Euro 2008: Lessons for Ireland?

[Stuttgart88]

Lessons for Ireland from Euro 2008?


- The quality of centre back play & especially pairings of CBs, was poor. Teams overcame this by placing emphasis on attack. Maybe we're not as bad in the CB department as we thought. Dunne + O'Shea or O'Brien?
- Overlapping, attacking full backs was a major theme. This means having right footers at RB and left footers at LB.
- Width came primarily from full back play. I generally wasn't impressed by the quality of "traditional" wide play in this tournament, bar a couple of exceptions. Our wide players could have more than held their own in many of the teams at this tournament.
- Emphasis on passing & technique. Very few teams depended on speculative passing like we do. Full backs didn't chip the ball forward up the line like it's a reflex action. CBs passed the ball to full backs or midfielders far more often than they luanched it forward. The phrase "playing it down the channels" probably doesn't exist outside the English language.
- 4-4-2 looks tired and mono-dimensional. 4-2-3-1 appears to be gaining popularity & adaptability was they key. Ability to score from midfield is obviously important in this context.
- Balance in midfield: you need a good ball winner with a good ball user. Do we have either?
- Our first 2 goalkeepers are as good as anyone's.
- There's no place for mega egos in a successful tournament team. Nor is there a place for shortarses.
- My long held mantra about the impotance of set pieces didn't really hold true in Euro 2008, bar maybe Germany vs. Portugal. An anomaly?

Anyway, the lessons for doing well in a finals don't necessarily hold for getting through qualification.

I loved almost every minute of this tournament. This is what the lawmakers had in mind when outlawing rash tackles etc. in the 90s. Finally technique has won out over muscularity though in the back of my mind I couldn't help feel that a team like the Ivory Coast could have eaten up some of the more entertaining teams here with a combination of both.

[Razors left peg]

Lessons for Ireland from Euro 2008?


- The quality of centre back play & especially pairings of CBs, was poor. Teams overcame this by placing emphasis on attack. Maybe we're not as bad in the CB department as we thought. Dunne + O'Shea or O'Brien?
- Overlapping, attacking full backs was a major theme. This means having right footers at RB and left footers at LB.
- Width came primarily from full back play. I generally wasn't impressed by the quality of "traditional" wide play in this tournament, bar a couple of exceptions. Our wide players could have more than held their own in many of the teams at this tournament.
- Emphasis on passing & technique. Very few teams depended on speculative passing like we do. Full backs didn't chip the ball forward up the line like it's a reflex action. CBs passed the ball to full backs or midfielders far more often than they luanched it forward. The phrase "playing it down the channels" probably doesn't exist outside the English language.
- 4-4-2 looks tired and mono-dimensional. 4-2-3-1 appears to be gaining popularity & adaptability was they key. Ability to score from midfield is obviously important in this context.
- Balance in midfield: you need a good ball winner with a good ball user. Do we have either?
- Our first 2 goalkeepers are as good as anyone's.
- There's no place for mega egos in a successful tournament team. Nor is there a place for shortarses.
- My long held mantra about the impotance of set pieces didn't really hold true in Euro 2008, bar maybe Germany vs. Portugal. An anomaly?

Anyway, the lessons for doing well in a finals don't necessarily hold for getting through qualification.

I loved almost every minute of this tournament. This is what the lawmakers had in mind when outlawing rash tackles etc. in the 90s. Finally technique has won out over muscularity though in the back of my mind I couldn't help feel that a team like the Ivory Coast could have eaten up some of the more entertaining teams here with a combination of both.

Cant agree with that,Spain werent a very big team and they managed fine against more athletic sides. Plus Modric and Arshavin had good tournament and are small even compared to our lads

[Wolfie]

One of the best tournaments in living memory.

The importance of "team ethic" and commitment to the cause was a recurring theme. The Spanish, the Turks and their resiliance and full blooded determination and also the heartbroken Croats after defeat.

If Ireland can regain and adopt tactics to be "better than the sum of our parts" we'll be a far better proposition with immediate effect.

Yet again - Centre Midfield (our lack of) troubles me greatly.

[Stuttgart88]

Point taken Razor to an extent but I wouldn't classify the Spanish guys as shortarses though - certainly not in the Miller / Ireland mould - but I accept they're smaller than the Germans or the Czechs etc. The likes of Xavi, Inista etc are athletically a match for most opponents. I thought Germany only prevailed over Portugal due to their height in the end. Modric & Arshavin were surrounded by tall players. What I should have said is that there is no place for a team of shortarses!

