Italy

[kingdomkerry]

Holland hammered them 3-0 tonight. So maybe the Italians are'nt as good as made out to be and wont have it all their own way in Group 8 of the WC qualifiers.

[Maroon 7]

No Cannavaro or Nesta but that Italian team looks old and slow.

Definitely not a team to be afraid of anyway.

[kingdomkerry]

And Trapatonni will know them inside out

[beepbeep]

theyll still beat us.

[Noelys Guitar]

Don't write them off yet. I don't think Donadoni knows what hes doing. No De Rossi in midfield is a Stanesque type decision. With him back the Italian's are a different team. I still expect the Italian's to get to the semi's at least.

[Hibernian]

still long way go in competition. remember USA 94?? But have say was encouraged by that a little they can play better and have few players not playing.

I think Holland proved that Italy are no worldbeaters at present but would not jump with joy just yet. There bound too be a backlash too from Italy

[Bungle]

to be honest, whether italy have a nightmare of a tournament or whether they wn it, I have no doubt that they will have a completely different teamsheet come september.

there are some outstanding young italian talents coming through and still enough top class old pros for them to be one of the best teams in the world in the next campaign.

I do see them dropping points, even at home. however, that is nothing new with italy, even with their great teams.

[NeilMcD]

Itally will have a new manager and team when we play them. Only 2 players under 30 started tonight and Del Piero was brought on and he is 33 so they are an ageing team and the manager will be gone so I would not look into it too much. By the time we play them they will be settled in nicely with a new manager and new look team.

[Philbert]

Italy - (Cannavaro + Nesta) = F*cked

No further analysis needed

[stojkovic]

Nesta is retired so shouldnt come into the equation.

Italy have a shocking record in the Euros compared to the World Cup they dont seem to treat it the same.

If an over-rated French team dont beat them, Spain will in the QFs.

That said, they are an old team and not many of them will be around come next April (?) when we play them.

They WILL win our WC2010 qualifying group.

[gilberto_eire]

On the other hand they were terribly unlucky, an offside goal, then a ball cleared off the line results in the second goal. Toni's 1 v 1 miss and Grosso making a mess of that shot before the Dutch got the 3rd, it was'nt a normal 3-0 by any means!!

Still hope they lose there 3 games, can only help our cause!

[geysir]

The '82 Italy team would probably beat our team.

Maybe Italy have a poor young crop (by standards) who were not deemed better that the older lads.
As first seeds go, as it looks now, Italy are looking slightly more vulnerable than when the draw was made.
What does that mean? 1-4 out from 1-6 to top our group.

[Razors left peg]

Ive thought for a while that we have nothing to be afraid of in our group and if we have a bit of luck with injuries we are in with a great chance of topping the group and I seen nothing tonight to make me change my opinion.Most of the players in the Italy team are past it and they will be in transition for the next qualifiers.Scotland ran them very close in the qualifiers for this tournament and we have a better side than the Scots have.Also Serie A is going through a poor period at the moment and I dont think the next generation of Italian players that will replace some of these players are of the same standard.They will be by no means a push over but if Trapattoni can get a belief into our lot I am very confident

[boovidge]

italy were undone by two great counter attacking goals. If McGeady and Duff are on song then we could cause some damage. I think alot depends on how the new lads coming into the Italian side gel and also the spirit within the Italian camp. We will need alot of luck to get a result away (Holland got their fare share today)

[Maroon 7]

In fairness while Italy don't look any great shakes they'll probably still be good enough to win our group but certainly it may be possible to nick a couple of points off them along the way which could come in useful to us.

[stojkovic]

Ciaran,

Do you not think that Luca Toni is a stocking. I do.

And while you can mention all the goals he has scored in Serie A, I happen to think that Ibrahimovic and Trezequet are stockings aswell.

Not a patch on past Serie A strikers like Rossi, Batistuta, Del Piero (at his peak), Vialli, Ravanelli, van Basten, Careca, Signori, Inzaghi, Crespo, Shevchenko etc

[Razors left peg]

Someone is soaking up the RTE commentary nicely. :)

As a denizen of Italian soccer let me enlighten you. First of all the basics. Italy are not "missing" Totti or Nesta as so many people seem to be reporting. They're retired and have been for 2 years.

Next this whole "Italy are too old" debate is relatively worthless since they don't play a fast tempo game. Although if you're trying to use this as a pro for our chances look to their reserves. While the AC MIlan midfield trio are ageing the Roma midfield trio are youthful, in form and more than ready to take their place. De Rossi at the very least should have been playing instead of Ambrosini tonight.

