Who is Ireland’s next tier one player?

[Kevin77]

Have we got one?

By ‘tier one’ I mean genuine top class player. A player that would grace any of the big four in England and their contemporaries in Europe. In the past we have always had at least a few of these in the team and in the glory days arguably a handful (McGrath, Houghton, Whelan, Brady etc).

Now we really only have Robbie Keane. And he is playing at Spurs. He is not playing for one of the big four in England and it’s arguable that he may not be a guaranteed starter if he was (don’t go getting excited, I am not bashing him…I am a fan). In the recent past we could have argued for Duff’s inclusion in this and Given possibly…but injuries have put paid to that. My own rose tinted glasses may see me want to include Dunne in this, however despite his reported availability the clubs rumoured to be interested in him are the Aston Villa’s and Portsmouth’s of this world. If he was really tier one class then surely Arsenal or maybe Liverpool or Chelsea would be interested.

So who is our next Rolls Royce? Have we got one? Is there a once in a generation player in the pipeline? Who is he?

[paul_oshea]

the difference is "in the glory days", english football wasn't as competitive as it is now, nor was there a top 4 as such, nor were they doing well in Europe like they are now. SO technically the players mentioned above never played for top clubs of the time i.e. Italian clubs. Therefore trying to compare is silly. A totenham might be as competitive as a team then........

[Kevin77]

the difference is "in the glory days", english football wasn't as competitive as it is now, nor was there a top 4 as such, nor were they doing well in Europe like they are now. SO technically the players mentioned above never played for top clubs of the time i.e. Italian clubs. Therefore trying to compare is silly. A totenham might be as competitive as a team then........


I definitely agree with you there...I have had many discussions along the same lines. if you were to remove 95% of the 'foreigners' from the English Premier League and leave predominantly English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh players in there (as in the 70's and 80's) then of it's likely that the talent will fill the gaps above (ie, Robbie Keane might be at Man Utd, Given at Arsenal etc).

I agree with all that. Taking that into account, I am still interested to know if we are in the process of producing a Keane, Brady, Giles or Babb.

[youngirish]

Could be a while before we have another genuine World Class player coming through though I'd disagree with your mentioning of Keane as our only current player who fits this description as I don't think he's good enough to be described as top class. A fit Given who's getting regular games is still imo good enough for any of the top four. I wouldn't hold it against him that Kevin Keegan doesn't seem to rate him as I reckon Keegan is clueless regarding any defensive player's abilities and will probably not be at Newcastle this time next year.

Finnan not too long ago could easily be described as a top class full back (arguably the best in the Premiership) but he's been dropped lately and his form has dipped considerably. He hasn't become a bad player overnight though and I believe he is still good enough for one of the top four clubs if he can't cement a place at Liverpool. I was surprised to hear that a move back to Fulham could be in the pipeline. Surely he can do better than them if he's moved on.

Of the current crop of young players I'd say Garvan, James McCarthy, McGeady and Scannell are the ones most likely (if any) to break into the top four clubs though all would have to move to a mid table Premiership club first and impress there.

[Hibernian]

Good post.

going by papers and interest then McCarthy at Hamilton is next big thing in the world never mind Ireland.

Personally I'm not sure think Brady at Utd could turn into a decent pro... although he properly end up in league of Ireland.

robbie Keane is nowhere near top four team imo.

[Emmet]

I don't think Robbie Keane is good enough to make it into that band alongside the likes of Brady, McGrath, Roy Keane etc - he is a very talented player but he just lacks something extra that those guys did have. Damien Duff might be closer to that group: when he left Chelsea they (Chelsea) bent over backwards to make sure he didn't go to Liverpool because they believed he had the ability to do well there.

The argument about English teams having more foreign-based players is an interesting one. What no-one's mentioned though is that all of the big four in England have effectively got two teams which they rotate; this was not the case in the 80s and early 90s. Yes - Irish players are having to compete against a greater pool of players but there are more places up for grabs too. The other thing I would say is that scouting networks are far more thorough than they used to be: if a player exists with the talent he will get spotted. Whether that player realises his potential depends on his attitude and whether or not he can stay injury-free. At the end of the day, if a player is good enough and he works hard and listens to his coaches and does not get injured, then there will be a place for him at one of the top clubs. If none of the top clubs want him that will be because they don't see him as being able to add to their side or be a threat if he signs for one of their rivals.

