All Ireland League

[avvenalaf]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4364999.ece

Worth a read. I think it's the way forward.

[Only1Rovers]

Interesting.

I don't know how the politics of the FAI/IFA works but should the clubs mentioned want to join what is stopping them? Are they contracted to the Eircom League and its Northern counterpart?

In relation to Rovers - would the teams from smaller population catchment areas such as Rovers have the opportunity to get promoted? From a business point of view I can understand the decision to choses teams such as Limerick and Galway because technically they could draw larger crowds then say Harps/Rovers etc. however, if the League was to hypothetically start August of next year where would the funding come from for Galway and Limerick and the Irish League teams to build a team that would challenge the Bohs and Drogs?

Surely if Rovers were given the chance to join we would pull as big a crowd as Galway, plus we have the core of a team which can compete with the big boys.

Sligo Rovers would apply to a catchment of close to 80 thousand people if you include the surrounding counties, surly sufficient numbers to justify a club in the new league.

[Fivesilver]

Wouldn't you think the recent "adjustment" of Galway's famous business model would be a lesson to people who think success in football can all be explained and accurately predicted by spreadsheets?

This idea that somehow it would help smaller teams to improve by playing against each other every week is a very poor smokescreen for planning to put them out of the picture completely. It always seems that in Ireland a guy in an expensive suit with a persuasive line in business-speak can convince people to swallow anything.

Without a shadow of a doubt, this plan as currently constituted would permanently put an end to Sligo Rovers as a top-flight team more surely than any financial crisis.

[Rovers Maniac]

Totally agree Fivesilver it would end up putting us out of business and all because maybe a team like Limerick or Galway came from a bigger population centre. Sure Limerick FC were let die by the FAI but i never heard a massive out cry by the fans either. We have probably the 4th highest crowd figures this year and are club has been around for 80 years so the town and county even those it small in terms of population it has shown that people get behind the club and hopefully that will continue.

I am honestly not to woried over something like this as it is a pile of rubbish and Linfield have said time and time again they are not interested in an AIL and without them it is unworkable.

[avvenalaf]

I'm not sure that the link showed all the article as it is the online version but the plan is that the league would operate under license from IFA and FAI thereby neatly sidestepping any political problem. Platinum would run the league. Two Charmion's league and two UEFA cup places to be provided by both associations. There would be mo relegation for first two seasons and thereafter the winners of the Irish league and lOI would play off for the one promotional spot caused by relegation. Not true that Linfield are anti as senior DIP figures, as well as our Dept of Sports are keen on the idea. This WILL happen and all that is stalling progress at the moment is the fact that Delaney won't talk to Drury because he was Kerr's agent at the time of the bust up. Now Drury is very well connected in the press and Indo had a right cut at FAI today over the funding of Lansdowne Road, suggesting that the deveolpment is in jeopardy because FAI have not got the money. Bull****, as FAI have credit lines in place specifically for this project but it is no co-
incidence that the **** is being stirred in the week of the FAI agm in Castlebar.

This project would be good news for Rovers because....
1. It would give the club three seasons to get house in order to make a shot at promotion.
1. The whole idea call for the return of all leagues to winter soccer.

[Redie]

I have to say avvenalaf I'm amazed you think this is a good idea.

[red bellied]

I would be for the idea if it was done fairly, the eight top teams from the LOI plus four from the North. No relegation or promotion for three seasons is plain daft. So what kind of interest would this generate in Rovers knowing that they were going to be stuck in what would be the new first division for three seasons :eek:. I think we have been there before.

[avvenalaf]

We were stuck in that division for five years when there was two promotional places available.

Why should anyone be surprised that i think this is a good idea ?????????

[red_away]

Avvenalaf - the senility has definitely set in!

We would dissappear into the ether - look at the model in england or scotland this model favours the big clubs and they dont want us!

The EPL has dissassociated itself from the lower divisions and only came in for the championship TV when they realised that its the 4th biggest league in europe and still the clubs there struggle as they were not on the original gravy train.

Whats drury's angle.....let me guess..the love of the game?

Definite no from me to this proposal!

[Fivesilver]

There would be mo relegation for first two seasons and thereafter the winners of the Irish league and lOI would play off for the one promotional spot caused by relegation.

Says it all. Set up your private members club, then give them a few years of constant big gates and high-level competition to widen the gap and insulate against any of the non-invited clubs ever making serious inroads. It's painfully clear, if you'd just open your eyes, that the whole idea of this is to protect Galway, Limerick and Shams' place in the club, particularly after what's happened with Galway in the past couple of seasons. Given a couple of seaons of shoring them up and undermining the teams down below, they'd most likely be safe.
No relegation? Give me a break.



