9-11 Conspiracies

[Angus]

Tricky and emotive one this morning boys and girls.

Just watched a DVD called Loose Change which is a study of the official story of the 9-11 events.

It seeks to find holes in the official story and presents an analysis of various pieces of physical evidence. It also identifies serious problems with what has become conventional wisdom.

Now, I start off being seriously sceptical of this community given the propensity of freak jobs to play in that space. Having said that, just because you don't buy the official line does not mean you are a freak job.

Having seen this, I end up way short of the conclusion of the filmmaker but accept that there are serious problems with official or conventional wisdom.

Where do we stand on this ?

[anto1208]

Ah is this the conspiracy that in 2001 the 9th of November happened in September ?.

[Billsthoughts]

I actually only heard the Jim Corr thing on this last week. Seems like there are a few questions to be answered alright.

[jebus]

No conspriacy theory in regards the WTC, they were attacked by terrorists. The flight 316 (was it? the 'Let's Roll' flight) was obviously shot down by the American air force for security reasons. The Pentagon didn't have a plane flown into it, it was more likely a suicide bomber, or explosive of some sort. The size of the hole and the lack of airplane debris all but confirm that.

This story has been done to death

[pete]

Pick any event with mass attention & it is possible to come up the wildest theories.

[GavinZac]

pretty sure there's a huge thread on this already

[Lionel Ritchie]

The Pentagon didn't have a plane flown into it, it was more likely a suicide bomber, or explosive of some sort. The size of the hole and the lack of airplane debris all but confirm that.

This story has been done to death

I'm inclined to agree about the Pennsylvania plane being shot down ...and you know what, given the split second decisions that had to be made, I'd probably have shot it down too.

But the pentagon attack ...I'm quite confident, having seen a few conspiracy theory videos, that it was indeed hit by a plane. Isn't there someone out there who narrowly avoided having a chunk of undercarriage land on their car?

[jebus]

I'm inclined to agree about the Pennsylvania plane being shot down ...and you know what, given the split second decisions that had to be made, I'd probably have shot it down too.

But the pentagon attack ...I'm quite confident, having seen a few conspiracy theory videos, that it was indeed hit by a plane. Isn't there someone out there who narrowly avoided having a chunk of undercarriage land on their car?

Fully agree that shooting down the plane was the right move, it would be hard to get the families of the victims to understand, but they were going to die anyway

The hole in the side of the Pentagon, more so the size of it, makes me think that it wasn't a plane that hit it. I've seen photos of the site after the damage and there doesn't seem to be any plane debris either so I'd be suspicious of that

[OwlsFan]

Covered to some extent here:

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=92275

What I love about these theories is the number of people who have to assist in implenting the plan and killing their own people and there is no leak or no one ever eventually comes forward and says "I blew up the Twin Towers".

[anto1208]

Covered to some extent here:

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=92275

What I love about these theories is the number of people who have to assist in implenting the plan and killing their own people and there is no leak or no one ever eventually comes forward and says "I blew up the Twin Towers".

Thats because they are killed really quickly when they go to talk ! ;)

[Risteard]

I thought Loose Change was totally discredited even by its makers.
Will dig out quotes there later but they definitely had to redo it a few times as some of the theories put forward were so flimsy originally.

[OwlsFan]

There was a programme last night on the 9-11 conspiracy and the collapse of the building beside the Twin Towers. Only came in at the end to hear a fireman say that these conspiracies disrespect the lives of the many firemen who died but didn't see the rest of the programme. Anyone see it?

[shakermaker1982]

There was a programme last night on the 9-11 conspiracy and the collapse of the building beside the Twin Towers. Only came in at the end to hear a fireman say that these conspiracies disrespect the lives of the many firemen who died but didn't see the rest of the programme. Anyone see it?

I watched the last 30 minutes. The chief investigator was not the most convincing of sorts, they are currently building an engineering model to try and find out why tower 7 fell.

They had the guy from loose change on and I'm surprised he hasn't had an 'accident' :D i.e. assassinated by the CIA to shut him up. His time will come.

[noby]

I saw a little piece of it. In the bit I saw they were talking about how they have come to the conclusion that it was office fires, and not all the fuel from the plane, that weakened the structures, and ultimately brought the tower down. To help confirm this, in another of the nearby buildings half of the interior had collapsed in a similar way, with no planes or 'bombs', just fires burning.
Then I went back to the tennis.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think it was a repeat of the programme that went out a few days ago. Very little in it to convince me that there's anything substantially fishy about September 11th.

I think America and the west in general is a better place due to the vigilance, cynicism and 'Question Everything' attitude of the likes of the young lad who made Loose Change. But he's well off target with his theories on this one, is dismissive of bankable evidence and impartial eyewitness accounts and, in general, he's a bit of a pound-shop Michael Moore.