And - hang on a sec - I've just seen that you're putting Phil Babb in the same bracket as Roy Keane, Liam Brady and John Giles ... :eek::eek::eek:

[seanog2001]

I reckon we have a 'tier one' player in the making in Aiden McGeady he is not there just yet but this season he has come a long way. His consistent performances for the Bhoys this year saw him quiet rightly won the players player of the year and young player of the year award in Scotland which is an excellent achievement. He still possess the tricks and skills he used to but he now has added an extra dimension to his game with his end product and his team ethic, he now does more to work back and help his defence out. If he continues on in the form he has shown this season i am sure it wont be too long before a 'big' team in england or spain come a knocking on Celtics door looking for the Bhoy McGeady.

[Morbo]

Don't see any world class player in the pipeline at the moment, wouldn't say Robbie is world class but he probably is good enough to start for Liverpool given that they only really have 1 quality stiker so does that make him tier one? Duff could probably have been considered world class back in 2002-2003. McGeady seems our best prospect right now, don't think he will quite reach the level Duff did but I think he could be a very good player for us, hopefully Keogh, Garvan and McCarthy will come good too

[Duggie]

ya prob mcgeady even tho i wouldnt be that familiar with the younger guys maybe we havent heard much of yet. what about stephen ireland if he cops on. great talent.

[Emmet]

what about stephen ireland if he cops on. great talent.You could level that remark at a few Irish players who have come through over the last ten years or so :(

[cheifo]

Owen Garvan.

[Noelys Guitar]

We have had 4 truely world class players in that last 40 or so years. Giles, Brady, McGrath and Roy Keane. That is the standard and at the moment I don't see anyone like that out there.

[Supreme feet]

I don't really get the point of the 'tier one' debate. As I pointed out on another thread, the most successful European nations outside of the traditional big seven (Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Holland and England) do not have any abundance of players playing for G14 clubs. Sweden have only two (Mellberg and Ibrahimovic) yet have qualified for the last five tournaments. Poland only have Kusczak and Fabianski, yet have qualified for the last two. Croatia, one of the most successful European nations outside the big seven, do not have one G14 player in their Euro 2008 squad (though Eduardo is injured), and their playmaker, Modric, has just signed for Spurs. Same goes for Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Switzerland and Ukraine. The G14 clubs are dominated by South Americans, Africans and players from the 'Big Seven' in Europe. Mutu and Kezman, for example, have suffered the same fate as Duff, but remain key players for their countries.

We are never going to have the same number of players at the top English clubs as we did in the seventies or eighties. But neither will England! Let's not forget that only thirteen years ago, Blackburn won the Premiership with a team of; Flowers, Kenna, Le Saux, Hendry, Pearce, Sherwood, Batty, Wilcox, Ripley, Shearer and Sutton. How many of those had successful international careers? European and English club football has changed a lot since then. International football hasn't - it's still the traditional powerhouses dominating, with us second/third ranked European nations battling each other for the same amount of qualification places. In my opinion, fifteen years ago, Given, Dunne, Andy Reid, Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle and others would have been playing for top clubs.

[Hibernian]

In my opinion, fifteen years ago, Given, Dunne, Andy Reid, Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle and others would have been playing for top clubs.

disagree on this point dont think they would have been anywhere near top side on there performances this season.

Duff on his day would alright

[RivaldoBabb]

And - hang on a sec - I've just seen that you're putting Phil Babb in the same bracket as Roy Keane, Liam Brady and John Giles ... :eek::eek::eek:

Didnt you see my overhead kick against the czechs about 10 years ago ?!

Shay Given has been world class for years for Ireland, and would get in the Arsenal side no problem. As for the rest...I think keane, Dunne and Duff are playing for clubs that reflect their ability.

The potential is there with McGeady.