And on tonight, the Dutch were lucky in the manner in which they scored. Italy had some dazzling moments which the commentary team felt it'd be too embarassing to highlight it would seem but on several occasions in the 2nd half Pirlo tore Holland apart, and he's in my opinion far and away the best passer of the ball in the world, and not far off best player in the world. The only real weak link in that team is the Matrix, who was rightfully taken off for Grosso.

The main problem they had tonight was that Camo and Di Natale didn't fire and that took the link out for Toni. It was a great idea on paper, but didn't work. But hey, look at their player pool. They can quit comfortably resort to Quag / Cassano next game behind Del Piero and qualify easily. I wouldn't bandwagon against this side, they're far too talented.

You definately seem to rate Serie A a bit higher than I do at the moment, their player pool isnt a patch on what it has been in past years

[Maroon 7]

Someone is soaking up the RTE commentary nicely. :)

As a denizen of Italian soccer let me enlighten you. First of all the basics. Italy are not "missing" Totti or Nesta as so many people seem to be reporting. They're retired and have been for 2 years.

Next this whole "Italy are too old" debate is relatively worthless since they don't play a fast tempo game. Although if you're trying to use this as a pro for our chances look to their reserves. While the AC MIlan midfield trio are ageing the Roma midfield trio are youthful, in form and more than ready to take their place. De Rossi at the very least should have been playing instead of Ambrosini tonight.

And on tonight, the Dutch were lucky in the manner in which they scored. Italy had some dazzling moments which the commentary team felt it'd be too embarassing to highlight it would seem but on several occasions in the 2nd half Pirlo tore Holland apart, and he's in my opinion far and away the best passer of the ball in the world, and not far off best player in the world. The only real weak link in that team is the Matrix, who was rightfully taken off for Grosso.

The main problem they had tonight was that Camo and Di Natale didn't fire and that took the link out for Toni. It was a great idea on paper, but didn't work. But hey, look at their player pool. They can quit comfortably resort to Quag / Cassano next game behind Del Piero and qualify easily. I wouldn't bandwagon against this side, they're far too talented.

Didn't actually watch the game on RTE. Keep forgetting Nesta has retired though. He seemed to be injured for ages so I always think he's injured rather than retired.

Bit OTT to say Italy had some glorious moments though. Their best moment was probably Pirlo's free-kick. Dutch were fairly comfortable after they went 2-0 up and seemed content to let the Italians have the ball in front of them. Italy didn't really look like scoring apart from Toni's chance which he made a horlicks of.

That said they will still be strong enough to win our group as ourselves and the Bulgarians just won't be good enough over the course of the group to top it but they are not to be feared.

[elroy]

I was surprised how average the Dutch team looked on paper anyway, particularly at the back, boulharouz, oojer?? But they played very well and were definitely the better team. Although Italy did have their chances. I still would fancy Italy to get out of the group, France were brutal.

[jmurphyc]

I think people are reading too much in to the result last night. It was a relatively even game and the Dutch were just very clinical. Italy are still an excellent side and they could still win the tournament. I'd still rate their chances of doing so as better than the Dutch's.

[Hibernian]

I think people are reading too much in to the result last night. It was a relatively even game and the Dutch were just very clinical. Italy are still an excellent side and they could still win the tournament. I'd still rate their chances of doing so as better than the Dutch's.

In a way I agree with you

But here's question.....

Would you have said the same thing had it been Ireland who were on the wrong end of that scoreline??

[Newryrep]

I thought Italy were the dominant side until the Dutch scored. The Dutch arent as good as they are being painted after the game and the Italiens arent as bad as they have been made out despite the 3-0 loss.

If there is a rematch in the final (as in Euro 88) my money would be on Italy. It was just one of those nights for the Dutch.

[EAFC_rdfl]

that won't be possible thanks to the pre-determined draw, they will meet at the semi-final stage afaik, if they both get out of the group and win their 1/4 finals.

[geysir]

I'll cheer for what I think might be slightly better for us.
Italy are now the enemy.
It has all the signs of a Disastero for them

Myself, I think the tomatoes are being stockpiled in Rome.

[Razors left peg]

Firstly, Luca Toni isn't a Serie A striker any more, next Del Piero's peak is right now given his 2nd half of the season form and how he not only finished top scorer but player of the season also.

And I'm not sure exactly what a "stocking" is supposed to mean, it's kind of an odd insult but if you're implying those three have no skill well then I'm dumbfounded. They're argubly the 3 best strikers in the world. What strikers would you class above them?