[pete]

Saw the second half of last nights show & the one quote that summed it up was an attempt to explain the conspiracy theorists as "...picked holes in official explanation but not joining them together"

If you look long enough at something you will see inconsistencies but does not mean you can join together to make alternative credible explanation. A lot of it can be explained by state bureaucracy & ineptitude.

I think the people shown at ground level handing out free DVDs are disrespectful to the those that died.

[seanfhear]

one thing that i find hard to grasp about sept11 is how could the security services of such a powerful country be so inept as to allow so many[dedicated terrorists] such easy acess into their country.It was not just four or five but twenty three I think.Thats a lot of terrorists no matter how bad the security agencies are.

[dahamsta]

I think the larger conspiracy theories are ridiculous, particularly the muppets who think that the police, fire service and Tom, Dick and Harry are involved. Anyone with any experience at all of groups of people would know that if you put more than a few people together they simply won't be able to keep a secret, never mind civil servants with office politics, axes to grind, chips on shoulders, etc. It says more about the people making the claims than the people they're accusing.

All that being said, I do believe that there was a policy of turning a blind eye at presidential advisor level, letting what might happen happen. Sorry, but the hawks are hawks and they don't care about people, bar themselves.

And yes, I would include Bush in that, I believe he allows himself to be puppetted. He's a very stupid man, but he's not a vegetable.

adam

[jebus]

one thing that i find hard to grasp about sept11 is how could the security services of such a powerful country be so inept as to allow so many[dedicated terrorists] such easy acess into their country.It was not just four or five but twenty three I think.Thats a lot of terrorists no matter how bad the security agencies are.

And how do you propose a country as large as America stops unknown terrorists from ever getting into their country? It's what makes this war on terror so idiotic, the idea that you can stop people that want to sacrifice themselves to further their own causes. You can't, you just have to try and solve the route of the problem (what's driving these people to do these things) and hope that you can derail as many terrorist threats as is possible

[seanfhear]

I think the larger conspiracy theories are ridiculous, particularly the muppets who think that the police, fire service and Tom, Dick and Harry are involved. Anyone with any experience at all of groups of people would know that if you put more than a few people together they simply won't be able to keep a secret, never mind civil servants with office politics, axes to grind, chips on shoulders, etc. It says more about the people making the claims than the people they're accusing.

All that being said, I do believe that there was a policy of turning a blind eye at presidential advisor level, letting what might happen happen. Sorry, but the hawks are hawks and they don't care about people, bar themselves.

And yes, I would include Bush in that, I believe he allows himself to be puppetted. He's a very stupid man, but he's not a vegetable.

adam
I agree with you there.The authorities knew that aeroplanes were vunerable and had been warned of this possibility up to ten years previously.If you were in the terrorism prevention business and with the advent of suicide terrorists it is unlikely that the possibility of this happening would not have been contemplated.One of the reasons given for not dealing with it is that because the american people had not suffered that much from terrorism they would have been unwilling to put up with the restrictions necessary.If the neocons were not complicit then they certainly were only too happy to take advantage ofsept11 to advance their agenda

[dahamsta]

I would add that I also believe that there's a very high level of basic incompetence involved. The actions of the administration, their offices, and senators and representatives post-911 prove that definitively. The security theatre the entire developed world has been subjected to because of their incompetence alone proves that, never mind things like voting for the Patriot Act without reading it, spending trillions on undeclared "wars", etc, etc.

adam

[bennocelt]

I think the larger conspiracy theories are ridiculous, particularly the muppets who think that the police, fire service and Tom, Dick and Harry are involved. Anyone with any experience at all of groups of people would know that if you put more than a few people together they simply won't be able to keep a secret, never mind civil servants with office politics, axes to grind, chips on shoulders, etc. It says more about the people making the claims than the people they're accusing.

All that being said, I do believe that there was a policy of turning a blind eye at presidential advisor level, letting what might happen happen. Sorry, but the hawks are hawks and they don't care about people, bar themselves.

adam


Yeah def agree here. A lot of the conspiracies are bizarre and only a fool would go on about them. The real conspiracy is that the hawks etc knew damn well whay was happening, ala pearl harbour

that programme was rubbish. they should have devoted it all to Steve Austin who is a legend of a man

if you want to see how a government can conspire against its own people then check out Dispatches last report on Chechynia, and you will get a real sense that the Russian government were directing a lot of the terrorist attacks. it was scary stuff watching that show, sorry i havent a link

[OwlsFan]

The real conspiracy is that the hawks etc knew damn well what was happening, ala pearl harbour

Pearl Harbour was just more incompetence and not a conspiracy.