I'd also add something I read in one of the papers, which contradicts one of my other comments: no longer is it sufficient just to have a Makelele like ball winner. A ball wining midfielder needs to be able to use it well too. The "Makelele role" has become a well worn phrase in English football. Perhaps the benchmark for that position should now be replaced with the "Senna role".

[Reality Bites]

A truly brillant Team Won the tournament! Its hard not to get into Hyberbole when you think of the quality of Player at Spains Disposal, - Xavi, Senna, Torres, Fabregas, Villa etc not to mention their outstanding Keeper, only shame is they didn't hammer in a few more past Lehman just to give emphasis to their brillance! The thought did cross mind though a country as political diverse as Spain, did this Victory go down as well as it did in Madrid in say Bilbao or Barcelona?

[tetsujin1979]

I think some of the teams in the tournament have completely dispensed with a dedicated "holding midfielder". Russia, Spain, Holland, all played with ball-winning midfield players, who can play with the ball instead of just firing off an immediate pass. Russia and Holland seemed to have the entire midfield either attack, or defend as a single unit. Working together to regain possession, then moving up the pitch with 3 or four options available for passes to move in to the last third of the pitch.
With McGeady having put emphasis on the defensive side of his game over the last 2 seasons, and Duff having it beaten into him at Chelsea, I think we could adapt to this fairly easily. But this (like so many other things at the moment) will depend on the 2 Reids staying fit and in first team football this season.

BTW that sound you can hear is eirebhoy's world collapsing around his ears. Where is he these days anyway?

[Dr. Ogba]

Lessons for Ireland from Euro 2008?
- Emphasis on passing & technique. Very few teams depended on speculative passing like we do. Full backs didn't chip the ball forward up the line like it's a reflex action. CBs passed the ball to full backs or midfielders far more often than they luanched it forward. The phrase "playing it down the channels" probably doesn't exist outside the English language.


The exact same thought occurred to me and, unfortunately, until we sort out our centre midfield pairing we're still going to struggle in this department. We definitely need some kind of "link player" between the defence and midfield - I'd say Andy Reid is our best bet providing he stays clear of injuries.
Also agree that the 4-2-3-1 option would be well worth trying if we're to work on retaining the ball for any amount of time in the upcoming games...

[tetsujin1979]

Lessons for England from the Independent: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/capellos-england-hopefuls-must-go-to-school-on-euro-08-lessons-1423132.html
We'd be pretty much in the same boat as this.

[lopez]

... The thought did cross mind though a country as political diverse as Spain, did this Victory go down as well as it did in Madrid in say Bilbao or Barcelona?I wondered what the reaction would be in the three other nations outside Greater Castille, if Spain won . Barcelona has been partying (one fan was pictured dancing with the ERC flag on one hand and the old Spanish republican flag on the other), and so have the Galician cities, but to be honest I'd be surprised if that didn't happen. It's in the Basque country where I am surprised. Vitoria and Bilbao (a link to a newspaper with a video of the celebrations below) had major celebrations with only San Sebastian being moderate. Given the 'street violence' that is conducted by ETA's youth wing at the weekends, that's no surprise. Smaller towns, or suburbs of Bilbao, where immigrants from outside have settled, of course have been celebrating.

I've been following the debates in the two major Basque Spanish papers (Diario Vasco and El Coreo Del Norte), of which both have been bombed by ETA, and there have been some verbal fisticuffs. But the majority of posters support Spain and consider there is no contradiction between being both Basque and Spanish. Some posts have been written in Euskera (which I can't understand) and generally end along the lines of 'Gora Athletic, Gora Euskadi, Gora Espainia.' Even GARA has managed to put the win at the top of its front page.

http://www.elperiodico.com/galerias.asp?idioma=CAS&idgaleria=1175

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/fotos/2008/06/29/01101214776476135829462.htm

http://www.elcorreodigital.com/vizcaya/#

http://www.diariovasco.com/20080630/deportes/mas-futbol/aficionados-sebastian-tambien-celebraron-20080630.html

http://www.gara.net/paperezkoa/20080630/pri01.pdf

[Cabs88]

The key to irelands future in midfield are the two stephen's, Ireland and Reid, if we can get both fit, committed and in form, wanting to wear the green shirt, we would be in much better stead going on to the qualifiers.
I agree that full backs have been an important feature of the tournement, with lahm, gio van bronkhorst, sergio et al all shining going forward. Holding midfielders have dropped back nearly as a third centre back to allow full backs the chance to go forward.
Its all well and good contemplating the changing face of football, and try to learn from the competition, but one wonders, will all this be lost on Trappatoni; will he stick to what he knows, and his tried and trusted style of play?!

