EL players in National Team [Archive]

elroy

01/07/2008, 12:48 PM

I always think two good barometers of how well the league is placed is:
1: performances in european games
2: former el players performances in the premier league etc

Bar kevin doyle and he had a very poor season last season, there has been few players who have left the El in recent years and made a decent job of playing in the epl or even championship.

Secondly el teams performances in europe over the last few years have improved but none the less fallen short. Last season drogs did well, shels did extremely well not that long ago.

But in summary, while i think the standard of the top teams in the el is very good, im not sure many of the players really would be good enough for a mid epl team, let alone international football.

superfrank

01/07/2008, 12:51 PM

SunderlandBohs

01/07/2008, 3:00 PM

micls

01/07/2008, 3:50 PM

would be good enough for a mid epl team, let alone international football.

How many of our internationals(squad) are playing regularly with mid-table EPL sides?

superfrank

01/07/2008, 3:54 PM

Not a chance. The best EL players are of League One standard, which is two tiers where the required level is.
How often do you watch the EL?

Some of the best EL players are also getting European experience, something the Championship and lower-end Premiership players aren't getting.

micls

01/07/2008, 3:55 PM

How often do you watch the EL?

Some of the best EL players are also getting European experience, something the Championship and lower-end Premiership players aren't getting.

I cant believe you're responding to Ciaran......

superfrank

01/07/2008, 4:03 PM

I cant believe you're responding to Ciaran......
Why? Ciaran's responses are glorious, mis-informed drivel. It's hilarious!

Dodge

01/07/2008, 4:23 PM

Bar kevin doyle and he had a very poor season last season, there has been few players who have left the El in recent years and made a decent job of playing in the epl or even championship

And Doyle didn't score for Pats in two seasons...

I hink this thread should be locked BTW as its been done to death at least 1,000 times here.

GavinZac

01/07/2008, 4:51 PM

Secondly el teams performances in europe over the last few years have improved but none the less fallen short. Last season drogs did well, shels did extremely well not that long ago.
Cork City have beaten or drawn with Dutch, Swedish, Icelandic, French, and Cypriot teams with basically the team they have now. I wouldn't fancy our national team to do the same against theirs.

SilkCut

02/07/2008, 7:38 AM

How often do you watch the EL?

Some of the best EL players are also getting European experience, something the Championship and lower-end Premiership players aren't getting.

Playing Rhyl, TNS, Aberdeen, Lovech etc.. (I know Shels played Depor and Bohs played Celtic once upon a time) Hardly counts as European experience does it?? Cos if it does,does playing against Spanish and French students mean I have european experience?? There are some decent players in LOI who would probably do quite well for smaller Scottish teams or in league 1 or 2 but any player over 23 in LOI is pretty much never going to be good enough to play for Ireland. Glen Crowe, Jason Byrne to name two were deemed good enough but failed to follow up on early promise. There will always be the exception to the rule (Doyle and maybe Hoolahan) but realistically there is no-one in the LOI likely to become a regular Irish team member. Sad really.

finnpark

02/07/2008, 9:04 AM

The LOI players are as good as what are in the squad. At least if the LOI players were in the squad they wouldn't be out boozing before matches and they might actually try for their country.

Hibernian

02/07/2008, 9:25 AM

Macy

02/07/2008, 9:30 AM

Do you think any of them are capable?

I was just watching MNS and witnessed a pretty good pass by Keith Fahey, and was thinking maby a player like Fahey would thrive with the pace of International football and playing alongsid good players like Keane and McGeady.
Not for a full competitive squad, but compared to some of the no marks that are called up from lower league reserve teams for some of the friendlies, definitely.

At least if the LOI players were in the squad they wouldn't be out boozing before matches and they might actually try for their country.
Aye, it'd be a chance for them to progress, not to go on the beer in Dublin.