[irishultra]

I don't really get the point of the 'tier one' debate. As I pointed out on another thread, the most successful European nations outside of the traditional big seven (Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Holland and England) do not have any abundance of players playing for G14 clubs. Sweden have only two (Mellberg and Ibrahimovic) yet have qualified for the last five tournaments. Poland only have Kusczak and Fabianski, yet have qualified for the last two. Croatia, one of the most successful European nations outside the big seven, do not have one G14 player in their Euro 2008 squad (though Eduardo is injured), and their playmaker, Modric, has just signed for Spurs. Same goes for Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Switzerland and Ukraine. The G14 clubs are dominated by South Americans, Africans and players from the 'Big Seven' in Europe. Mutu and Kezman, for example, have suffered the same fate as Duff, but remain key players for their countries.

We are never going to have the same number of players at the top English clubs as we did in the seventies or eighties. But neither will England! Let's not forget that only thirteen years ago, Blackburn won the Premiership with a team of; Flowers, Kenna, Le Saux, Hendry, Pearce, Sherwood, Batty, Wilcox, Ripley, Shearer and Sutton. How many of those had successful international careers? European and English club football has changed a lot since then. International football hasn't - it's still the traditional powerhouses dominating, with us second/third ranked European nations battling each other for the same amount of qualification places. In my opinion, fifteen years ago, Given, Dunne, Andy Reid, Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle and others would have been playing for top clubs.

Exactly. I sort of said something similar in the Ireland-Colombia thread.

And to the guy who responded: Was Jeff Kenna better than Richard Dunne? Hardly. I think Supreme Feet is right in his assessment that we would have had a few players now playing in the big clubs in England back then.

[Hibernian]

Exactly. I sort of said something similar in the Ireland-Colombia thread.

And to the guy who responded: Was Jeff Kenna better than Richard Dunne? Hardly. I think Supreme Feet is right in his assessment that we would have had a few players now playing in the big clubs in England back then.

Different position. Im sorry but Dunne would not have made the Blackburn team ahead of Henry and Berg

[fergalr]

Duff on his day would alright
Duff on his day did!

[Hibernian]

Duff on his day did!

I was referring to 15 years ago on present form.

[craig7042]

Have we got one?

By ‘tier one’ I mean genuine top class player. A player that would grace any of the big four in England and their contemporaries in Europe. In the past we have always had at least a few of these in the team and in the glory days arguably a handful (McGrath, Houghton, Whelan, Brady etc).

Now we really only have Robbie Keane. And he is playing at Spurs. He is not playing for one of the big four in England and it’s arguable that he may not be a guaranteed starter if he was (don’t go getting excited, I am not bashing him…I am a fan). In the recent past we could have argued for Duff’s inclusion in this and Given possibly…but injuries have put paid to that. My own rose tinted glasses may see me want to include Dunne in this, however despite his reported availability the clubs rumoured to be interested in him are the Aston Villa’s and Portsmouth’s of this world. If he was really tier one class then surely Arsenal or maybe Liverpool or Chelsea would be interested.

So who is our next Rolls Royce? Have we got one? Is there a once in a generation player in the pipeline? Who is he?


I think its up to whoever wants the roll. Someone like McGeady, Hunt, Doyle... but they have to make a leap forward in the next season or two... They have to decide. I remember the pre-season when McManaman did it for Liverpool and when Duff took a step up for Ireland. You dont always see it though . We may be relying on the team being greater than the sum of the parts!

[soccerc]

Could be a little premature, but three underage internationals who potentially could make the top are, IMHO, Conor Clifford (Chelsea), Robert Brady (Manu) Shaun Timmons (Birmingham City).

However, we've been down this road many times before and I guess it will become obvious in the next 12-18 months if any of the above trio are more than just potentials.

[drummerboy]

HUNT, no way. All heart, otherwise very limited.

[ramsfan]

Owen Garvan.


he could definitely be the one with a bit of luck needs a transfer or ipswich to buy and become areal force in championship next year

[Supreme feet]

The answer is simply no. We do not have a single World Class player. I can't see where the next one is coming from. The last one was Roy Keane. Since then Duff and Robbie Keane have had moments but over time they haven't managed to earn the World Class Tag. Sorry to be a profit of Doom but we are very much dependent on the team doing well as a unit rather than individual match winners.

