More Aggressive Approach Needed

[A face]

So anyone who is not an EL supporter should lose thier international tickets?

Why should an EL supporter get priority over the thousands of people that coach, manage and help out in schoolboy and junior football etc??

Why should an EL supporter get priority over somone on the block booking for the past 10 or even 20 years?

He said the ole ole crowd ..... and i fully agree with him. People who invest time, money and emotion into the domestic game at what ever level so get priority, ahead of block bookers. People who by just being there all year round make up the sum total of the domestic game should be top of the queue and always get preference.

Damn right thats the way it should be ..... sod the rest of them, let them ask their English clubs for tickets.

And there should be no guilt or fear or indecision in this either. Sort out your own first and the rest get the remainder, end of story.

[Greenforever]

The flaw in this argument is that Rugby is not a truly 'global' game, and can't be compared to football. It is played by English-speaking former colonies and a smattering of non-English speaking countries. Ireland's provinces needed the Welsh and Scottish regions to save them having to play each other 6 times a season in order to make a league. Even still, the Magners league has nowhere near the respect and 'awe' factor of the Heineken Cup, and Leinster routinely struggle to fill the RDS for matches against the Scarlets and Glasgow..

The RDS holds about 20K, every El club would love to have that problem of struggling to fill for the less glamorous games.


Football, on the other hand, is a truly global game. Every country in the world has its own domestic league, at whatever standard it may be. Who exactly would we go into 'partnership' with? Scotland would hardly go for it. Wales? Their league would drag ours down. The Faroe Islands? Pull the other one ..

As I suggested the countries that are currently making the 2nd or 3rd qualifying round of the champions league maybe. Cardiff in a league may just bring a large travelling support for a new tournament. While no guarantee of success, the one guaranteed thing is the current system is not generating successful Irish Clubs.

have you any suggestions??

[Greenforever]

He said the ole ole crowd ..... and i fully agree with him. People who invest time, money and emotion into the domestic game at what ever level so get priority, ahead of block bookers. People who by just being there all year round make up the sum total of the domestic game should be top of the queue and always get preference.

Damn right thats the way it should be ..... sod the rest of them, let them ask their English clubs for tickets.


So your idea to improve attendances at EL games is to stop the Ole Ole brigade from getting International tickets for the odd game that you may want to go to.

I don't know anyone actively involved in football that cant get tickets for home games. Yes for the very odd game once every two or three years there may be surplus demand, in the meantime your Ole Ole brigade are buying their tickets for ALL matches and therefore providing subsidies to your beloved EL.

In case you do not know the EL gets a huge percentage of FAI funds, far over what it would be entitled to base on the numbers attending matches. Fact more kids play underage soccer every week in Dublin than the El attracts in paying supporters. On this basis the DDSL is entitled to a biiger share of the FAI kitty than the EL. Those funds are mainly generated from the Ole Ole brigade you refer to. Off course from your posts you would be happy to be rid of them and thier money and settle for a league that is never going to be a force in Europe.

[TonyD]

Greenforever, I don't think much, if any, of what you're saying stacks up at all. So you think people who can't be bothered going to see, for example, Pats v Rovers will swarm along in their thousands to see Pats (or perhaps a brand new "Dublin United") v Cardiff ? Why ? You do realise that this proposal for a shiny new league exists nowhere outside your own head don't you ? Your whole reasoning here is flawed beyond belief. You say you want an Irish club to compete at the top level, are you talking seriously about competing with Man U and Real Madrid ? Is that what it would take to get you to support a local team ?

The only thing I can say is you'll have a bloody long wait. There is absolutley no chance in hell of an Irish club reaching that level with the way European football is currently structured. And they ain't going to change football europe wide just to give the poor paddies the "quality" football we're allegedly crying out for. Even if this Atlantic League as envisaged by you, were to happen it won't get an Irish team into the level your talking about. You seem to be suggesting that teams would qualify from that league into the Champions League, I'm not sure how you see that happening. I'm not saying I'd neccessarily be opposed to such a league, if the local league was to be maintained, but really it's fantasy stuff. As for support and crowds, frankly I have a hard time believing anyone who says the reason they don't go and support a local team is because the standard is poor. I just don't buy it.

It takes a certain amount of effort to go and supprt a team week in and week out and as far as I can see people genuinely can't be bothered and feel they have better things to do. That's fine, it's their perogative, but don't insult our intelligance with the "quality" argument. I take it from your posts that you still go to Ireland matches ? WHy, when the results have been so poor lately. Or don't you demands similarly high standars from the Ireland team ? I also don't buy your argument that it was a better standard in the league 30 years ago, when just about all players would have been part time, to my knowledge.