Hibernian

02/07/2008, 9:33 AM

Playing Rhyl, TNS, Aberdeen, Lovech etc.. (I know Shels played Depor and Bohs played Celtic once upon a time) Hardly counts as European experience does it?? Cos if it does,does playing against Spanish and French students mean I have european experience?? There are some decent players in LOI who would probably do quite well for smaller Scottish teams or in league 1 or 2 but any player over 23 in LOI is pretty much never going to be good enough to play for Ireland. Glen Crowe, Jason Byrne to name two were deemed good enough but failed to follow up on early promise. There will always be the exception to the rule (Doyle and maybe Hoolahan) but realistically there is no-one in the LOI likely to become a regular Irish team member. Sad really.

100% agree

if jason byrne cant make it at Cardiff then forget it... People might think otheriwse but lets get real here.

Think Hoolahan deserves a crack at first team

SunderlandBohs

02/07/2008, 10:33 AM

The LOI players are as good as what are in the squad. At least if the LOI players were in the squad they wouldn't be out boozing before matches and they might actually try for their country.
To true Finnpark! Take Brian Murphy been over looked for that Westwood. Murph is probably the 3rd best Irish keeper behind Given & Kiely. As a Bohs fan I'm resigned to the fact he'll be playing in England very soon & he will make it with out a doubt.But Westwood, who was playing in League1 at the time for a side not much better (if not worse) than any in the LOI got picked. Why? Because he plays in England & as he stated " I'm not Irish as much as a good Catholic". His really going to give his all for "his" nation.

irishultra

02/07/2008, 11:13 AM

But somone like JP Kelly must have talent...he was captain of the Liverpool youth team, so he must have had something going for him.

Same with Fahey, Aston Villa signed him for 250,000 as a nobody Irish teenager from Arsenal.

I'm convinced a lot of players have a lot of talent here, but don't have the mentality or physical condition that is required for the very top.

Emmet

02/07/2008, 11:16 AM

I don't watch EL football so I'm not an expert on this but how far away do those of you who do watch it reckon we are from seeing an EL side in the Group phase of the Champions League?

gustavo

02/07/2008, 11:29 AM

Not really sure ,However we regularly play players who never have nor never will play in the Champions League

jebus

02/07/2008, 11:48 AM

This again...............

I would love for Trap to put a team of the EL's finest out against Bulgaria in the World Cup qualifiers just to end this debate once and for all. It would nearly be worth mssing out on South Africa to finally give a resounding No answer, underlined, put in bold and followed by ten exclaimation marks.

O'Callaghan was considered one of the league's shining lights when he moved to Ipswich (mid table Championship) was he not? What an impact he had there. He might become a solid League One player next season. Doyle is a solid Championship player, not intelligent enough to be an effective Premiership striker over a few seasons and I really think he should be dropped for the national team at this stage (Keane/Doyle partnership doesn't work).

irishultra

02/07/2008, 12:35 PM

Doyle is intelligent. Its probably one of his biggest attributes.

He was played on the wing for the majority of the season, and scored 6 goals, more than people like Andy Johnson(who is brainless)

He's definetly mid-table EPL level.

adamcarr

02/07/2008, 1:29 PM

O'Callaghan was considered one of the league's shining lights when he moved to Ipswich (mid table Championship) was he not? What an impact he had there. He might become a solid League One player next season. Doyle is a solid Championship player, not intelligent enough to be an effective Premiership striker over a few seasons and I really think he should be dropped for the national team at this stage (Keane/Doyle partnership doesn't work).

To be fair to Georgie who I admit is not Championship standard, he did not fail at Ipswich, the fans did rate him and Georgie was the 3rd choice central midfielder. Georgie asked for a loan to Brighton where he took the **** in League 1. He came home to City by choice after asking for a release from his Ipswich deal, in fact he is/was being paid more by City now then he was being paid by Ipswich believe it or not.

lofty9

02/07/2008, 1:56 PM

Do you think any of them are capable?

No. I always thought Owen Heary could have made the step up, but he's had his day.