Drury is very well connected in the press and Indo had a right cut at FAI today

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this? The Indo having a go quite obviously not because of anything it figured out for itself, but because it's being spoonfed material by Drury. There's a long-established tradition of impressionable hacks getting starry-eyed over a smooth operator schmoozing and flattering them, and serving his agenda. It seems to me, though, that it works by extension with members of the public as well.

[avvenalaf]

There's a long-established tradition of impressionable hacks getting starry-eyed over a smooth operator schmoozing and flattering them, and serving his agenda.

Now, that's enough about Sean Connor :)

Disappearing into the ether ???????

Pardon me, but where exactly are we going when we need 130k by the end of August to SURVIVE in any shape or form. This is a realistic look at the future of Irish football and if we are good enough and well enough managed off the field we can sup at the top table in the fullness of time. If not, well at least we will compete at a level where we can compete and stop fooling ourselves about being a big club (or a club bankrolled by 'developers').

There is an aroma of coffee wafting through the air for anyone who wishes to wake up and smell it.

[Only1Rovers]

I like the idea of the league, particularly with Rovers in it. However, if it was to go ahead as laid out in the Sunday Times article and Rovers could not get into it for at least two seasons, it would have a detrimental effect on the club.

If the league was launched with such large amounts of prize money, the sponsorship would increase massively for those clubs involved. Rovers would continue to struggle to raise funds. If Rovers did get promoted to the league we would find ourselves even further behind the "big" clubs than ever before.

As they would have a two year advantage on us,

Those "lesser" clubs would be like fish out of water in the new league when they would be promoted, it would be a missive struggle for them to compete with the clubs who have become established.

It would be the same as the English Premier league the teams that come up go straight back down, more than likely.

[avvenalaf]

But of course, on the other hand, the whole pack of cards could be about to collapse anyway. From the Times today.............

Half the clubs in the top four divisions are significantly behind in payments to the taxman and the Football League is discussing ways to combat the problem. About 46 clubs, including some in the Barclays Premier League, owe £15 million in tax that should have been paid on players' salaries, including national insurance. Some of the debts stretch back nearly two years, forcing Revenue & Customs to try to agree repayment schemes. Arrears could force a club into administration' - The Times.

[Fivesilver]

There is an aroma of coffee wafting through the air for anyone who wishes to wake up and smell it.


we can sup at the top table in the fullness of time...


Make sure you check the label next time you're down the shop - I reckon you've been hammering away at the decaf all week. :p

[red bellied]

There's a long-established tradition of impressionable hacks getting starry-eyed over a smooth operator schmoozing and flattering them, and serving his agenda.

Now, that's enough about Sean Connor :)

Disappearing into the ether ???????

Pardon me, but where exactly are we going when we need 130k by the end of August to SURVIVE in any shape or form. This is a realistic look at the future of Irish football and if we are good enough and well enough managed off the field we can sup at the top table in the fullness of time. If not, well at least we will compete at a level where we can compete and stop fooling ourselves about being a big club (or a club bankrolled by 'developers').

There is an aroma of coffee wafting through the air for anyone who wishes to wake up and smell it.


There no big clubs in Irish football. Attendances predict how big a club are. There are some clubs who seem to have endless cash and these should be known as the money clubs not the big clubs.

They had enough practice trying to steady the ship with fve years in the first division. Imagine having to go back there for a few seasons and effectively having nothing to play for. The interest would be zero probably just locals going through the motions for two seasons if they managed to last that long.
The gap would widen with the money is on offer in the proposed AIL just like the Premiership in England with promoted clubs getting relegated every season.

[akearins]

lads from what I hear this is dead in the water,FAI couldnt sanction it as it would be againt the policy of FAI who have a duty to all clubs,
Also like the proposal that platimum take a 10% of incomes

[Redie]

Half the clubs in the top four divisions are significantly behind in payments to the taxman and the Football League is discussing ways to combat the problem. About 46 clubs, including some in the Barclays Premier League, owe £15 million in tax that should have been paid on players' salaries, including national insurance. Some of the debts stretch back nearly two years, forcing Revenue & Customs to try to agree repayment schemes. Arrears could force a club into administration' - The Times.