[third policeman]

The encouraging news is that comprising technically proficient but physicaly small players beat a team of teutonic supermen. I may be an absurd optimist, but I have always believed that if we select and integrate the best of our current crop of players we could be a decent side (and a nice one to watch as well). A. Reid, McGeady, Ireland, Duff, Keane, Garvan, Doyle, Scannell etc are all players with good technique who can use the ball intelligently. We have got to adopt a Europeam mentality and stop thinking of ourselves as a team who need to get at opponents and adopt a physicaly aggressive approach to compensate for our technical limitations. I dont think that we have technical limitations.

I think we have better technical players than England and our squad should be constructed to suit the style of play that will work best for us. To me that means that Stephen Hunt would never again wear an Irish shirt.

[Billsthoughts]

Mmmmm I think I was slated here before for saying basically what tets79 said about the bubblegum...ahem I mean "holding" midfielder craze.
Only thing I got from this tournament is that we didnt deserve to be there as we arent good enough. We play atrocious football in comparison to even the mid rank teams which in our ignorance we look down on. No amount of rearranging of the deck chairs is going to change that in the short term. We need to look at a system which sends all our best young players abroad at a very young age to learn their trade in a league were technique for the most part is poor.the majority of them coming home to be branded failures. We need to call it what it is. Madness.

[Stuttgart88]

Now now Bill, I stood by you on the "holding midfielder" argument, and also on the quality of "football" we play.

I'm inclined in all my optimism to agree with Third Policeman though. Build a solid foundation and populate the top part of the pitch with our better attacking / footballing players and we'd probably see an improvement, though I doubt we can disregard Hunt so bluntly.

[seanfhear]

I think that this might hav been the tournament of the shortarse.xavi, iniesta, arshavin,villa, modric.sneider

[RogerMilla]

the tournament of the wiley old fox . Aragones and Terim out-thought all the younger less experienced managers. bodes well for ireland.

[Wolfie]

the tournament of the wiley old fox . Aragones and Terim out-thought all the younger less experienced managers. bodes well for ireland.

True - but out-thinking a team tactically will only make a difference if your players can put it into practice.

[superfrank]

- Our first 2 goalkeepers are as good as anyone's.
So Given and Kiley are as good as Casillas and Palop or Buffon and Amelia?

[Stuttgart88]

Superfrank, I thought there were a lot of weak keepers at the tournment to be honest - Russia's keeper and Ricardo spring to mind, Rustu for Turkey made costly errors and Cech showed some big game weakness again - and whilst I think Casillas is a truly top class keeper I thought he did little that I haven't seen from Shay playing for Ireland. In fact I thought he punched when he could have caught a few times if I was to be picky. Buffon is formidable. I was simply pointing out that at top international level it's not at goalkeeping level that we're lacking.

Re- the tournament of the shortarses, I accept that the smaller more technical player prevailed. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that - it was pretty obvious in the end:). I guess I had Martin Samuel's citing of the old adage "a good big one will always beat a good little one" after the Germany vs Portugal game. It turned out in the end that Germany weren't even a good big one.

Can we accomodate our smaller players in classic 4-4-2? We haven't been able to recently.

[Billsthoughts]

Now now Bill, I stood by you on the "holding midfielder" argument, and also on the quality of "football" we play.

I know. It wasnt aimed out you. Just a general comment on peoples propensity on here to jump on whatever the latest perceived "truth" is.

As for the quality of the team....If you were to ask yourself would us being there have contributed anything to the tournament you would have to say no. I want us to do well but I just think our problems our more deep rooted than picking Duff or Hunt. We have a class managment team at the mo but I dont think they will achieve much with the team we have.

[OwlsFan]

We have a class managment team at the mo but I dont think they will achieve much with the team we have.

We don't have to aspire to be a Spain. Look at Germany. Dour, dogged, commited and organised and got to the final with average centre halves.