I was just watching MNS and witnessed a pretty good pass by Keith Fahey, and was thinking maby a player like Fahey would thrive with the pace of International football and playing alongsid good players like Keane and McGeady.

I was at that match. Granted, he made 2/3 runs with the ball as Derry were caught up the pitch. But Derry were so bad, you or I could have made a positive impression.

Not a chance. The best EL players are of League One standard, which is two tiers where the required level is.

I agree. :mad: You'll always get the exception though.

After watching Bohs and Pats (and Derry) in under a week, I'm left with the feeling that there is still a very very long way for players to get to International level standard. They are not going to get there playing in the EL each week.

:ball:An honest opinion from an ardant LOI fan. :ball:

SkStu

02/07/2008, 4:21 PM

while at the moment i think No, it also has to be said that there are far better players than Jonathan Douglas playing each week in the eL.

one thing has to be said that at the time, Crowe and Byrne deserved their call up and Crowe can certainly be said to have played very well against Greece. Byrne was unfortunate that he didnt score a goal during his 20 second cameo :rolleyes:

Razors left peg

02/07/2008, 4:28 PM

I have said plenty of times before that I dont think any LOI player is good enough for a place in the international team, but Mooneys goal scoring record over the last couple of seasons might make him an interesting option considering his height. I do think though to get a regular starting place he would have to be playing regularly in a higher standard league

amaccann

02/07/2008, 4:28 PM

Are league of Ireland players good enough for the starting 11?
Hell no, not yet.

Are they good enough to make up the squad / subs bench, rather than plastic paddies from the Championship / League 1?
Too bloody right they are. It's not so much a question of quality, but more the larger question of precisely where you draw the line in picking a squad of "irish" players.

tetsujin1979

02/07/2008, 4:30 PM

Byrne was unfortunate that he didnt score a goal during his 20 second cameo :rolleyes:
Or against Chile

superfrank

02/07/2008, 4:49 PM

Playing Rhyl, TNS, Aberdeen, Lovech etc.. (I know Shels played Depor and Bohs played Celtic once upon a time) Hardly counts as European experience does it??
Last year, Derry City played Pyunik and most of their players played for the Armenian national side. Cork played a Cypriot team a while ago and it's possible that some of their players played for the Cyprus team, though I'm not sure. Over the years el teams have played Romanian, Serbian, Swedish and Croatian sides which had full internationals in their line-ups.

Playing against sides that have full internationals is invaluable experience.

SkStu

02/07/2008, 5:15 PM

Or against Chile

yet another outstanding contribution to a discussion from tetsujin.

sullanefc

02/07/2008, 6:49 PM

Dave Mooney. Well able for the national team.

GavinZac

02/07/2008, 7:32 PM

Cork played a Cypriot team a while ago and it's possible that some of their players played for the Cyprus team, though I'm not sure.Appollon had several cypriot internationals, several iraqi internationals and a polish international striker Lukas Sosin (3 caps, 2 goals). A few months later Ireland lost to a Cypriot team containing several Apollon players, in the very stadium City had beaten them.

jebus

02/07/2008, 8:54 PM

Dave Mooney. Well able for the national team.

On what basis? Is he more deserving than say Clinton Morrison? A man proven to have a good understanding with Keane, and a guy who is coming off the back of a very good season in the Championship

tetsujin1979

02/07/2008, 11:55 PM

yet another outstanding contribution to a discussion from tetsujin.
Byrne, consistently one of the top scorers in the eL - contributed little or nothing in 2 games (ok, one cameo, and one substitution) - to the international scene. Since then he's had a failed move to Cardiff where he scored on his debut (a tap in IIRC) and did little or nothing following that. If Trap/Brady/Tardelli recommended the Cardiff sub striker tomorrrow, the eL fans on the forum would be up in arms, but this player would be as good as Byrne, if not better.
Crowe, as you say, did play well against Greece up front alongside Gary Doherty, but since then, his star has fallen somewhat in the eL, and (IMO) is no longer good enough to be considered for international selection.
There are some good players in the eL - I'm not denying that - but what they, and the fans, are going to have to accept is that success in the English game is going to be the benchmark for success for the forseeable future. Right now there are probably 5-7 MAX players in the league that could be brought in to improve the senior international squad, but few (if any) of these would improve the first choice starting XI (assuming no injuries or suspensions)

sullanefc

03/07/2008, 12:05 AM

On what basis?

