Drogs vs Kiev the match part

[barney]

Course he does. But his conclusion drawn from this (that all this back patting is ridiculous, and that the result wasn't a good one) is nonsense.


Yeah it is ridiculous to say the result wasn't a good one. Shame I never said that.

[pineapple stu]

Is that what I said?

You said -


When people say they don't watch the EL because it isn't proper football, last night proved their argument.

I'm equating that with


So because Drogheda were beaten by a vastly superior side, we should all give up the ghost?

Feel free to give an alternate conclusion for me to derive.

[TonyD]

The eL is struggling for attendances. We can bury our heads in the sand and say 'well people are idiots for not going'/'they are barstoolers and don't know anything' but that simply isn't true. The level of football is very, very poor. Yes the atmosphere of live football is great and following your team from your town cannot be replaced by anything else but some people don't really want that from their football; they want a bit of quality as well as something they can identify with. Hence the 'barstooler' phenomenon.


Barney, you may have a point in some respects, and some people have been a tad overly defensive. But you're wrong on this point in my opinion. I've always held that the poor attendances at local games have little or nothing to do with the quality of football on offer. For example, do you think if Kiev were playing in Dalymount every week they'd get bigger crowds than Bohs currently do for their home games ? I'm pretty certain they wouldn't, and everyone here would readily acknowledge that Kiev are far superior to any LOI side. On the game itself I'd also give Drogs a bit more credit for at least making it a competitive game for Kiev. Yeah, they could have lost by more, but they were by no means embarressed against a team with far more resources, and that will always be the bottom line. Clubs with money will be of a higher standard than those with relatively little. In those circumstances. It may not be anything to throw street parties about, but it is progress.

[barney]

You said -



I'm equating that with



Feel free to give an alternate conclusion for me to derive.

I was pointing out that for those who don't watch football for the local association and plump instead for quality football coupled with something they can identify with, Wednesday night was justification for their preference. How often do you read a post on here saying "I can't understand why anyone would support an English club". Well this is why. Kiev (and I know they aren't English) were playing a different game to Drogheda the other night.

Personally, I love following my local team but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and say I have no idea how anyone wouldn't follow their local team first. If we want to fix the problem, or go part of the way to fixing it, then we need to acknowledge it. I certainly don't advocate giving up.

I'm talking stuff like five yard passes and some decent movement. That's pretty simple stuff with the right coaching. Were Drogheda ever going to match Kiev technically? No. Were they ever going to beat them? No. Was the result, in isolation, a bad one? No. Should, and could, they strive to improve the way that they play? Yes. Have they got the ability to do things in a more clever and intelligent manner? Yes.

My criticisms aren't of Drogheda specifically, they are of the eircom League in general. Wedenesday just happened to be a prime example of where we are going wrong. So too was the bloke directing the Shamrock Rovers kids to boot the ball long at every opportunity at Richmond Park.

[sadloserkid]

On a different topic how in God's name did Ollie Cahill win MOTM. Now I'll concede that I only saw the second half and he may have looked like the second coming of Pele in the first but all he did in the 45 minutes I watched he did nothing but deliever rubbish crosses, give possession away and get caught in possession. I thought he, more than most, was like an extra attacker for the Ukranians when they were turning the screw because he gave possession away so cheaply.

[pineapple stu]

I was pointing out that for those who don't watch football for the local association and plump instead for quality football coupled with something they can identify with, Wednesday night was justification for their preference.
Wednesday wasn't their justification no more than any other game of local ball. People like that can make up excuses at the drop of a hat.

[OneRedArmy]

Barney, the point you've raised about the lack of technical skills is a valid one, but its one that could be equally argued about the Premiership and that doesn't stop people watching that!

British, Irish (and some other European countries like Germany spring to mind) have from underage level, long favoured size and strength over speed, technical accuracy and footballing vision.

I'm calling red herring....

[barney]

Barney, you may have a point in some respects, and some people have been a tad overly defensive. But you're wrong on this point in my opinion. I've always held that the poor attendances at local games have little or nothing to do with the quality of football on offer. For example, do you think if Kiev were playing in Dalymount every week they'd get bigger crowds than Bohs currently do for their home games ? I'm pretty certain they wouldn't, and everyone here would readily acknowledge that Kiev are far superior to any LOI side. On the game itself I'd also give Drogs a bit more credit for at least making it a competitive game for Kiev. Yeah, they could have lost by more, but they were by no means embarressed against a team with far more resources, and that will always be the bottom line. Clubs with money will be of a higher standard than those with relatively little. In those circumstances. It may not be anything to throw street parties about, but it is progress.