[Reality Bites]

I know. It wasnt aimed out you. Just a general comment on peoples propensity on here to jump on whatever the latest perceived "truth" is.

As for the quality of the team....If you were to ask yourself would us being there have contributed anything to the tournament you would have to say no. I want us to do well but I just think our problems our more deep rooted than picking Duff or Hunt. We have a class managment team at the mo but I dont think they will achieve much with the team we have.

That Spanish Midfield would murder us, and Torres would have a battle with Dunne but over 90 minutes you would have to fancy his chances, don't even think about McShane or O'Brien its just too scary

[cavan_fan]

Mmmmm I think I was slated here before for saying basically what tets79 said about the bubblegum...ahem I mean "holding" midfielder craze.
Only thing I got from this tournament is that we didnt deserve to be there as we arent good enough. We play atrocious football in comparison to even the mid rank teams which in our ignorance we look down on. No amount of rearranging of the deck chairs is going to change that in the short term. We need to look at a system which sends all our best young players abroad at a very young age to learn their trade in a league were technique for the most part is poor.the majority of them coming home to be branded failures. We need to call it what it is. Madness.

Bah humbug!

There is much for us to learn here but one thing I would caution is being too attracted by following trends. There are phases in football. This tournament has been about attacking, fast football especially by teams with good technique. This is not our area of strength so this was a tournament largely dominated by southern rather than northern eurrope. Things will change again and we may need to wait for that.

In fact we are not currently very good at our traditional game (no big striker, not great from set pieces, weak in defence, no midfield enforcer. ) The problem we would have playing in the same way as Holland or Spain is a lack of pace. We dont break fast and I'm not sure we have the players to do it.

I'd suggest we dont try to change too radically. At the next tournament there will be loads of teams playing a poor impression of the Spanish game from this tournament. You may find there is some success for the teams who find a way to counteract this. I'd be especially happy if people took from thisthat you dont need a midfielder capable of winning the ball and not giving it away cheaply.

[Wolfie]

An element of horses for courses required for the short term.

Free flowing, Globe Trotters attack heavy football may not be the smartest approach in a glamorous away qualifier to Georgia, et all.

Sometimes you've got to box clever.

[Stuttgart88]

If you were to ask yourself would us being there have contributed anything to the tournament you would have to say no. I agree but it's worth asking if there are lessons to learn that could make us better.

[Billsthoughts]

We don't have to aspire to be a Spain. Look at Germany. Dour, dogged, commited and organised and got to the final with average centre halves.

Can you point out anywhere I said we need to be as good as Spain? And btw you are totally downplaying a German team that at times in the tournament was playing fast passing attacking football the likes of which no Ireland team has ever played.

[cavan_fan]

True - but out-thinking a team tactically will only make a difference if your players can put it into practice.

True but Terim managed to put it into practice with players including Colin Kazim Richards, a guy who would not get into the Ireland squad (in fact given his reputation as a Championship jounreyman, I'd suggest David Connolly move to Turkey and renames hhimself as Connolly Connolly)

[Wolfie]

True but Terim managed to put it into practice with players including Colin Kazim Richards, a guy who would not get into the Ireland squad (in fact given his reputation as a Championship jounreyman, I'd suggest David Connolly move to Turkey and renames hhimself as Connolly Connolly)

I think Trapp could have the team well drilled and everyone will know what is expected of them - its first principles, but even that is an improvement.

You've got to start somewhere and Organisation, commitment and attitude is a good place to start.

[shakermaker1982]

We lack players who are comfortable on the ball (Andy Reid, Duff, McGeady and Keane being the exceptions but how often are those 4 fit at the same time?). Consequently our first instinct is to hit it long but as we lack any physical menace the ball keeps coming back.

Senna was exceptional throughout the whole tournament. He isn't just a spoiler, this guy can go 20 yards and pick a pass all day long without looking flustered. No offence to Carsley but passing sideways and back to Given/Dunne/O'Shea gets us nowhere.

I really don't know where we go from here. I'm excited we have the Trap and know we will be well organised but there is only so much he can do. One of our key men/star players will really need to step up to the plate in the next campaign and carry this team forward. For us to qualify I reckon Keane needs to translate his Spurs form into the green shirt, Duff needs 18 months of injury free football and Dunne needs a buddy at centre back.