And in the same breath it is reported that Chelsea are about to offer 150 million for Kaka

[avvenalaf]

lads from what I hear this is dead in the water,FAI couldnt sanction it as it would be againt the policy of FAI who have a duty to all clubs,
Also like the proposal that platimum take a 10% of incomes

Trust me, Alan, this is far from dead in the water. This Drury guy is one serious dude and if they succeed in shifting Delaney................

[Only1Rovers]

lads from what I hear this is dead in the water,FAI couldnt sanction it as it would be againt the policy of FAI who have a duty to all clubs,
Also like the proposal that platimum take a 10% of incomes

One of the most worrying statements in the Sunday Times article is:
the shocking complexion of the senior domestic game is not on the agenda of the FAI's AGM

The AGM is being held in Castlebar this week.

Where is the duty to the clubs in that? It is expected Cork City Will raise the issue under other business.

It has been rumored that Akaga, the owners of Cork City are thinking off offloading the club.

Clubs in trouble...us, Harps, Galway, Waterford, Cobh.

Trapattoni will be the main attraction at the AGM. I for one have a greater interest in the League of Ireland and the promotion and development of young Irish players from home at home. Sure, its nice to see the Republic do well but what about the grass roots?

Currently I don't have confidence in the FAI's ability to support clubs such as us.

[avvenalaf]

Looks like this pot is beginning to simmer nicely.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2008/0722/1216627320098.html

[Fivesilver]

Simmer away - anyone who thinks that this would do anything remotely beneficial for Sligo Rovers wants their head tested.

For all the talk and plans, the simple principle remains that a team should only be in the division they're in based on results. Now a handful of Irish clubs want to scrap that principle in favour of an invite-only "elite" league, confident that most Irish people will tip the cap to the "big man" who appears to have all the answers (ie money and political connections).

This idea that the league is being ruined by clubs like Rovers not being able to sustain full-time professionalism is a joke. Pat's, Bohs, Cork and the like are in hock up to their eyeballs and desperately trying to secure themselves before the chickens come home to roost. If that means shafting the smaller clubs, they won't hesitate for a second.

It's just a pity that there is anybody supporting Sligo Rovers who can fool themselves into believing otherwise.

[sligored]

agreed fivesilver - 2 years in the wilderness with nothing to play for would do imponderable damage.
i would prefer to be in the first division graveyard than that

[red_away]

Forget fanciful debate - this would be the death knell for provincial football in ireland!!

Cherry picking teams like this and ringfencing teams from relegation, lining the pockets of the few suits(Arkaga and Drury et al) who couldnt give a damn about the long term health of football in ireland!

Even then if by some miracle it is for the long term good of irish football I for one do not want to sacrifice the future my football club for the sake of the jackeen teams and those teams in the larger population centres who have no support!!!!

I am very interested to hear from supporters of the other clubs who would be "cherry picked"?

[Only1Rovers]

I see Eircom are not renewing their contract with the FAI in sponsoring the League when their contract is up. This is a major kick in the teeth for the League as a whole!
Another plus for Fintan Drury's argument.

[Guts&Glory]

QUOTE=Only1Rovers;987875]I see Eircom are not renewing their contract with the FAI in sponsoring the League when their contract is up. This is a major kick in the teeth for the League as a whole!
Another plus for Fintan Drury's argument.[/QUOTE]

How so? What lines of advertising does Drury have available to him ?

Using his Paddy Power and Anglo Irish Bank connections to sponsor the league.....I doubt it and he has not given any commitment to this.

It amazes me that the word (document) of a man (agent in his football related business) who runs an organisation, Platinum One, of 7 people and is on record as being a supporter of Man City, no Eircom League team mentioned, is taken as Gospel.


He says that the top four clubs in the League lost €6m last season, so how will his idea reduce such debts, if anything it would accelerate as each team tries to buy the best players from the other teams, he also hopes that the league would bring back Irish players from the English lower leagues to play in the proposed AIPL, those wages would, as we all know from experience, be above normal Eircom League levels hence creating more expensive operating costs in the proposed AIPL.

Any one who has read the document - in full - to my eyes surely cannot fail to see there is only one motivation behind this idea and that is the income his company will get from running such a 10 team league. The health of football in Ireland is well down the list of priorities.

Saying he can increase income to the teams in the league is one thing, saying he can get extra bodies through the turnstiles is another thing completely.


As he said himself he thinks his plan if embraced by both FA's has a chance of succeeding, what happens after the initial proposed 5 year operation of the league it is still as bad as ever his company walks away and you have a collapse of the teams in the 10 team league.

Who says a man with no football business related experience aside from agent work on behalf of players can operate a league better than those already in charge.