You're right to an extent here. A lot of people I know, barstoolers, love a bandwagon to jump on and are event junkies. Similarly a lot of barstoolers I know have a great knowledge of the game and know good football when they see it. One of my mates in particular, a Man U fan who never goes to EL matches, has an absolutely fantastic grasp of the game.

Would attendances increase if, in isolation, the quality of football improves? Not by any great amount. But as the quality of football improves, the teams will do better, receive more media attention, and it'll be a snowball effect that'll bring in more supporters. It's very, very long term and no chance of it happening overnight. Facilities also need to improve considerably but when I see/hear of the new stadiums being built for Drogs, Bohs and Rovers, the new stand at the RSC and when I see the magnificent work Mick Wallace is doing at Wexford (an absolutely wonderful facility), I think we are on the right road in that respect.

But if we continue to do things as we are on the field, then things will remain the same for the most part. If we continue to just scratch our heads and say 'I can't understand people who support foreign teams' we are doomed.

[barney]

Wednesday wasn't their justification no more than any other game of local ball. People like that can make up excuses at the drop of a hat.


Wednesday night was a high profile game on RTE. Barstoolers, normally not exposed to the eL, will have watched it and anyone with a grasp of the game will have seen how far behind the eL is.

Also when you place an eL team on the pitch with a side like Kiev the point becomes more pronounced than when you have two local teams playing each other.

[pineapple stu]

No more or less than previous years.

Shels fared well against Depor and barstoolers didn't care. Drogs didn't fare as well against Kiev; the barstoolers still won't care.

[barney]

Barney, the point you've raised about the lack of technical skills is a valid one, but its one that could be equally argued about the Premiership and that doesn't stop people watching that!

British, Irish (and some other European countries like Germany spring to mind) have from underage level, long favoured size and strength over speed, technical accuracy and footballing vision.

I'm calling red herring....

Spurs played Pats last year. Spurs finished 11th in the Premiership last season (albeit that was somewhat of a false position). Spurs had some journeymen out on the pitch (Antony Gardner, Danny Murphy etc.). They toyed with Pats. I spoke to a Pats player outside Richmond after and his words in response to 'well what was that like' was 'they were playing a different game than us.'

[TonyD]

Would attendances increase if, in isolation, the quality of football improves? Not by any great amount. But as the quality of football improves, the teams will do better, receive more media attention, and it'll be a snowball effect that'll bring in more supporters. It's very, very long term and no chance of it happening overnight. Facilities also need to improve considerably but when I see/hear of the new stadiums being built for Drogs, Bohs and Rovers, the new stand at the RSC and when I see the magnificent work Mick Wallace is doing at Wexford (an absolutely wonderful facility), I think we are on the right road in that respect.



I'd argue that the quality is improving. I'm not saying there isn't still a fair bit to go, but some of the football being played in the league now is much better than it was ten years ago. Attendances haven't increased proportionatley though. What attracts people (for the most part) is glamour, not quality.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think you're making any sort of point that people haven't known since the beginning of the league, to be honest. Much better teams than ours are much better than us - imagine that! Barstoolers don't care, although they'll use it as a handy excuse.

[barney]

No more or less than previous years.

Shels fared well against Depor and barstoolers didn't care. Drogs didn't fare as well against Kiev; the barstoolers still won't care.

They did care. I didn't see that game, was away at the time, but I had texts and emails from barstoolers telling me about how well Shels had done to draw with Deportivo.

Mates of mine who follow English football still talk about the 0-0 at Lansdowne.

[pineapple stu]

And where are they now?

They can talk about it every now and again; that's no good to the league. By "caring", I mean actually deciding to support Shels regularly.

[barney]

I don't think you're making any sort of point that people haven't known since the beginning of the league, to be honest. Much better teams than ours are much better than us - imagine that! Barstoolers don't care, although they'll use it as a handy excuse.

Again, you're missing my point. We can improve the situation if we coach our players to do the basics of football properly. Will it make us better than them? Probably not but we can do much better than we are doing.

What should we do, just give up the ghost an accept that we will never compete properly?

[barney]

And where are they now?

They can talk about it every now and again; that's no good to the league. By "caring", I mean actually deciding to support Shels regularly.