I'm with Dodge really (and with 99% of football supporters everywhere I believe.) I want to support my team. I want then to do the best they possibly can, to compete at as high a level as they possibly can. If we want to improve the overall state of club football in Ireland then I would suggest that fostering that attitude among as many people in this country with an interest in football as we can is not a bad place to start. It's not glamorous, or anything to do with fantasy leagues, or gates of 80,000 at Croke Park to play Man U in a Champions League Semi Final, but at least it's grounded in reality.

[Greenforever]

Greenforever, You do realise that this proposal for a shiny new league exists nowhere outside your own head don't you ? Your whole reasoning here is flawed beyond belief..

Yes, it is only a pie in the sky idea, but there again so was the world cup back in 1930. What I did say previously was if an All Ireland league was sanctioned by UEFA to be operated by P1 or similar, the next step would be pan european leagues. We live in a capitalistic society, where money is king.

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You say you want an Irish club to compete at the top level, are you talking seriously about competing with Man U and Real Madrid ? Is that what it would take to get you to support a local team ? .T

No, but I am just as happy supporting schoolboy football, as any other level.

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There is absolutley no chance in hell of an Irish club reaching that level with the way European football is currently structured. .

All the more reason to look at change to compete.

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Even if this Atlantic League as envisaged by you, were to happen it won't get an Irish team into the level your talking about. You seem to be suggesting that teams would qualify from that league into the Champions League, I'm not sure how you see that happening. I'm not saying I'd neccessarily be opposed to such a league, if the local league was to be maintained, but really it's fantasy stuff. .

The example I was using was:

EL winners / Runners Up qualify presently for qualifying rounds of Champions League / Uefa Cup etc. These are held in July / August.

The clubs who are knocked out in the 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds could compete in a european league played midweek. 10 - 12 teams possibly 2 divisions. This would be at a higher level than the EL and would help improve teams.

If an El team did qualify for the group stages there place in this new league could be taken by the next best placed EL side from the previous season.

Where I am coming from is competing at a higher level would help clubs improve to where they may make the breakthrough.

They would still compete in the El, but obvious changes may be needed.

It is only a concept, but there again so was the Heineken cup in Rugby a few seasons ago, as was the Champions League when previously know as the European Cup.

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As for support and crowds, frankly I have a hard time believing anyone who says the reason they don't go and support a local team is because the standard is poor. I just don't buy it. .

you dont have to buy it, but the fact is the league is not supported in its current format, and I still havent read one suggestion from you as how to improve standards or gates.

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I take it from your posts that you still go to Ireland matches ? WHy, when the results have been so poor lately. Or don't you demands similarly high standars from the Ireland team ? I also don't buy your argument that it was a better standard in the league 30 years ago, when just about all players would have been part time, to my knowledge..

Yes I go to all the Ireland matches, so you might as well slag me off for being an event groupie, As for 30 years ago, Rover were full time for a few years and our European results were IMO better than now. Dundalk came very close to putting Celtic out of Europe, and Rovers beat Utd 2 seasons running, even if they were only friendly games.

The change is that other countries have continued to pass us out at club level.

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I'm with Dodge really (and with 99% of football supporters everywhere I believe.) I want to support my team. I want then to do the best they possibly can, to compete at as high a level as they possibly can. If we want to improve the overall state of club football in Ireland then I would suggest that fostering that attitude among as many people in this country with an interest in football as we can is not a bad place to start. It's not glamorous, or anything to do with fantasy leagues, or gates of 80,000 at Croke Park to play Man U in a Champions League Semi Final, but at least it's grounded in reality.

And thats where we will always differ, I believe we have too many clubs trying to compete for a limited fan base, and each club wants to preserve its own small fan base at the possible expense of a small number of potentially successful clubs.

[Greenforever]

maybe we should try take a leaf out of the premierships book and go for the overwhelming hype angle they use??

people swallow the propaganda of the "best league in the world" so maybe we should try advertisements like they use, people reallt do go in for all that crap they spout about that league

just an idea but people believe out league is so inferior it will never get better because they believe all the bullcrap (see no swearing :D) that is said about that league if we try and build up our league with a similar amount of ballix maybe could lead to a gradual trickle through the turnstiles


Nothing to lose by trying it, at least it's postitive

[A face]

I dunno, its the wrong motivation. People should support their local clubs out of a sense of identity and civic pride, not because of some advert campaign. We'd be as bad as people who dont support the LOI then, selling our souls if you will.

[Macy]

So anyone who is not an EL supporter should lose thier international tickets?

Why should an EL supporter get priority over the thousands of people that coach, manage and help out in schoolboy and junior football etc??

Should be through the clubs - I wouldn't restrict to just League of Ireland clubs myself.


Why should an EL supporter get priority over somone on the block booking for the past 10 or even 20 years?
I wouldn't restrict distribution to League of Ireland clubs, but yes, priority should be given to people who commit to Irish football all year round, not just a few games a year. A block booker for 10 years would only barely be coming up to a couple of seasons worth of games compared to an LoI season ticket holder.