[Cymro]

The BBC documentary about 9/11 was shown about four or five times this week in the late night slot. It covered the views of 'Loose Change', the official account and independent analysts.

You can never be sure with this sort of thing but really I think Loose Change have an axe to grind against the US government (as so many do over there) and are just looking for reasons to have a go at it. Their theory sounds plausible until your hear the rebuttal to it, which sounds more plausible, and the independent analysts backed it up. That, and I don't think any administration would actually devise such a large-scale plot to damage its own country. Maybe one or two indivduals at a high level might get involved with a plot but the kind of thing Loose Change were suggesting would have taken so many people that someone would almost certainly have grassed on the conspirators.

[anto1208]

The BBC documentary about 9/11 was shown about four or five times this week in the late night slot. It covered the views of 'Loose Change', the official account and independent analysts.

You can never be sure with this sort of thing but really I think Loose Change have an axe to grind against the US government (as so many do over there) and are just looking for reasons to have a go at it. Their theory sounds plausible until your hear the rebuttal to it, which sounds more plausible, and the independent analysts backed it up. That, and I don't think any administration would actually devise such a large-scale plot to damage its own country. Maybe one or two indivduals at a high level might get involved with a plot but the kind of thing Loose Change were suggesting would have taken so many people that someone would almost certainly have grassed on the conspirators.

Have you seen the rebutal to the BBC one ? :D it goes on and on the problem with them is one is put foward with convincing arguments they can spout off facts that normal people wouldnt know it they are true or not.


Why do people think the goverment could be behind it ? because thats how they think.

http://conspiraciesthatweretrue.blogspot.com/2007/01/list-of-proven-conspiracies-from.html

1962 Operation Northwoods
Operation Northwoods or Northwoods was the code name for various proposals for false flag actions, including domestic terror attacks on U.S. soil, proposed in 1962 by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders to generate U.S. public support for military action against Cuba. The proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba," a draft memorandum pdf) written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group. The draft memo was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. However, McNamara rejected the proposal. The draft memorandum was declassified in recent years through a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive.



Sound familar it would only take a hand full of people in the know to pull it off and when they are all creaming millions off the war effort why would you open your mouth???

[bennocelt]

Pearl Harbour was just more incompetence and not a conspiracy.


not really, they didnt make any mistakes, a lot of them knew exactly what they were doing

as i was saying with ref to russia and chenynia. Sleeper terrorist cells always have a chain of command. When you infilitrate this command you can get the terrorists to follow orders of any kind, play them around a bit.
this was what you got from watching the Dispatches programme. Now if the Russians can do it, sure why not the FBI/CIA?

You dont need all that garbage about phantom planes etc, all the FBI/FBI/american gov needed were willing terrorists to follow a few orders in the chain of command and then watch it all pan out

Action and result - 911 brought us Homeland security etc, and the bombing of Afganistan and Iraq (aka pumping billions of oil out everyday while everybody else is watching the war!)

[jebus]

However, McNamara rejected the proposal

There's the key sentence though. Do you know how many hair-brained schemes the US defence department have come up with throughout the years? I've read plans from presenting Castro with exploding cuban cigars, to putting the pro-Capitalist Vietnamese on boats, nuking Vietnam and then sinking the boats, thus 'sorting' the Vietnam problem once and for all. There's a big difference between ideas being proposed, to them actually being approved.

I have no doubt that the hawks took advantage of 9/11 for their own financial gain, but again there's a big difference between taking advantage of a situation and being the founder of the situation, and so far there is no concrete evidence that any of the Bush adminstration or his ilk had anything to do with the terror attacks that day

[GavinZac]

If anyone wants to read a good book about the hare brained schemes the US military comes up with, The Men Who Stare At Goats is a good one.

The title references a team of psy-ops commandos being trained in the US desert, trying to kill goats by staring at them. A minor increase in heart rate was all they achieved and even then, your heart rate would go up if someone was staring at you, wouldn't it?

[seanfhear]

not really, they didnt make any mistakes, a lot of them knew exactly what they were doing

as i was saying with ref to russia and chenynia. Sleeper terrorist cells always have a chain of command. When you infilitrate this command you can get the terrorists to follow orders of any kind, play them around a bit.
this was what you got from watching the Dispatches programme. Now if the Russians can do it, sure why not the FBI/CIA?

You dont need all that garbage about phantom planes etc, all the FBI/FBI/american gov needed were willing terrorists to follow a few orders in the chain of command and then watch it all pan out

Action and result - 911 brought us Homeland security etc, and the bombing of Afganistan and Iraq (aka pumping billions of oil out everyday while everybody else is watching the war!)
Good post and definetly a real possibility.Certainly more realistic than many of the hairbrain 9/11 conspiracies which seem only to stop any doubts of the official version.Perhaps that is the function of the far out theorys.