Sustained 'success' rather than one-off results might make that happen. Sustained 'success' (relative or otherwise) will only happen if we change the way we do things.

We need to give people a reason to care about the league not just hope that they'll do it off their own bat.

[pineapple stu]

People like that can make up excuses at the drop of a hat.
See?
...

[OneRedArmy]

Spurs played Pats last year. Spurs finished 11th in the Premiership last season (albeit that was somewhat of a false position). Spurs had some journeymen out on the pitch (Antony Gardner, Danny Murphy etc.). They toyed with Pats. I spoke to a Pats player outside Richmond after and his words in response to 'well what was that like' was 'they were playing a different game than us.'That wasn't your point though. Your point was about skill and technical ability, strategy and application, specifically in relation to Kiev.

Did you watch the Euros? There was a reason the English and Irish teams weren't there. Technically we are way, way behind. English football is one big game of kick and rush. Foreign imports both of players and coaches are narrowing the gap, but the gap is still there.

But to ascribe people not following the EL due to the quality of the football is giving the barstoolers a huge amount more credit than they deserve.

Quit when you're behind.

[barney]

See?
...


See what?

[Sheridan]

Spurs played Pats last year. Spurs finished 11th in the Premiership last season (albeit that was somewhat of a false position). Spurs had some journeymen out on the pitch (Antony Gardner, Danny Murphy etc.). They toyed with Pats. I spoke to a Pats player outside Richmond after and his words in response to 'well what was that like' was 'they were playing a different game than us.'

LOL. I know it's a big claim, but this might be your most stupid post yet. Would this be the game Spurs won 1-0 (I think) after Pat's made about fifteen substitutions and finished with half their 21s on the field?

[barney]

That wasn't your point though. Your point was about skill and technical ability, strategy and application, specifically in relation to Kiev.

Did you watch the Euros? There was a reason the English and Irish teams weren't there. Technically we are way, way behind. English football is one big game of kick and rush. Foreign imports both of players and coaches are narrowing the gap, but the gap is still there.

But to ascribe people not following the EL due to the quality of the football is giving the barstoolers a huge amount more credit than they deserve.

Quit when you're behind.

Behind? I think not.

The English sides are far more gifted than the el sides. Even if you go down as far as Wigan and the likes.

Every 15-20 years Engand fail to qualify for a major tournament. It's a cyclical thing. They appointed the wrong man in Steve McLaren, that's why they didn't make the Euros. Likewise in 1994 when they didn't qualify it was because they had the wrong man at the helm. They stuck by Ramsay too long and missed out on 1974 and also missed Euro '84.

England will qualify for the next tournament, they were in the last 8 of WC '86, the semis of WC 90, quarters of WC 02 and the quarters in 06. It's safe to say that they, historically, are the 5th to 8th best in the world. Not bad for a side that's 'technically way, way behind'. Being technically good is not the result of some magic formula. It's doing the simple things right.

English football is not one big game of kick and rush. That's a myth. As I've said, an eL player told me that people like Anthony Gardner (now Hull) and Danny Murphy (now Fulham) were on a different planet to the eL players.

As I've also said earlier in this thread, I don't believe barstoolers necessarily recognise quality football when they see it, but they recognise success and bandwagons and one begets the other.

[barney]

LOL. I know it's a big claim, but this might be your most stupid post yet. Would this be the game Spurs won 1-0 (I think) after Pat's made about fifteen substitutions and finished with half their 21s on the field?

I'm quoting a Pat's player directly. Can't see how that's stupid. Good to see your ability to argue stops at petty insults though.

Which half of this side were U21s?
Ryan (Clarke h/t), A Murphy, Rogers (C Foley h/t - S Quigley 57), Paisley (Haverty 83), Maguire, Gibson, Brennan (Frost h/t), M Keane (M Foley 70), M Quigley (Guy h/t), Barker (Murphy 70), Kirby (Mulcahy h/t).

[bennocelt]

First ten minutes it was obvious that Drogheda were 5 yards too deep. Kiev's sweeper was an out for them every time they had the ball because Zayed was never near him. The number 5, in front of the defence, also had acres of space every time he got the ball. Doolin did nothing till half time.

Watching Kiev making angles for passes, have two options for a pass and attacking with more than one option at a time showed the eL up for what it is. The prime example for me was that every time Kiev attacked they had a man hugging the touchline, a player coming short at the edge of the box and one in behind. They dragged Drogheda's defence all over the place and had two to three options each time.