[Schumi]

The clubs who are knocked out in the 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds could compete in a european league played midweek. 10 - 12 teams possibly 2 divisions. This would be at a higher level than the EL and would help improve teams.Why would anyone enter such a league? Midweek games against unglamorous teams and huge travelling bills. It's a recipe for bankruptcy.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I dunno, its the wrong motivation. People should support their local clubs out of a sense of identity and civic pride, not because of some advert campaign. We'd be as bad as people who dont support the LOI then, selling our souls if you will.
Hasn't worked though. I'd go with lucanhoop's idea- we need to hype everything making it out to be really good, rather than just say "here it is, come along". Don't think the facilities are good enough all round though to make people come back.

[Pedro m]

I would be very much of the same opinion as Greenforever. I too am very involved with MY club. Even in the off season i'd be giving 10+ hrs to bits related to my club. For me the real strength of Irish football is at local/grassroots (hate that term) level. I'm not trying to get at any EL supporters everyone to their own.

Back on topic - IMO the problem stems from the strength of the GAA. The local aspect ie the parish etc. My closest EL club is prob Pats maybe they do a lot of work in their area. How many clubs had a schoolboy/underage section before it became a requirement under licensing? Too many clubs IMO see their underage set-up as a hindrance. The easiest to influence in society are the young. Taking Pats as an example their must be 40 schoolboy clubs on their doorstep, how many of these clubs have they approached and given free tickets to the kids and free accompanying adults tickets? Take a short term loss to get these kids involved and in love with EL football. Players should be coaching in these local clubs.

There is so much PR that could be achieved by visiting clubs. IMO ads wont work and are simply a waste of money. There is the tickets that you get with the summer soccer schools but I reckon if a schoolboy club was offered 200 tickets for kids and coaches it would be taken up much quicker.

There is no easy answer but the attacks on the "barstoolers" wont do anything for the EL. Whether people like it or not the EPL is here to stay and popular. But as in England the where the lower league and non-league clubs are supported as 2nd team by a lot of EPL supporters this is a reality in the EL also and should be abused by arranging friendlies against such opposition where possible instead of resenting the "barstoolers" that would turn up.

Maybe this is being done/tried but as an adminstrator/manager with a local club in Dublin we have never been approached

anyway just my tupence ...................

[micls]

While I can see why Europe and the CL group stages are the holy grail, they arent the be all and end all.

Football isnt just about being successful in Europe, or being considered a top team in Europe(will never happen). Anyone who will only support a team within those conditions isnt a football fan, they are an event junkie.

There are leagues the world over which will never consistently be int he CL or be 'top teams'. But thats not what football is about.

Football is about passion and pride in you locality, in your team. Greenforever Id expect you would get this, as why would you support the Irish National team otherwise?

Its about passion, camaraderie and a belief in your local team.

We all want bigger crowds, better stadiums etc etc. But not if the price we have to pay is half of us not having our local teams anymore, with them being dumped so that 4/5 can suddenly become good.

If people dont want to come to games they cant be forced, as frustrating as it is. But lets be honest here, it's their loss. They're missing out on what it really is to be a football fan, through the good and the bad. So do what we can, but all the while, lets just enjoy what we have, cos its a hell of a lot better than some alternatives.

[TonyD]

While I can see why Europe and the CL group stages are the holy grail, they arent the be all and end all.

Football isnt just about being successful in Europe, or being considered a top team in Europe(will never happen). Anyone who will only support a team within those conditions isnt a football fan, they are an event junkie.

There are leagues the world over which will never consistently be int he CL or be 'top teams'. But thats not what football is about.

Football is about passion and pride in you locality, in your team. Greenforever Id expect you would get this, as why would you support the Irish National team otherwise?

Its about passion, camaraderie and a belief in your local team.

We all want bigger crowds, better stadiums etc etc. But not if the price we have to pay is half of us not having our local teams anymore, with them being dumped so that 4/5 can suddenly become good.

If people dont want to come to games they cant be forced, as frustrating as it is. But lets be honest here, it's their loss. They're missing out on what it really is to be a football fan, through the good and the bad. So do what we can, but all the while, lets just enjoy what we have, cos its a hell of a lot better than some alternatives.

Hear Hear. See, someone gets it.

[Greenforever]

Should be through the clubs - I wouldn't restrict to just League of Ireland clubs myself.


I wouldn't restrict distribution to League of Ireland clubs, but yes, priority should be given to people who commit to Irish football all year round, not just a few games a year. A block booker for 10 years would only barely be coming up to a couple of seasons worth of games compared to an LoI season ticket holder.

Tickets pre block booking used to be distributed through clubs, and suprise surprise, a hell of a lot of tickets never paid for.