The proposal is amateurish at best in its presentation and structure and derogatory in its use of language.

By no means are the FAI excelling themselves but what about the A league, Futsal league, under age football at the clubs and FAI jurisdiction ? Its cherry picking what football he wishes to look after also.

What about working with the League and providing a blueprint for them to use rather than trying to act as a military coup.

As Drury himself admits the FAI or IFA have no obligation to listen to his ideas as he is merely trying to put forward a business idea he has that was not commissioned or requested by the leagues FA's.

The IFA are looking at revamping their league and running an invitational league. There are also moves afoot to expand the Setanta Cup.

If Drury et al was to offer consultancy and advice to the FAI I would have far more respect for this idea.

He knows little or nothing about the league in its present form and the idea that Galway and Limerick can all of a sudden magic bodies in to watch their team is a joke of the highest order.

In the report a list of clubs that have struggled in recent years, in that list three teams Cork, Shams and Bohs , thats 30% of his proposed teams in the 10 team League are noted as having difficulties, so how does he plan to get them from excess €1m each per year operating debts in Bohs and Cork case to making profit in his league of €4m prizemoney even though not one cent of that proposed
€4m prizefund has yet been secured.


Why am I raising this point ? The report mentions :

- Clubs would need to meet very strict Licensing criteria as set by UEFA through
the Associations Club Licensing Departments, to qualify for the AIPL including
meeting financial demands that would protect the League against unanticipated
difficulties.

How on earth could clubs do that when at present by his own admission those very clubs are in serious financial difficulty.

The GAA in Galway's case and Rugby in Limerick case is so strong that football is lucky to be surviving at all in those areas and that’s from being there on a regular basis and talking to people on the ground involved locally. Drury sitting in an office in Dublin scribbling down his plans doesn’t seem to have done that as by his own admission he has spoken to a few of the Dublin teams and Bohs are keen for it to take off, that’s Bohs who had a operating deficit of over €1m last year.....sort of makes Rovers €130,000 pale into insignificance.

Drury is pushing this idea as a Fait Acompli as if no one else can have an idea on how to operate the league.

Sure why would he do that when there would be far less money involved in that.

[Redie]

I was just about to make those very points myself Guts&Glory.
Glad you got in before me.
Totally agree with you.

[avvenalaf]

Well, well, well, Eircom pull the plug. Looks like we'll be damn glad of Fintan Drury before long.

[Fivesilver]

If Drury gets what he wants, there'll be no reason whatsoever to refer to Sligo Rovers as "we" in connection with the AIL.

[avvenalaf]

Yeah? Well, at least we won't be burying ourselves in debt trying to compete at a level which is, financially, beyond us. And we'll have winter football back.

[Rovers Maniac]

Yeah? Well, at least we won't be burying ourselves in debt trying to compete at a level which is, financially, beyond us. And we'll have winter football back.

The club could compete ina division with the top 10 teams in the country, i would not put Limerick or Galway ahead of us.

[Fivesilver]

Precisely the point a lot of people seem to be missing - we're in debt from trying to compete with the top few teams who are also taking ludicrous financial risks. They're now getting seriously windy about their precarious situation and want a league where, in their own deluded world, they're guaranteed bumper crowds every week, in the process shafting whoever necessary. The ultimate goal of this brave new world appears to be one day, possibly, turning out a team as good as the mighty Rosenborg.

Never mind the fact that all this guff about massively improved performances in Europe is a smokescreen. Summer football means our teams at the peak of their season are playing against pudgy, unfit sides just back from Ibiza and Lanzarote. Neither do our clubs these days start out against the level of team they used to. For all the talk, what Irish club of this era has produced anything to rank with Dundalk v Spurs, Bohs v Rangers or Athlone v Milan?

Unfashionable as it may sound in the Celtic Tiger era of "winners" and "brash mavericks", I'd be perfectly happy to see League of Ireland teams be less, rather than more, ambitious. This league and its clubs should stop trying to be be what they're not, stop pretending that they're ever going to be a "force" (whatever that means) in Europe, and concentrate on finding ways to increase their appeal at the level they're really at. Links with the community, a conduit (why not?) for young players on their way to a higher level, and week in, week out, decent, committed entertainment on your doorstep without the fear that your hometown club is going to fall victim to stupid overspending.

[Redie]

Well, well, well, Eircom pull the plug. Looks like we'll be damn glad of Fintan Drury before long.

Anyone any idea how much money Rovers get from eircom's sponsorship every year?