[mark12345]

Top marks to you brother - this is the best post I've read in a very long time. You obviously have a strong grounding in coaching and an eye for detail because everything you say here is true - particularly the part about playing the ball blindly down the channel like our full-backs do.

You correctly point out also that other teams don't involve themselves in speculative passes like we do and you also note the roles of a ball winner and distributor in midfield - good to see that someone on this board knows what they're talking about, because I was beginning to wonder about some of the posts.

I have my own template for how the game should be played (which is almost identical to yours) and I know I'll be measuring Ireland's performances on the road to WC 2010 by these standards. It's simple really, you don't lose the ball needlessly, defend in numbers and be patient in trying to spring the opposition defence. There are three factors in the making of any player - first touch (ie control), shielding the ball, and changing direction. It's baby simple but some of our players fall down on the basics at times.

Anyway here's looking forward to Georgia and Montenegro in ten weeks time. I hope Trap can transform us into a team to be reckoned with.

[John83]

...There are three factors in the making of any player - first touch (ie control), shielding the ball, and changing direction. It's baby simple but some of our players fall down on the basics at times...
I don't know about you, but I like a player who can pass.

[Emmet]

Only thing I got from this tournament is that we didnt deserve to be there as we arent good enough. We play atrocious football in comparison to even the mid rank teams which in our ignorance we look down on. No amount of rearranging of the deck chairs is going to change that in the short term.I agree 100% with that. Austria and Switzerland were there simply because they were the co-hosts and it was obvious neither side would have gotten there if they had to qualify. That's where we are right now too. The current squad is probably the weakest Irish squad in three decades.



We need to look at a system which sends all our best young players abroad at a very young age to learn their trade in a league were technique for the most part is poor.The English league traditionally did not place too much emphasis on skills or technique but in the last five years it has stepped up several notches and become the strongest league in Europe. Platini is correct when he says this is largely down to money but the fact remains the best players in the world currently play in England. Maybe you were referring to the Championship or League 1? But the English Premier League is going through something of a golden period at the moment. If we want our players to play anywhere, then it is there.

the majority of them coming home to be branded failures.That's because they aren't good enough. No other reason.

[cavan_fan]

Only thing I got from this tournament is that we didnt deserve to be there as we arent good enough. We play atrocious football in comparison to even the mid rank teams which in our ignorance we look down on.

Atrocious compared to:
Poland?
Romania?
Greece?
Sweden?

Not to mention the 2 hosts. There is a temptation to overestimate the novelty.

[Billsthoughts]

That's because they aren't good enough. No other reason.

Everything wrong with the Irish supporter in one sentance.
:(

[Billsthoughts]

Atrocious compared to:
Poland?
Romania?
Greece?
Sweden?

Not to mention the 2 hosts. There is a temptation to overestimate the novelty.

Everyone of these teams would beat us. All bar greece play a brand of football that seems beyond us.

[kennedmc]

It was a very enjoyable tournament.

THe main lesson is the one i feared most. Because of our reliance on English football and the ways of the English game our technique is so far off some of those other teams.

England can get away with it due to the sheer number of players they have - more often than not the likes of the Rooneys, Gerrards etc can produce abit of brilliance to get a result etc. So they will more often than not qualify for tournaments and do ok -quarter finals / semis etc.

However even though they have some very good individuals these players still lack technique (don't confuse technique and skill).

I believe in the short term we are fuvked. We need to totally transform the way football is coached in this country starting from 7/8 year olds. We need to divorce our game from the English way of thinking and in reality we probably need to retrain a large % of the coaches that coach youth football in this country.

We will reap the benefits in 10 / 15 years time.

[Emmet]

Everything wrong with the Irish supporter in one sentance.
:(So you're saying there is a big conspiracy in England against talented young Irish players? :rolleyes: Football is a business - if those players are good enough and deliver the goods on the pitch, they will get their contracts and they will get their games. If they aren't good enough, and they don't perform then they won't. It really is that simple. Who exactly were you referring to btw?

[eirebhoy]

Excellent post Stutts.

I genuinely believe S.Ireland, S.Reid and A.Reid individually could play in the Croatian team without making them any worse. It's just how well they'll play together alongside McGeady and Duff.

btw, tets - house is being renovated since March so no internet. Started new job this month. Was in Spain recently. Hectic, non stop life I'm living atm. ;)

[Billsthoughts]

It was a very enjoyable .......