The block booking scheme is a massive success and results in huge revenue for the FAI which filters through to the EL and lower levels.

You're assuming all block bookers have no other interest in the game, most block bookers I know, have some kind of involvement weather playing, managing, or supporting a club.

And why should an LOI fan get better treatment than say a fan of a LSL team etc.

[Greenforever]

Midweek games against unglamorous teams and huge travelling bills. It's a recipe for bankruptcy.


Is that the El or the champions league qualifying rounds your talking about? For a lot if people that is what you have just described.

[Greenforever]

While I can see why Europe and the CL group stages are the holy grail, they arent the be all and end all.

Football isnt just about being successful in Europe, or being considered a top team in Europe(will never happen). Anyone who will only support a team within those conditions isnt a football fan, they are an event junkie. .

I beg to disagree, if I am going to travel the lenght of the country supporting a team I expect more, if Im not getting it I will settle with supporting my local club which for me would be a DDSL club.

As a matter of Interest does any posters know who were the FAI club of the year this year? I would far prefer to support a club with this commitment than an EL club and that is my perogotative and doesnt make me any less of a fan in my eyes.

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Football is about passion and pride in you locality, in your team. Greenforever Id expect you would get this, as why would you support the Irish National team otherwise? .

As previously posted I can have more pride in my local team, as I know the players, the parents, the coaches etc, etc, and thats what gives me most satisfaction.

The national team I support because I can identify with it and because of the love for my country.


ts about passion, camaraderie and a belief in your local team.

We all want bigger crowds, better stadiums etc etc. But not if the price we have to pay is half of us not having our local teams anymore, with them being dumped so that 4/5 can suddenly become good.

If people dont want to come to games they cant be forced, as frustrating as it is. But lets be honest here, it's their loss. They're missing out on what it really is to be a football fan, through the good and the bad. So do what we can, but all the while, lets just enjoy what we have, cos its a hell of a lot better than some alternatives.

What is the definition of your local team? From most posters it has to be your local EL team, well sorry if Im going to support highly paid players I expect far more, and if it's the structures that are fault so be it, I'll quite happily stay with a lower level, but which I can identify with more.

End of rant from an event junkie and the club of the year St Joeys Boys, Sallynoggin. (I've no involvement with them but the height of respect for them)

[Lamper.sffc]

Greenforever. You are fighting a loosing battle. I dont see any real ideas coming from people to improve what we have( lost count of how many times you asked for their ideas)
Its mainly just negativity from most(you know who you are) not all i know.

This is the cancer in the el, until this atitude changes our league will stay the same. :(
If we want more bums on seats we need to let people know that its alright to support a team abroad but why not support an el team also.
Slagging people off and generally being negative doesnt help or encourage new fans.
I sometimes think these people dont want new fans at their clubs they want it all for themselves just so they can say, " look at us we are the true supporters we brave it out when others wont" they wont feel that way if there was too many fans.

[placid casual]

with respect i think the "negativity" you sense is borne out of frustration from EL fans .
We all want more people to come through the turnstiles but these people wont turn up, except when a team they watch on tv turns up.
its not "supporting" in the classic sense of the word but more about an evenings entertainment for them. they dont have the culture of following football but still reagrd themselves as supporters. they arent. they are consumers.

[Lamper.sffc]

with respect i think the "negativity" you sense is borne out of frustration from EL fans .
We all want more people to come through the turnstiles but these people wont turn up, except when a team they watch on tv turns up.
its not "supporting" in the classic sense of the word but more about an evenings entertainment for them. they dont have the culture of following football but still reagrd themselves as supporters. they arent. they are consumers.

Fair point. But you have to agree that slating these people is not going to encourage them to come to a match. It will do the opposite.

[Greenforever]

Greenforever. You are fighting a loosing battle. I dont see any real ideas coming from people to improve what we have( lost count of how many times you asked for their ideas)
Its mainly just negativity from most(you know who you are) not all i know.

This is the cancer in the el, until this atitude changes our league will stay the same. :(
If we want more bums on seats we need to let people know that its alright to support a team abroad but why not support an el team also.
Slagging people off and generally being negative doesnt help or encourage new fans.
I sometimes think these people dont want new fans at their clubs they want it all for themselves just so they can say, " look at us we are the true supporters we brave it out when others wont" they wont feel that way if there was too many fans.


At last a sensible post, at least the clubs aren't as negative as a lot of the posters on this thread.

It reminds me of Irish trips away such as the next three games, "these are the real supporters" is what you'll hear, I hate the easy trips, Paris, Stuttgart etc. My answer is always would the team prefer to have 40,000 supporters behind them than 400. If i'm going to support the team then surely I want as many suporters as possible to create as good an athmosphere as possible.

That said Oslo with all 200 -300 of us will be great crack:D

[Lamper.sffc]

Sport is about enjoyment, no matter what level of participation you choose to have.