It can be argued that we didn't have any world-class players during the Charlton era either, McGrath being the possible exception (Brady was coming to the end of his career). Keane, between 1998 and 2002, was a different kettle of fish, as he genuinely stood out as a big, big name in a decent team, much like Hagi with Romania, Savicevic with Yugoslavia or Stoichkov with Bulgaria. One or two star names don't guarantee success, as Wales found out even with Giggs and Hughes.

I'd rather see us well-organised, with a good team ethic, commendable all-round ability, and a few gifted mavericks (Duff, McGeady, Keane) rather than have one utterly indispensable player running the show.

[stiffler]

I would rather have a team of successful grafters than a team with one marquee player who always fail gloriously.

[Supreme feet]

I don't know where all these comedians are coming from claiming that the likes of Garvan will be world class, I'd be surprised if Garvan ever even made it to a bottom of the league premiership side let alone top tier.

Look at his position, and age, Ciaran. He's a 20-year-old defensive midfielder. They don't tend to mature until later on in their careers. If Garvan makes the step up now (and Middlesbrough, Everton and Wigan have been linked), he's got a great chance of developing further. It's subtle things in Garvan's play (positioning, distribution, technique and leadership) that mark him out as a player with potential. Granted, it's only potential at this stage, but why write him off at 20?

At 20, Makelele was playing for Nantes, not doing much. As was Deschamps at that age. Ballack was at Chemnitzer. Zidane was an inconsistent midfielder at Cannes. Hagi was at Spurtul Studenesc. Stoichkov was at CSKA Sofia, who aren't much better than Ipswich. Need I go on?

I'm not comparing Garvan to any of these great footballers (yet :) ) but I'm pointing out the folly of judging footballers harshly, in the embryonic stages of their careers. It also shows the constant unpredictability of a world-class player emerging. Garvan is about to make his international debut, and seems sure to be making a move to a decent Premier League club very soon. It's a step in the right direction. Okay, he may not turn out to be the next Roy Keane, but never write off a 20-year old footballer, just because he's not a fast developer like Fabregas or Messi.

[woodie]

Correct. No one man makes a team anyway. Except maybe Diego 86.

Keane carried the Irish team for years... (let the arguments start again...)

[woodie]

Sorry, I couldn't help starting the row all over again/:)

[tricky_colour]

We did ok in Japan Korea without him!! ;)

But we would not have got there without him.

[Supreme feet]

Keane carried the Irish team for years... (let the arguments start again...)

From our results between 1998 and 2001 -

With Keane; played 15, won 9, drew 5, lost 1.
Without Keane; played 15, won 5, drew 4, lost 6.

I don't want to bring up S****n, as we all know what happened there, and the rights and wrongs there will never be resolved. But Keane's positive influence on the team was immense when he was in his prime, something to which many senior players openly admitted at the time. His retirement has left a void in the centre of midfield which we have never properly filled.

[Emmet]

Keane was an absolute colosass in the middle of the park and I don't think he's been properly replaced at United never mind Ireland!

[Irish_Praha]

Keane was an absolute colosass in the middle of the park and I don't think he's been properly replaced at United never mind Ireland!

Yeah their fourtunes have taken a total nose-dive in the first full two seasons since he left. :p

Of course they miss what he had to add to the table but I think they have adjusted quite well.

[Kevin77]

And - hang on a sec - I've just seen that you're putting Phil Babb in the same bracket as Roy Keane, Liam Brady and John Giles ... :eek::eek:

Great spot. :)

[SilkCut]

Players like Keane, Brady, Giles and McGrath dont grow on trees. Even the bigger Nations like England, Spain and Italy struggle to replace stars regularly. When was the last time England had a decent left sided midfielder? Spain, lots of stars - never win a thing!! Marco Matterazzi played a world cup final for Italy FFS Dunne is better than him IMO. Next Irish star must be McGeady I do reckon Garvan will be quality and part of me feels very sorry for Steven Reid who could have been real quality except for a terrible run of injuries. I think I remember him being touted as a replacement for Keane at Utd. some years ago.