So you're saying there is a big conspiracy in England against talented young Irish players? :rolleyes: Football is a business - if those players are good enough and deliver the goods on the pitch, they will get their contracts and they will get their games. If they aren't good enough, and they don't perform then they won't. It really is that simple. Who exactly were you referring to btw?

:rolleyes:
see post above yours for a sensible post.
you honestly cant see anything ludicrous with on the one hand hoping we have a good international team that can compete in these tournaments and on the other having no system whatsover to nurture our own players? to just throw young lads into a foriegn country in the hope that some of them "make it" and branding them "not good enough" to be footballers if they cant make the first team at some of the top clubs in the world?
that to me sums up everything that is wrong with some football supporters in this country. see the international team as operating in some form of splendid isolation from everything else.

[ifk101]

Poland has its Guerreiro.
Portugal has its Deco.
Croatia has its Eduardo.
Turkey has its Aurelio.
And Spain has its Senna.

Ireland needs a Paddy-Brazilian.

[Stuttgart88]

I genuinely believe S.Ireland, S.Reid and A.Reid individually could play in the Croatian team without making them any worse. It's just how well they'll play together alongside McGeady and Duff.Dunne & Given and probably Robbie Keane could even enhance their team.

Bill's point from way back still stands though. We play atrocious football though that doesn't mean we wouldn't beat some of the teams mentioned. We show little composure and we have a fear of receiving & passing the ball properly - the basics that Roy Keane did so well to so little acclaim in some quarters. We play speculative passes up the pitch, all the time and from all positions. One thing I loved about Euro 2008 was watching the ball roll. Sounds simple but actually it's a rarity watching us play. This sounds mad, but only with Darren Potter in midfield have any of our performances in the last few years resembled any form of orthodoxy.

Back to goalkeepers: only 4 impressed me: Casillas, Buffon, Van Der Saar and Boruc. Many were very culpable: Cech, Rustu, the Russian keeper, Ricardo, Coupet and others. The Croat guy was decent from what I recall, not really sure!

[ifk101]

I don't think we can have an honest assessment of how good we are at this point in time. We know how good individually our players are, but we don't know how good they are as a team.

Whatever about the various individual merits of the EURO 2008 teams, all teams were organised and had a specific gameplan. We have a group of players that I believe that once they have a bit of organisation about them, only the top tier of teams in the World would fancy their chances of beating us. But looking at Spain and how they play the game is a little bit of "learning to run before you can walk". Basic team organisation is what we need first and foremost.

I believe Trapattoni can get us organised and add structure to our game. Once that's completed we do have players that can win games for us. I seen a lot of Sweden in the past 8-10 years and they don't have a better pick of players than us. But they continually qualify for major tournament time and time again playing the same tried and tested formation and tactics. Sweden is an example of how "doing your homework" can pay dividends and it's something we can learn from. Once we get that right we can take it to the next level.

[Emmet]

:rolleyes:
see post above yours for a sensible post.
you honestly cant see anything ludicrous with on the one hand hoping we have a good international team that can compete in these tournaments and on the other having no system whatsover to nurture our own players? to just throw young lads into a foriegn country in the hope that some of them "make it" and branding them "not good enough" to be footballers if they cant make the first team at some of the top clubs in the world?
that to me sums up everything that is wrong with some football supporters in this country. see the international team as operating in some form of splendid isolation from everything else.
Bill - lets leave aside the personal snipes and engage in a civil discussion. Please. Can you give me some straight answers:

Which Irish players were good enough to make it as senior internationals but didn't because they went to England?

Explain Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen ... the list could go on and on. Those players were 'nurtured' in England - they are not all English; some of them have come from further afield than Ireland and have had to learn a new language (which none of our youngsters have had to). What did they have that our youngsters didn't?

Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

[Billsthoughts]

1)Which Irish players were good enough to make it as senior internationals but didn't because they went to England?
2)Explain Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen ... the list could go on and on. Those players were 'nurtured' in England - they are not all English; some of them have come from further afield than Ireland and have had to learn a new language (which none of our youngsters have had to). What did they have that our youngsters didn't?
3)Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

Answer me this. do you honestly beleive that the present "system" (and I use the word lightly as it implies that some form of organisation goes into this on the part of the FAI) is the best way of ensuring that we have a strong pool of players to choose from?
Because you seem to be implying you think this with the above.
In answer to your questions -
1) Who knows? What I can say for certain is that the current lack of ANY proper system on our part is not the best way of maximising the potential of OUR players. The system you are talking about is the system used by English clubs to unearth potential players for THEMSELVES. If your saying that this is the same thing as if they are not good enough for the English clubs they are not good enough for us well then I disagree. Strongly.
2) I dont understand what you are trying to say with your second question. These are all good players. Your point being? These are good players that play in England therefore its in our best interests to send our young players to England? I dont see how you make that leap. England play just as limited football as us. I dont think Euro 08 was any the poorer for their absence.
3) Couple of things on this. firstly with bosman we wont have this amount of players playing at top English clubs EVER again. That is a fact.
Even leaving that aside we are still relying on outside forces that dont have our best interests at heart to provide us with a playing base. Can you not see the madness in that?
They were great acheivements you mentioned and I wouldnt discount us totally from doing something similar at some point in the future. But if we did it wouldnt be due to any grassroots organisation on our part.

Stutts I dont doubt we can get results against anyone on our day. But what could we achieve if we really got our act together and organised football properly in this country?

[Emmet]

1) What I can say for certain is that the current lack of ANY proper system on our part is not the best way of maximising the potential of OUR players. The system you are talking about is the system used by English clubs to unearth potential players for THEMSELVES. If your saying that this is the same thing as if they are not good enough for the English clubs they are not good enough for us well then I disagree. Strongly.English clubs are not even remotely concerned about the English national team - if a player is English, Irish, Spanish to them it makes no difference. What they are concerned with is how good that player is. If he is good and he can play then he will help them win promotion / qualify for Europe / compete for trophies (depending on the aspirations of that particular club of course). The player's nationality is of absolutely no relevance to them whatsoever.




2) I dont understand what you are trying to say with your second question. These are all good players. Your point being? These are good players that play in England therefore its in our best interests to send our young players to England? I dont see how you make that leap. England play just as limited football as us. I dont think Euro 08 was any the poorer for their absence.
My point was that the system used in England cannot be that bad if it produces players of this calibre. You need to remember that a significant number of managers and their coaches are from outside of the UK - particularly in the English Premier League. The fact that Steve McLaren got anywhere near the England job shows how few decent English coaches there are around! I agree with you about the English team not being at Euro 2008 and how much better the tournament was because of that - but again you need to make a distinction between the England team and the English league. My point is that for a player to play alongside some of the players who play in the English League can only be beneficial. I couldn't give a monkeys about the English team!




3) Couple of things on this. firstly with bosman we wont have this amount of players playing at top English clubs EVER again. That is a fact.
Even leaving that aside we are still relying on outside forces that dont have our best interests at heart to provide us with a playing base. Can you not see the madness in that?
I'll admit it is not ideal but I don't necessarily believe that having a strong domestic league will bring us better players. Scotland for instance have a strong league and have had for a while ... their national team is pretty much on a par with ours though. When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?

[ifk101]

I agree with you Emmet. Reserve and lower league English football will continue to produce the calibre of players we are currently enjoying.

[kennedmc]

Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

Explain how Uruguay won 2 world cups?

[Billsthoughts]

English clubs are not even remotely concerned about the English national team ............

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?

[Emmet]

ifk101 - My point is that if those players were more talented and had more natural ability then they would not be in the reserves or lower leagues of English football. No Irish player has had the natural ability to 'make it' but failed to because he went to England. The clubs in the English league will spot the players who are good enough and reject those who aren't. This belief that we have an abundance of talented young players who are being let down by the English for some inexplicable reason is simply a myth without any kind of rational explanation.

kennedmc - Uruguay won the inaugral 1930 World Cup which they were the hosts an then did not enter the 1934 or 1938 tournaments because those tournaments were held in Europe and so many European teams (including Ireland) chose not to participate in the 1930 tournament because they felt it was too far to travel. They won the 1950 World Cup held in Brazil. I wasn't around at the time but presumably they won both tournaments because they had some good players who could play.

[Emmet]

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?Bill I did ask you 'When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?' yet for some reason you didn't answer ... it's very easy to moan and whine but not so easy to be constructive and offer positive suggestions and ideas, eh?

[Greenforever]

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?


Scotland qualified for 4 sucessive world cups from 74 to 86 but I don't think the foriegn invasion happened in Scotland till well into the 90s or even after the turn of the century.