Seriously mate if you think that Ibrahimovic, Toni and Trezuquet are the three best strikers in the world you need your head examined. Do you honestly think they are better than Torres, Villa, Adebayour, Benzema, Henry, Tevez, Rooney,Drogba,Berberatov, Van Nistleroy,Eto,and I could name a lot more. Ibrahimovic is possibly the most over rated player in football,when it comes to the big occasion he flops just like he did in Champions league this year when he was needed most against Liverpool,he was awful in that tie. Trezuquet couldnt even make the French squad for this tournament and Toni while good in the air is very very slow.To claim that these 3 are the 3 best strikers in the world is your most ridiculous post in a long line of ridiculous posts

[FarBeag]

Seriously mate if you think that Ibrahimovic, Toni and Trezuquet are the three best strikers in the world you need your head examined. Do you honestly think they are better than Torres, Villa, Adebayour, Benzema, Henry, Tevez, Rooney,Drogba,Berberatov, Van Nistleroy,Eto,and I could name a lot more. Ibrahimovic is possibly the most over rated player in football,when it comes to the big occasion he flops just like he did in Champions league this year when he was needed most against Liverpool,he was awful in that tie. Trezuquet couldnt even make the French squad for this tournament and Toni while good in the air is very very slow.To claim that these 3 are the 3 best strikers in the world is your most ridiculous post in a long line of ridiculous posts

Exactly. I can't make my mind up on whether this Ciaran head is a total wind up merchant, a possible psychopath or just someone who knows nothing about football whatsoever?:confused:

[Supreme feet]

Unless some of these lauded young Italian players can step up to international level and inject some life into their ancient team, I think Italy could be in for one hell of a transitional period, ie. Germany during and after France '98. I don't think they will make it through, too many players are past their best, and Donadoni isn't the man to lift them up again after such a demoralising defeat. I can envisage a number of retirements after the tournament.

Come the 2010 qualifiers, they should have enough about them to top the group, but if they're rebuilding under a new manager, you never know. Trap has a lot of work to do with the Irish team, but the early fixtures are all winnable; if we can win the first two away games and keep on improving as the group goes on, we could run Italy close. Last night was encouraging, at the very least.

And Ciaran, Italian football, whether you like it or not, is not what it used to be. Rangers' workmanlike two-legged win over Fiorentina, Celtic's victory over Milan, Inter's feeble surrender against Liverpool, Italy's capitulation last night... These results aren't coincidental. There's a problem in Italian football. The young players just aren't there in enough numbers. De Natale was anonymous last night, when compared to the young Dutch lads like Engelaar and Affelay.

[boovidge]

Is Italy having a bad tournament beneficial for Ireland?

[Razors left peg]

You using Domenech's judgement as reason for Trezeguet's lack of worth is all I need to mention to dispell your opinion's worth. Trez was 2nd top scorer in Serie A this season, and he generally is most seasons. He's not there because he doesn't get on with Domenech, supposedly he slept with his wife. :D
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3428832&type=story

Im using the fact that Ive seen him play enough to make my own judgements and I agree with Domenechs decision not to have him in the French squad,Im still laughing at the comment that those 3 are the 3 best strikers in the world. At the moment I would rate Robbie Keane higher than Ibrahimovic and Trezuquet. And as for Tresuquet finishing second highest goal scorer in Serie A, Ive already mentioned that I have a pretty low opinion of the standard of Serie A these days

[Wolfie]

Is Italy having a bad tournament beneficial for Ireland?

Good question - a poor showing could re-double Italy's resolve for the 2010 qualifiers.

Complacency after a good showing can sometimes affect teams.

There'll be a lot of water under the bridge between now and April 09.

[paulie_walnuts]

Its one game kids. They could go out and beat France and beat Romania, and before you know it, they're back in the Quarter Finals looking strong. Minus Cannavaro, Nesta and Totti last night. Those players replacements hardly look inspiring. It baffles me how Ambrosini is in the team and De Rossi is left on the bench. Toni was uncharacteristically poor. Materazzi had a shocker. Grosso proved that he should've started the game ahead of Panucci when he came on. If we played Italy while they were missing a few good players, then yeah, maybe, but their strongest side is still streets ahead of most.

I'd rather we had France in the qualifiers going on yesterday. Italy will always be strong in qualifying. Its just under a year until we play them. A lot of football to be played between now and then. Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

[EAFC_rdfl]

Firstly, Luca Toni isn't a Serie A striker any more, next Del Piero's peak is right now given his 2nd half of the season form and how he not only finished top scorer but player of the season also.