From seeing him play, duh!!

Is he more deserving than say Clinton Morrison? A man proven to have a good understanding with Keane, and a guy who is coming off the back of a very good season in the Championship
Maybe not, but is prob more deserving than other players that get picked in the squads.

SilkCut

03/07/2008, 1:12 AM

Last year, Derry City played Pyunik and most of their players played for the Armenian national side. Cork played a Cypriot team a while ago and it's possible that some of their players played for the Cyprus team, though I'm not sure. Over the years el teams have played Romanian, Serbian, Swedish and Croatian sides which had full internationals in their line-ups.

Playing against sides that have full internationals is invaluable experience.

Armenia!!!!!!!!!!! Mate who would you rather play against to gain experience Armenia or Crystal Palace (8 full internationals in their first team squad including 3 Irish) Longford played Vaduz (Practically the Liechenstein team) was that genuine European experience?? These sides are rubbish. As for Limassol, well fair enough they are about the same level as Cork City. Trap could put out a team of EL Players against Armenia or Liechenstein and expect to win, he could do the same against Cyprus and maybe expect to draw but as a footballing nation that is not the level we should be competing at. The question should be are there any EL players capable of making a significant contribution to our WC qualifying campaign (Cos if they cant they should not play international football). The answer must be no, who in the EL could compete against the Italians - they may have the latent talent to do so but they do not have the experience.
As for whoever said there are EL players as good as the players in the Irish squad, could you name a team of 11 to beat Given, O'Shea, Dunne, McShane, Kilbane, Mcgeady, S. Reid, A. Reid, Duff, Keane, Doyle? just for starters.

Saint_Charlie

03/07/2008, 8:04 AM

Trap could put out a team of EL Players against Armenia or Liechenstein and expect to win

I don't think anyone is arguing to have a team of EL players. People would like to see players who are a genuine talent in Ireland given a chance to represent their country. I really can't see why the likes of Fahey (who IMO is the only EL player anywhere near ready) can't be given a chance in freindlys to prove himself. If he flops, fair enough he's not good enough and we move on but the fact is because he plays in Ireland he will most likely never be given that oppurtunity to prove himself.

jebus

03/07/2008, 8:17 AM

From seeing him play, duh!!

I saw him play this season and thought he was a diving, over-rated hack, we all have opinions but thankfully there are better criteria for selection than what a few fans of a certain player think

pateen

03/07/2008, 11:28 AM

I don't watch EL football so I'm not an expert on this but how far away do those of you who do watch it reckon we are from seeing an EL side in the Group phase of the Champions League?

Unfortunatly a bit off yet but then it can always be down to a break of a ball and a top team off form.

Colin Healy it would have to be for me. Doesnt get half the praise he deserves

back of the net

03/07/2008, 1:17 PM

Do you think any of them are capable?

I was just watching MNS and witnessed a pretty good pass by Keith Fahey, and was thinking maby a player like Fahey would thrive with the pace of International football and playing alongsid good players like Keane and McGeady.

in a word - "NO"

maybe give the like of mooney and co a chance in a friendly but absolutely not in a competitive game

I would love to see the EL be more represented in the national team - but fact is , they just aint uo to the standard required

superfrank

03/07/2008, 1:18 PM

Armenia!!!!!!!!!!! Mate who would you rather play against to gain experience Armenia or Crystal Palace (8 full internationals in their first team squad including 3 Irish)
Armenia beat Poland 1-0 in the Euro qualifying and drew with Portugal, Finland and Serbia all at home. Therefore, EL teams travelling to play ties in those places are going to get a real experienece of what the national team would face.