In contrast, Hughes picked a ball up in a good position in their half at one stage in the second half and every Drogs player charged for the box like schoolboys. Box was crowded. The obvious ball played in was easily dealt with. That was just one example of the brainless football they played. There were countless more.

We aren't talking rocket science here lads, all it takes is a couple of players to move a couple of yards into a position to receive a ball with some sort of idea where he going to play a five, ten yard pass. Drogs had no idea what they were at for the most part.

If they were going to be that clueless, they should have played five yards higher up the pitch, bombarded Kiev with long balls and hoped to turn them or pick up the second ball.
.

If only football was that simple:rolleyes:
So with you as gaffer drogheda would have won then?

[Dodge]

I'm quoting a Pat's player directly. Can't see how that's stupid. Good to see your ability to argue stops at petty insults though.

Which half of this side were U21s?
Ryan (Clarke h/t), A Murphy, Rogers (C Foley h/t - S Quigley 57), Paisley (Haverty 83), Maguire, Gibson, Brennan (Frost h/t), M Keane (M Foley 70), M Quigley (Guy h/t), Barker (Murphy 70), Kirby (Mulcahy h/t).
Of that side the following are still with the club; Ryan, Rogers, Paisley, Haverty (19), Brennan, M Quigley, R Guy and Kirby. Of those only Paisley, Quigley and Guy are first choice. The players released wouldn't get near our first team.

[barney]

If only football was that simple:rolleyes:
So with you as gaffer drogheda would have won then?


Nope, never said that. I'm not that naive. Again, not once did I say Drogs coulda, shoulda, woulda won. Just think they could do things better. Not with me as a manager. If I was that talented I wouldn't be flipping burgers in McDonalds.

[barney]

Of that side the following are still with the club; Ryan, Rogers, Paisley, Haverty (19), Brennan, M Quigley, R Guy and Kirby. Of those only Paisley, Quigley and Guy are first choice. The players released wouldn't get near our first team.

That wasn't the point. It was close to their first team at the time; not a bunch of Under 21s.

[paul_oshea]

That wasn't your point though. Your point was about skill and technical ability, strategy and application, specifically in relation to Kiev.

Did you watch the Euros? There was a reason the English and Irish teams weren't there. Technically we are way, way behind. English football is one big game of kick and rush. Foreign imports both of players and coaches are narrowing the gap, but the gap is still there.

But to ascribe people not following the EL due to the quality of the football is giving the barstoolers a huge amount more credit than they deserve.

Quit when you're behind.

He isn't behind. And whats this Barstoolers credit deserve stuff about, why be an antagonist sitting in your bubble. Barney, great dose of realism from yourself there. As an outsider looking in, I can see exactly where you are coming from, I'm not uber sensitive to either party, but I know that things need to change from both sides. The one thing I will add in relation to Irish people as a whole (excluding the GAA for some reason affinity to local parish etc maybe) they don't seem to have a staying power to anything, a one off is fine, hence why ppl support English teams as it doesn't mean going to watch a game every week. Even in GAA its only teh die-hards (like the EL die hards) that go to games every week. I think the Irish public are a lot like the american public when it comes to attending sport events, its a day out/spectacle/event rather than following your team, much like a music event/going to see a band, its a once off thing, but no one would go to see the same band every single week except again the diehard fans.

[Dodge]

paul, there's little to argue there, but the problem is that thats still apoxy excuse not to be a regular football fan. There is no reson why irish people should be like this (and even you contradicted your own point about the GAA)

And barney general point about caoching is true too, but the same is true of England and it dosen't stop the vast majority of people claiming allegiance to their poorly coached teams.

The facts are that until Irish people support Irish teams, we'll never have enough money to be able to do anything about it. Drogheda's defeat to Kiev, and all the friendlies in the world, isn't down to anyone but the Irish public for not supporting the best football teams in the country. I've no real problem with that, until the ***** turn around and say thats why they don't support the league. if you did support the league, we wouldn't have consistently bad results.

And I'll say it agin, I don't really care if people don't get it. Thats their tough ****e, the vast majority of people who claim to be football fans in ireland have absolutely no clue about the game.

BTW we're on course for 27th spot next year in europe, or exactly the half way mark in UEFA.