Dundalk v Spurs, Bohs v Rangers or Athlone v Milan?......Rovers v Floriana....Rovers v Nantes......Rovers v Heerenveen.


I'd be perfectly happy to see League of Ireland teams be less, rather than more, ambitious. This league and its clubs should stop trying to be be what they're not, stop pretending that they're ever going to be a "force" (whatever that means) in Europe, and concentrate on finding ways to increase their appeal at the level they're really at

Sorry Fivesilver, can't agree with you there. Eurpoe is the only real way to measure if the league is making progress or not and is one of the main ways for any club to increase their appeal. If you don't have ambition you have nothing!

[Fivesilver]

Floriana....Heerenveen.

Have you any idea how ridiculous that comparison looks?



If you don't have ambition you have nothing!

There's a meaningless empty slogan Drury himself would be proud of. My point is that the ambitions are misguided. Ambition without regard for reality is simply stupidity.

[Guts&Glory]

Yeah? Well, at least we won't be burying ourselves in debt trying to compete at a level which is, financially, beyond us. And we'll have winter football back.

I would not consider €130,000 burying ourselves in debt.

Especially compared to Pats cork Bohs Drogheda an dtheir €6m plus total losses.

[avvenalaf]

The difference is that their losses are covered by assets/investors and are not the subject of bucket collections in the Tesco car park.

[Fivesilver]

"Covered" being a fairly optimistic description.

[Guts&Glory]

The difference is that their losses are covered by assets/investors and are not the subject of bucket collections in the Tesco car park.

The companies set up as the 'feeder' of cash for the clubs can close for business and be wound up at any time, if wound up with losses those losses would be held against the club potentially meaning the club being put out of business, definately putting those clubs directly into acute financial difficulty.

The directors of those feeder companies can walk away.

[Redie]

Have you any idea how ridiculous that comparison looks?

Actually no I don't, maybe you might come up with a few to help me?

When Rovers beat Floriana in what was then the Cup Winners Cup it was - and I am open to correction here - the first time an Irish club had won a tie in European and progressed to the next round of the competition. Now I cannot remember but exactly what results did Dundalk, Bohs and Athlone achieve against Spurs, Rangers and Milan?
I notice you did not mention the Nantes game!


There's a meaningless empty slogan Drury himself would be proud of. My point is that the ambitions are misguided. Ambition without regard for reality is simply stupidity.

Look, I have nothing but contempt for Drury's plans and any other Drury with similar plans but I refuse to believe that to have ambition and a desire to improve and progress is something to apologise for.
Now maybe that's another 'meaningless empty slogan Drury himself would be proud of' but as I wouldn't know the man if he popped up in my soup I'll have to depend on you to advise me.

[avvenalaf]

The companies set up as the 'feeder' of cash for the clubs can close for business and be wound up at any time, if wound up with losses those losses would be held against the club potentially meaning the club being put out of business, definately putting those clubs directly into acute financial difficulty.

The directors of those feeder companies can walk away.

Now why didn't we think of that?

[Redie]

That should have read...........

Quote:

Have you any idea how ridiculous that comparison looks?

Actually no I don't, maybe you might come up with a few to help me?

When Rovers beat Floriana in what was then the Cup Winners Cup it was - and I am open to correction here - the first time an Irish club had won a tie in European football to progress to the next round of the competition. Now I cannot remember but exactly what results did Dundalk, Bohs and Athlone achieve against Spurs, Rangers and Milan?
I notice you did not mention the Nantes game!



Quote:
There's a meaningless empty slogan Drury himself would be proud of. My point is that the ambitions are misguided. Ambition without regard for reality is simply stupidity.
Look, I have nothing but contempt for Drury's plans and any other Drury with similar plans but I refuse to believe that to have ambition and a desire to improve and progress is something to apologise for.
Now maybe that's another 'meaningless empty slogan Drury himself would be proud of' but as I wouldn't know the man if he popped up in my soup I'll have to depend on you to advise me.

[Fivesilver]

I didn't mention the Nantes game, because I didn't think it was ludicrous.
The results I'm talking about are Athlone 0-0 Milan, Dundalk 0-0 Spurs and Bohs 3-2 Rangers.
I was as happy as anyone else when Rovers beat Floriana - in fact I spent a fortune on an international phone call getting live commentary from Mary McGowan on the last 10 minutes of the second leg. :D
I'm not going to pretend for a second, though, that it was the equal in terms of a performance or result with the three mentioned above.

By the way, if Drury does pop up in your soup, hit him on the head with a spoon and send it back. ;)