gustavo

03/07/2008, 1:26 PM

Armenia!!!!!!!!!!! Mate who would you rather play against to gain experience Armenia or Crystal Palace (8 full internationals in their first team squad including 3 Irish)

I hear Armenia have one or two international players in their squad too

sullanefc

03/07/2008, 3:13 PM

I saw him play this season and thought he was a diving, over-rated hack, we all have opinions but thankfully there are better criteria for selection than what a few fans of a certain player think

You shouldn't let your bitterness cloud your judgement.

irishultra

03/07/2008, 3:37 PM

Unfortunatly a bit off yet but then it can always be down to a break of a ball and a top team off form.

Colin Healy it would have to be for me. Doesnt get half the praise he deserves

Yeah but he was an International player already, or so I think.

Saint_Charlie

03/07/2008, 5:32 PM

IRELAND boss Giovanni Trapattoni has promised to keep an eye on the performance of Irish clubs competing in European competition this summer.

Last year, eircom League teams played 12 times in Europe but the then senior team boss Steve Staunton failed to attend a single one on his way to a failed Euro 2008 qualification campaign.

But Trapattoni, speaking before a fundraising event for Waterford United yesterday, says that he and his coaching staff will track the European fortunes of Bohemians (Intertoto Cup), Drogheda United (Champions League), Cork City and St Patrick's Athletic (UEFA Cup).

"We plan to go and watch the Irish clubs play in European competition," the Italian legend said.

"We had spoken about it before but the fixtures were only announced on Tuesday, now that we know where the clubs will be playing, I plan to have the games watched.

"Between myself, Marco Tardelli and Liam Brady we will watch those Irish clubs play."

Bohs play Latvian side FK Riga in the second round of the Intertoto Cup next weekend, while St Pats also face Latvian opposition (JFK Olimps) in the UEFA Cup.Might be a chance yet...

SilkCut

03/07/2008, 11:34 PM

I hear Armenia have one or two international players in their squad too

I was making the point that even players at Championship level get to play regularly against internation players. Not just one off matches against the mighty champions of Armenia, Liechenstein, Wales or other such footballing strongholds once a year when they somehow manage to get beaten then cry for the rest of the season because the big bad international manager won't give them a chance. I ask again who in the EL (Which by the way I love, I attended almost every LTFC game for the 4 years I lived there home and away) would replace the likes of Given, Mcgeady, Duff, Keane the 2 Reids etc.. The majority of the best players in the EL have already tried and failed in England, would you really feel comfortable cheering for them as they walk out to face Italy????

jebus

04/07/2008, 9:23 AM

You shouldn't let your bitterness cloud your judgement.

The bitterness at watching him blatantly dive so Cork's overpaid neverhavebeens could get by a part time team with one of their worst squads ever in a cup competition? Why not when it's true?

sullanefc

04/07/2008, 3:28 PM

The bitterness at watching him blatantly dive so Cork's overpaid neverhavebeens could get by a part time team with one of their worst squads ever in a cup competition? Why not when it's true?

Now you are using his wage to bash him. Surely not the criteria to judge a player??

Junior

06/07/2008, 5:56 PM

Is Fahey the lad at St Pats? If so, they r just on setanta so ill have a butchers,,,,,,,,

Saint_Charlie

06/07/2008, 10:03 PM

Is Fahey the lad at St Pats? If so, they r just on setanta so ill have a butchers,,,,,,,,

Did you watch it? Fahey got man of the match.

amaccann

07/07/2008, 12:16 PM

Hey, if that above quote is correct & Trap is true to his word that he will monitor the EL teams, then that's fair enough. So long as we know that the managers are genuinely looking at our native league, I'll be happy even if the answer is a "no". I don't think the answer should be "no", given the depths we dug to make a squad a while back, but that's a different matter altogether. But the previous complete ignoring of the league was bad form, so at least that seems to have gone.