And I'm not sure exactly what a "stocking" is supposed to mean, it's kind of an odd insult but if you're implying those three have no skill well then I'm dumbfounded. They're argubly the 3 best strikers in the world. What strikers would you class above them?
:D:D:D
That says it all really!!! 3 best strikers in the world! please tell us you're taking the p155 ...

[paulie_walnuts]

One thing I'll say about the merit of being Serie A top striker. Rolando Bianchi was top scorer in 06/07! Man City superstar!

[Hibernian]

Firstly, Luca Toni isn't a Serie A striker any more, next Del Piero's peak is right now given his 2nd half of the season form and how he not only finished top scorer but player of the season also.

And I'm not sure exactly what a "stocking" is supposed to mean, it's kind of an odd insult but if you're implying those three have no skill well then I'm dumbfounded. They're argubly the 3 best strikers in the world. What strikers would you class above them?

Torres anyone???

[tomred23]

Totally agree with jmurphyc post, the dutch took there chances and italians missed a good few. They were poor at the back mainly due to the Dutch pace but we have no pace in our teamso it doesn't make a difference.

[back of the net]

Firstly, Luca Toni isn't a Serie A striker any more, next Del Piero's peak is right now given his 2nd half of the season form and how he not only finished top scorer but player of the season also.

And I'm not sure exactly what a "stocking" is supposed to mean, it's kind of an odd insult but if you're implying those three have no skill well then I'm dumbfounded. They're argubly the 3 best strikers in the world. What strikers would you class above them?

3 best strikers in the world???hahahahahaha

WTF are you taking???

[irishultra]

The result means nothing in relation to Ireland. We can still qualify automatically though, but as Brady said that match isn't until April 09. They will probably be back on form come the 13th of June, let alone the 1st of April 2009.

I think someone like Del Piero will not cause Ireland problems, and neither will Toni(McShane is good against players like him)

I would be more concerned about Pirlo and Zambrotta, and someone like Aquilani.


I think its important to remember that Italy are not going to trash us, and will have to be at near their best to get a result against us. I don't fear the 90 minutes in Italy against the Italians, but I do fear the added time.

I'm not expecting a result against them or anything but has been mentioned with McGeady and Duff we could score goals against them on the break.


Just to add, if Italy do beat us(which I would expect them to) it will be a set-piece, and not some free flowing goal. The Italians are a strange great team, because they don't really score goals even though they don't play so much in the typical Italian way anymore. Like at the World Cup I thought their style of play was very good on the eye.

[billybunter]

I will judge how good the italians are sometime around March 30th of next year. They will either be superb, or very very good. This tourney is irrelevant, but they are always a quality side.

I would not be surprised if they beat the french and romanians 1-0 and go on to win this tournament. In which case it still doesnt change how I felt about them before it started. The italians and Germans are by far and away the two toughest teams to draw in European or world cup qualifying.

[dublinmick]

to be honest, whether italy have a nightmare of a tournament or whether they wn it, I have no doubt that they will have a completely different teamsheet come september.

there are some outstanding young italian talents coming through and still enough top class old pros for them to be one of the best teams in the world in the next campaign.

I do see them dropping points, even at home. however, that is nothing new with italy, even with their great teams.

I agree 100 per cent. I think this present team, once great, has had its day. The team we'll be facing is sure to be different, and better.

But one positive for us is that the new team is sure to need time to knit together - perhaps they'll be there for the taking in April and September next year...

[cavan_fan]

I think age is the key here. They had two under 30 starting yesterday (Barzagli/Pirlo). Assuming that they can't persuade a few back and there are a few retirements there could be a huge change, esp under a new manager. Now to be fair Italy have the sort of resources where they could throw together a new team under a new manager and click immediately but the odds are against it. Looking at the squad they are going to have to think hard about the future. If they continue with the current team for this world cup (which they could), they will have a huge change required post 2010. This could easily see them in a huge slump. IN effect they would have to skip a generation and go with guys currently in the Under 21's. It's a touch choice for them and it will be interesting to see who the new manager is.

[stojkovic]

Firstly, Luca Toni isn't a Serie A striker any more, next Del Piero's peak is right now given his 2nd half of the season form and how he not only finished top scorer but player of the season also.

And I'm not sure exactly what a "stocking" is supposed to mean, it's kind of an odd insult but if you're implying those three have no skill well then I'm dumbfounded. They're argubly the 3 best strikers in the world. What strikers would you class above them?

:eek::eek::eek:

I dont need to reply to this as everyone else has.

Will make the point though that we've just seen probably the two best strikers in the World - Torres & Villa.