[OneRedArmy]

He isn't behind. And whats this Barstoolers credit deserve stuff about, why be an antagonist sitting in your bubble. Barney, great dose of realism from yourself there. As an outsider looking in, I can see exactly where you are coming from, I'm not uber sensitive to either party, but I know that things need to change from both sides. The one thing I will add in relation to Irish people as a whole (excluding the GAA for some reason affinity to local parish etc maybe) they don't seem to have a staying power to anything, a one off is fine, hence why ppl support English teams as it doesn't mean going to watch a game every week. Even in GAA its only teh die-hards (like the EL die hards) that go to games every week. I think the Irish public are a lot like the american public when it comes to attending sport events, its a day out/spectacle/event rather than following your team, much like a music event/going to see a band, its a once off thing, but no one would go to see the same band every single week except again the diehard fans.Whats this got to do with anything, much less the standard of football in the EL?

Paul, not for the first time, you're out of your depth.

[bigmac]

The English sides are far more gifted than the el sides. Even if you go down as far as Wigan and the likes.


That league is at a far higher level to LOI, so there's no point comparing it. Saying that premier league players are much better than LOI players tells you nothing about the technical ability of English players as a whole - had Robbie Keane been playing they'd have said the same about him I'm sure. There are also almost 340 foreign players in the premier league - that's an average of 17 per team!
The fact of the matter is that, technically, English players are way behind players from France, Spain, Holland and most of the other major footballing nations. That's not just my opinion by the way, that's the opinion of Trevor Brooking and plenty of other people. It's pretty indicative that the top 4 teams in the premier league would barely have 10 English players in their respective starting elevens.

There's a lot of sensible stuff on this thread - am i in the right place here?

[paul_oshea]

paul, there's little to argue there, but the problem is that thats still apoxy excuse not to be a regular football fan. There is no reson why irish people should be like this (and even you contradicted your own point about the GAA)

And barney general point about caoching is true too, but the same is true of England and it dosen't stop the vast majority of people claiming allegiance to their poorly coached teams.

The facts are that until Irish people support Irish teams, we'll never have enough money to be able to do anything about it. Drogheda's defeat to Kiev, and all the friendlies in the world, isn't down to anyone but the Irish public for not supporting the best football teams in the country. I've no real problem with that, until the ***** turn around and say thats why they don't support the league. if you did support the league, we wouldn't have consistently bad results.

And I'll say it agin, I don't really care if people don't get it. Thats their tough ****e, the vast majority of people who claim to be football fans in ireland have absolutely no clue about the game.

BTW we're on course for 27th spot next year in europe, or exactly the half way mark in UEFA.

Good news on the last line.

I realised I somewhat contradicted myself after posting but left it there. Its not a cop out or a fair excuse but it appears to be the irish psyche, except for intercounty matches through qualifiers have I found that people will sustain the interest and support weekly as oppossed to any other sporting event in this country. Somewhat unfairly I put in the context of EL and GAA Clubs not counties, which isn't a fair reflection on the support base either, in fact the EL should get more, but you still do get a lot of diehards that go to club games around the country, on a whole though its still limited.

ORA, get the boat, the point I was making refered directly to Barneys opinion/point on barstoolers. WHy bother coming on throwing in 2 lines here and there if you can't argue the point at hand. Just stay out then. Read from the start of Barneys input if you still don't know what I am on about. I never mentioned anything to do with coaching, neither did Barney not mention barstoolers.

[TheFingallian]

I was going to start up a new thread there but felt it would be better just to revive this one. Just watching Dynamo Kiev playing in the UEFA Cup semis on Setanta Ireland.

Doesn't seem all that long ago Drogheda were giving them a good game. They can feel extra proud of their efforts looking at where Kiev have gotten to since.

[Cosmo]

I was going to start up a new thread there but felt it would be better just to revive this one. Just watching Dynamo Kiev playing in the UEFA Cup semis on Setanta Ireland.

Doesn't seem all that long ago Drogheda were giving them a good game. They can feel extra proud of their efforts looking at where Kiev have gotten to since.

A couple of us actually went to their match in the emirates against arsenal in the group stages!!! (and I have to admit I couldnt get out of me head 'this couldve been us' :()

Seems like a lifetime ago now though!!

[HarpoJoyce]

I was going to resurrect one of last years co-efficient threads but this should do.

Dynamo Kyiv's defeat in the semis is a reminder of the different indicators of performance within the European competitions.

How far a team got?
Who they beat along the way?
Who their eventually conquerors are?
How far those conquerors got?

As a cup competition this allows a team to draw away from home or lose at home and still progress without anyone (usually outside the club) getting apolectic about the co-efficient.