[Kevin77]

Look at his position, and age, Ciaran. He's a 20-year-old defensive midfielder. They don't tend to mature until later on in their careers. If Garvan makes the step up now (and Middlesbrough, Everton and Wigan have been linked), he's got a great chance of developing further. It's subtle things in Garvan's play (positioning, distribution, technique and leadership) that mark him out as a player with potential. Granted, it's only potential at this stage, but why write him off at 20?

At 20, Makelele was playing for Nantes, not doing much. As was Deschamps at that age. Ballack was at Chemnitzer. Zidane was an inconsistent midfielder at Cannes. Hagi was at Spurtul Studenesc. Stoichkov was at CSKA Sofia, who aren't much better than Ipswich. Need I go on?

I'm not comparing Garvan to any of these great footballers (yet :) ) but I'm pointing out the folly of judging footballers harshly, in the embryonic stages of their careers. It also shows the constant unpredictability of a world-class player emerging. Garvan is about to make his international debut, and seems sure to be making a move to a decent Premier League club very soon. It's a step in the right direction. Okay, he may not turn out to be the next Roy Keane, but never write off a 20-year old footballer, just because he's not a fast developer like Fabregas or Messi.


Superb post. I wish everyone that posted on forums was as well resourced and posted as eloquently as you.

Think of all the great/good players that have been relatively anonymous in their formative years. From memory Terry and Beckham did not fully break into the Chelsea and Utd sides until at least 20.

And Darren Fletcher is just biding his time along with John O'Shea too. ;)

[Kevin77]

Players like Keane, Brady, Giles and McGrath dont grow on trees. Even the bigger Nations like England, Spain and Italy struggle to replace stars regularly. When was the last time England had a decent left sided midfielder? Spain, lots of stars - never win a thing!! Marco Matterazzi played a world cup final for Italy FFS Dunne is better than him IMO. Next Irish star must be McGeady I do reckon Garvan will be quality and part of me feels very sorry for Steven Reid who could have been real quality except for a terrible run of injuries. I think I remember him being touted as a replacement for Keane at Utd. some years ago.

Yeah, but when you are talking about England you are talking about what they HAVEN'T got. They have a handful of tier one players. At the moment we have merely potential.

[gilberto_eire]

the difference is "in the glory days", english football wasn't as competitive as it is now, nor was there a top 4 as such, nor were they doing well in Europe like they are now. SO technically the players mentioned above never played for top clubs of the time i.e. Italian clubs. Therefore trying to compare is silly. A totenham might be as competitive as a team then........

I don't agree with that, while it's more competitive now that also comes down to the increased professionalim in the game and development of players!.
Also clubs now go further afield in the pursuit of playersl, thus leaving 1000's of potentially gifted english footballers out in the cold as while there are'nt many more scouts employed by clubs there spending less time in the home country.

The next comment says that going by todays standards a few years ago Robbie Keae would have been at Arsenal,United etc.... not a hope the top teams were still full of Internationals

If your theory is right then we should still have as good as a team now then we had back in 1990 and 1994, this is'nt true, look at a team picture from those days and recall there clubs and the majority were playing with the clubs near the top of the table in England. Look at it now when we're struggling in our groups and see where the players are playing now.

Regardless of when they came through the players from the by-gone days would still make it into the top teams in England if not even further afield

[Qwerty]

The top 4 now are pretty much the same every year and are mostly foreign players who are hosehold names around the globe. It's almost funny looking back at the Blackburn & Leeds teams now, Leed would probably struggle to make it into the top half of the table now with that title winning team.

I really don't think it matters how many players we have in the top 4. It's how many we have playing regularly in the Premiership that counts.

[tricky_colour]

Dean Keily.:ball:

[Slaney]

McGeady and Garvan imo.

[SilkCut]

Yeah, but when you are talking about England you are talking about what they HAVEN'T got. They have a handful of tier one players. At the moment we have merely potential.

Fair point Kevin. Even with those "Tier one" players they didnt qualify for EC either. What I am saying is we don't neccessarily need star players we need a committed team.