[bennocelt]

If anyone wants to read a good book about the hare brained schemes the US military comes up with, The Men Who Stare At Goats is a good one.



wow thanks for reminding me about that. I havent read that book but C4 i think did a documentary about it a while back and it was really weird, and to think that these guys had huge financial backing from the government

[hoops1]

Couple of facts that I like about 911.
3.2 Trillion announced missing from the Pentagon budgets on Sep 10th and
the side that was hit was housing the investigation offices.

Some of the hijackers turning up on various Tv stations in the middle east saying it wasnt me boss im here.

The hijackers passports turning up in the rubble( ye give me a break)

Larry Silversteins "I told them to pull it" reference to WTC7 collapse on CBS

[Student Mullet]

Couple of facts that I like about 911.
3.2 Trillion announced missing from the Pentagon budgets on Sep 10th and
the side that was hit was housing the investigation offices.

Some of the hijackers turning up on various Tv stations in the middle east saying it wasnt me boss im here.

The hijackers passports turning up in the rubble( ye give me a break)

Larry Silversteins "I told them to pull it" reference to WTC7 collapse on CBS

Also, a one armed man was seen leaving the vicinity shortly before the bombs went off.

[jebus]

Couple of facts that I like about 911.
3.2 Trillion announced missing from the Pentagon budgets on Sep 10th and
the side that was hit was housing the investigation offices.

Some of the hijackers turning up on various Tv stations in the middle east saying it wasnt me boss im here.

The hijackers passports turning up in the rubble( ye give me a break)

Larry Silversteins "I told them to pull it" reference to WTC7 collapse on CBS

Did you also gasp when the papers showed the face of Satan appearing in the smoke looming over Manhatten that day?

[Wangball]

If anyone wants to read a good book about the hare brained schemes the US military comes up with, The Men Who Stare At Goats is a good one

This is quite a good read...The aurthor, John Ronson, has also written another one called "Them" and it includes a lot on the whole Bilderberg/NeoCon new world order conspiracy guff so its essential reading for all of you conspiracy loons!!!:D

[seanfhear]

Also, a one armed man was seen leaving the vicinity shortly before the bombs went off.
If only we could catch this man he is very elusive.

[cheifo]

That young lad who made loose change came across as someone who has a lot of growing up to do.Very annoying.
The most credible of the conspiracy theories IMO concerns the killing of RFK where new evidence seem to suggest it(the official line) is at least worth reviewing.
Quite incredible that Bin Laden was never brought to justice today "smaller World" while over 3000(?) young Americans died in a completely unneccesary War.
I only mention Americans, because if Bush had said in the aftermath of 9\11
-I will double the number of Americans dead and not catch the guy who planned this, he would have been telling the truth.
I know this is stating the obvious, but it is just bewildering how right wing media can convince people otherwise.
Still, a lot of his mates got juicy contracts so thats the important thing.

[jebus]

This is the best book on the Neocons (or the New Dumb as Dr.Thompson referred to them) I've read so far. Absolutely love the title too, but any book that cuts into Bill O'Reilly gets two thumbs up from me

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Lies_and_the_lying_liars.jpg

[hoops1]

Did you also gasp when the papers showed the face of Satan appearing in the smoke looming over Manhatten that day?

I didnt say that I thought there was a connspiracy, Just that there is some good ammo for conspiracy theorists

[jebus]

Charlie Brooker personally taking issue with Foot.ie posters in the Guardian today?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/14/september11.usa

[ccfcman]

Did you also gasp when the papers showed the face of Satan appearing in the smoke looming over Manhatten that day?

Thats the err official Hell photo released I presume :>

[jebus]

Thats the err official Hell photo released I presume :>

Yep :) Depending on what tabloid you saw around Sept 13th that year the smoke either became the face of the devil or the face of Bin Laden.

[eamo1]

My uncle in law was killed in the wtc attacks on 9-11,1 of the many things that gets me is taht they said they found passports in the rubble from the hijackers yet they only found half my uncles body,lower half.Now last time i checked things like teeth and bone marrow are ALOT harder to burn then paper and plastic from a passport!!!!!!!!Yet,somehow it was the reverse on this day,YA RIGHT.
i use to not care about all these theories etc and only cared about my Aunt and my cousins but even my Aunt is now watching some of these videos and asking questions.

[OwlsFan]

Another conspiracy theory is that the Americans torpedoed and sunk the nuclear submarine, Kursk. Saw a documentary on the History Channel which was almost treating this theory as fact :rolleyes:

[anto1208]

Another conspiracy theory is that the Americans torpedoed and sunk the nuclear submarine, Kursk. Saw a documentary on the History Channel which was almost treating this theory as fact :rolleyes:

The dirty barstewards they are all ways up to something