The First Instance Cmtee withdrew it in Feb 07 and issued Shels with a first div licence instead.
Sorry, my mistake.
How many times has this been discussed on here? We own the lease to Tolka. And have already sold it. For 20 million plus. And there's a sizeable sum left.
Can't remember the last time had a Shels discussion ;)
Genuine question but did someone really pay 20m for the lease at Tolka? Was this before the floods as I would think almost impossible to get planning permission next to the Tolka river now. Well certainly after recent changes mooted by Minister for the Environment.
Buile Shuibhne
29/08/2008, 12:07 PM
Can't remember the last time had a Shels discussion ;)
Genuine question but did someone really pay 20m for the lease at Tolka? Was this before the floods as I would think almost impossible to get planning permission next to the Tolka river now. Well certainly after recent changes mooted by Minister for the Environment.
I posted this in another thread here the other day:
There's lots of new buildings going up along the Tolka / Richmond Rd.
The sites are excavated and 'tanked' against floods - and then built on.
LeixlipRed
29/08/2008, 12:09 PM
Next time you're in Tolka Pete, examine the new apartments as you cross the bridge. Face Tolka and they're on your right. Note the flood protection built into the building as Fintan mentioned.
Next time you're in Tolka Pete, examine the new apartments as you cross the bridge. Face Tolka and they're on your right. Note the flood protection built into the building as Fintan mentioned.
I saw new apartments next to the bridge on the Tolka Park side but i don;t think it floods at the bridge itself?
If the lease has already been sold then fine but I suspect planning permission will be more difficult going forward...
stickyjoe
29/08/2008, 12:34 PM
The situation is different to Shels, City were given a budget and stayed within it. They were spending money that they were guaranteed. Now that guarantee is rescinded City received a ten point penalty for going into examinership and all future breaches of the license from now to the end of the season will also be punished.
Yea, the situation is different. Shels have paid or will pay ALL outstanding creditors and players, Cork are now in the process of seeing what %age they can offer creditors instead of paying ALL their debts. Shels also have an asset still worth millions while Cork have no assets.
But yes, relegation for Shels and a 10 point deduction for Cork is fair:rolleyes: I don`t think anyone from Cork will be using the term "ridden rock solid" for a while.
But yes, relegation for Shels and a 10 point deduction for Cork is fair:rolleyes: I don`t think anyone from Cork will be using the term "ridden rock solid" for a while.
So you are proposing CCFC be relegated mid season? :eek:
If we are unable to pay players or debts when applying for licence next season I suspect we will be relegated.
stickyjoe
29/08/2008, 12:41 PM
So you are proposing CCFC be relegated mid season? :eek:
If we are unable to pay players or debts when applying for licence next season I suspect we will be relegated.
Why weren`t you deducted all points that you had this season and still play out the season? Similar to Rovers a few years back. A 10 point deduction is ridiculous, where is the logic or basis for this? Why was it not 5, 15, 25? Its typical making up the rules as you go along with the FAI and the reality is that they are bending over backwards to ensure that there is a premier division team in Cork next season, something that wasn`t done to help either Rovers or Shels.
Why weren`t you deducted all points that you had this season and still play out the season? Similar to Rovers a few years back.
I think Rovers were deducted 9 or 10 points. It just happened to be the start of the season so not all their points deducted. It was also for a different offense. I accept they are making it up as they go along but lets have some reality.
LeixlipRed
29/08/2008, 12:45 PM
I saw new apartments next to the bridge on the Tolka Park side but i don;t think it floods at the bridge itself?
If the lease has already been sold then fine but I suspect planning permission will be more difficult going forward...
Where was the money we were ****ing away for years coming from? The sale of the lease. Ollie was special but he couldn't conjure money from thin air
pineapple stu
29/08/2008, 12:53 PM
You can't relegate a team mid-season. Cork could well face futher sanctions, so it's best to wait until the dust settles to see what happens.
I always thought Shels were ultimately happy to take relegation last year because of the fact they'd have been hammered off the pitch otherwise.
Yea, the situation is different. Shels have paid or will pay ALL outstanding creditors and players, Cork are now in the process of seeing what %age they can offer creditors instead of paying ALL their debts. Shels also have an asset still worth millions while Cork have no assets.
But yes, relegation for Shels and a 10 point deduction for Cork is fair:rolleyes:
City are in examinership, this is a process to deal with paying debts. It involves coming to an agreement with your creditors. So yes, hopefully it will involve a percentage of debts owed, same as Rovers who you conveniently omit in this post.
I don't know the ins-and-outs of Shel's debts but I congratulate them if they have paid every creditor 100% of the monies owed, without any special agreements being reached.
Why weren`t you deducted all points that you had this season and still play out the season? Similar to Rovers a few years back. A 10 point deduction is ridiculous, where is the logic or basis for this? Why was it not 5, 15, 25? Its typical making up the rules as you go along with the FAI and the reality is that they are bending over backwards to ensure that there is a premier division team in Cork next season, something that wasn`t done to help either Rovers or Shels.
It's not similar to Rovers at all. Rovers got no penalty for going into examinership, it wasn't a breach of the license afaik. Instead they got an 8 point deduction for submitting falsified accounts, and given every chance to remain in the premier division by on-the-field methods. You could look at it as why was the FAI bending over backwards to help the most famous Irish club after it submitted falsified accounts? Personally I think the FAI should bend over backwards to help any club that is in trouble while also punishing licensing breaches by the club.
And please, please, PLEASE look at the friggin date, or even the fixture list. The season is not over, Cork City are not even guaranteed to survive let alone be a premier team next season. Try to understand, going into examinership is now punished, having unhappy creditors when applying for a new license will be punished (like Shels), submitting falsified accounts will be punished (like Rovers). Shels and Rovers had one punishment, City could yet get several. It won't matter that's its a Cork club or not. What will matter is whether or not it can satisfy the creditors and the licencing committee.
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