[irishultra]

I prefer a team like Croatia with no star players, but with nice technique and good passing football. You could make a case for Modric, but then we could make a case for McGeady.

I actually do think in the next 5 years Ireland will get at least one truly world class player though.

[bellavistaman]

Like it or not- Not in most your cases, Stephen Ireland is without doubt the hottest prospect we have.

[SilkCut]

Like it or not- Not in most your cases, Stephen Ireland is without doubt the hottest prospect we have.

We don't have him anymore though, time to move on. Mcgeady is the future!!!

[Kevin77]

Fair point Kevin. Even with those "Tier one" players they didnt qualify for EC either. What I am saying is we don't neccessarily need star players we need a committed team.


Agreed. I don't think the two need be mutually exclusive though?

You could hardly argue that having Keane made us a more divided...oh oh!!! Not that argument again!

[Morbo]

Like it or not- Not in most your cases, Stephen Ireland is without doubt the hottest prospect we have.
Disagree with that and not just because I don't like the guy but I think McGeady for one has more potential.
Ireland is good but he is limited, he is no great athlete and never will be, he is too easily pushed off the ball and most importantly he just doesn't have the right mental attributes to make it to the top, lacks motivation and doesn't even seem to enjoy playing football, I think like JOSH he will be another one of our players who never fulfilled their potential

[tetsujin1979]

Could be a little premature, but three underage internationals who potentially could make the top are, IMHO, Conor Clifford (Chelsea), Robert Brady (Manu) Shaun Timmons (Birmingham City).

However, we've been down this road many times before and I guess it will become obvious in the next 12-18 months if any of the above trio are more than just potentials.
I liked the look of Brady in the recent U-17 championships

[SilkCut]

Agreed. I don't think the two need be mutually exclusive though?

You could hardly argue that having Keane made us a more divided...oh oh!!! Not that argument again!

No arguement here, however Keane, while undoubtedly a magnificent player, was not your typical tier one candidate such as Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho etc.. he was one of the first of a new breed of midfielder and only Steven Gerrard has come close to him. A box to box player who would sooner die than lose a game and who gave his all for the benefit of his team (aside obviously from the obvious incident which will blight our memories of him forever.). He made the most of the talent God gave him, much the same as Kevin Moran did and made himself a tier one player. This is why those people suggesting Stephen Ireland as our next great hope are wrong. He has bucket loads of talent but doesnt seem to have the desire to exploit it fully therefore is destined to be no more than average. Which IMO is a massive massive shame.

[Seagull-4-life]

Paul McShane...No seriously Ireland is our next big hope

[Bungle]

truely excellent post and really enjoyable reading this thread.

I guess the first question I would say is what constitutes world class. I notice one of the posters (think it was noely's guitar) say we've only had 4 world class players in the last 40 years. If Noely's definition of world class is a guy who could get into a world x1 or a world 22, then I would say that's fair enough. However, I would consider world class to be a guy who could grace any team club or international. By this definition, I would throw Whelan, Irwin, Lawrenson and possibly Heighway into the mix. From the modern era, Given is imo world class and duff from 2001-2004 was world class. Robbie is the level just below world class.

It's so difficult to see who will be our next world class player. I do believe we will produce one or two in the next 5-10 years, but it depends on so much. Garvan has the look of an excellent player but his next move is crucial. I would prefer him to stay with Ipswich for another year and then go to a club like Villa rather than go to a club like middlesboro where he could go backwards and disappear from sight. mccarthy is in the same category, as he is clearly a very special player. even though I am a liverpool fan, i think going there would be a bad move for him. I think he would be better served going to a club like fulham, pompey or villa where he would flourish and have a chance of first team football in the next year or so at a club where good football is played. scannell looks exceptional as well.

from the younger lads, clifford and brady look special, as does dolan of blackburn. hourihane seems a real class act too http://www.uefa.com/competitions/under17/news/kind=1/newsid=697438.html but i think at that age it's too young to predict. i know joxer kelly at liverpool was considered the best player of his age group but then got home sick so I don't think you can predict anything before they're coming upto 18.