PS As for ESPN - they must have had exclusive rights to Euro 2006.

[back of the net]

:eek::eek::eek:

I dont need to reply to this as everyone else has.

Will make the point though that we've just seen probably the two best strikers in the World - Torres & Villa.

PS As for ESPN - they must have had exclusive rights to Euro 2006.

agreed stojkovic

apart from villa and torres, i could easily name at least 7 / 8 other strikers who i would have upfront ahead of luca toni and ibrahamovic

[EAFC_rdfl]

It's not as clear cut as 3 best, what I mean is that they are in the top tier and that there is no striker that I would say is distinctively better than those 3.


Zlat
Trezeguet
Del Piero
Toni
Villa
Torres
Van Nistellroy
Drogba
Eto'o
Totti

Those are who I would regard the top tier strikers of the game at the moment, who's better than who on that list is down to conjecture, but I certainly wouldn't take an outsider ahead of any of those. Each of them have had magnificent records in the past two seasons so I would think it rather ignorant for any soccer fan to claim they "don't rate" any of these on the above list.
thats a fine bit of backtracking, you're original post used the 2nd half of season gone by as proof for including del piero yet now you are going on the past 2 seasons, if thats the case where are henry, klose, ribery, podolski, I could go on, these are all as good if not better than the 3 you speak of so highly (especially going back over 2 seasons), yet they are not even in your 'top tier' list

[FarBeag]

Torres
Villa
Berbetov
Drogba
Eto
podolski
Henry
Karim Benzema
Lesandro Lopez
Van Nistelrooy

[Dodge]

- Henry has had a woeful last 2 seasons, how could you possibly argue to the contrary? He didn't play in the 2nd half of his last Arsenal season at all and when all options are fit isn't good enough to make the Barca starting team. Why would you possibly rank him ahead of people like Trezeguet and Zlat who scored respectively 20 and 17 goals last season and the latter being one of the highest Champions League scorers?
because neither fo them would get in the barcelona starting line up either. The only comparison you can have between henry and Trezeguet is that they were both eligible for the French squad, and only Henry was picked.

Anyway, back to the original point. there's no way anyone in italy would swap their squad for ours. They are immeasurably better in most departments

[boovidge]

You do realise that Podolski is behind not only Toni, but Klose too at club level?

yeah there's no way i'd have him or eto'o down as one of the best strikers in the world. Also, Henry's very much past his best.

[Supreme feet]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ageing-italians-have-lost-desire-claims-ireland-assistant-tardelli-1404883.html

[Wolfie]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ageing-italians-have-lost-desire-claims-ireland-assistant-tardelli-1404883.html

"It was not a good display and there are many problems in the team in defence, midfield and in attack," said Tardelli.

"There are two sources for this, psychologically and physically. I don't think this team is mentally strong enough at present, there's just not the right amount of determination and strength to win games."


Jaysus Marco - Don't rile them up!

[EAFC_rdfl]

- Ribery isn't a striker
- Klose is 2nd to Toni at club level (who I mentioned)
- Podolski is 3rd in that chain behind Klose and Toni.
- Henry has had a woeful last 2 seasons, how could you possibly argue to the contrary? He didn't play in the 2nd half of his last Arsenal season at all and when all options are fit isn't good enough to make the Barca starting team. Why would you possibly rank him ahead of people like Trezeguet and Zlat who scored respectively 20 and 17 goals last season and the latter being one of the highest Champions League scorers?

Do Trezeguet and Del piero not play for the one club, if so why are you pointing out klose being 2nd to toni? I didn't actually say I rated those players higher than the 3 you mentioned, I was merely pointing out that your 'top tier' seemed to be missing quite a few players of equal quality to those you listed. I think Henry's 12 goals from 30 odd games for Barca isn't the sign of a bad player

[back of the net]

It's not as clear cut as 3 best, what I mean is that they are in the top tier and that there is no striker that I would say is distinctively better than those 3.


Zlat
Trezeguet
Del Piero
Toni
Villa
Torres
Van Nistellroy
Drogba
Eto'o
Totti

Those are who I would regard the top tier strikers of the game at the moment, who's better than who on that list is down to conjecture, but I certainly wouldn't take an outsider ahead of any of those. Each of them have had magnificent records in the past two seasons so I would think it rather ignorant for any soccer fan to claim they "don't rate" any of these on the above list.

well i rate toni as a good player but not on the levels you seem to hold him at - i would not even consider him if i had the option of playing drogba , van nistl:, torres , etoo, totti, del piero, torres etc and i could say many more

but everyone has their own views i guess