Cork & Pat's unseeded

[JC_GUFC]

After England were given one of the Fair play league spots in the UEFA Cup it now means that Cork & St Pat's will both be unseeded in this season's UEFA Cup draw.

There is also a draw for 2 extra UEFA Cup places through the fair play and 4 of the 7 teams in the draw are from our region so there's a good chance that will be at least 1 fair play place.

It looks like Fulham have got the English Fair Play Spot so will be seeded.

The other seeded teams will be

Viking Stavanger (Norway)
Brondby (Denmark - Cup winners)
2 of Midtylland, Odense & FC Copenhagen (2nd & 3rd Denmark)
Djugardens (Sweden)
Kalmar (Sweden)
Haka (Finland)
Honka (Finland)
Hafnarfjurdor (Iceland)
Liepajas Metalurgs (Latvia)
Olimps Riga (Latvia)
and possibly 2 Lithuania sides Vetra Vilnius and Suduva Marijampole depending on the fair play draw.

In the CL Drogs are seeded and will be drawn against one of

BATE Borisov (Belarus)
Levadia Tallin (Estonia)
Probably Olimpik Baku (Azerbaijan - not yet champions)
Probably Dinamo Tirana (Albania - not yet champions)
Pyunik Yerevan (Armenia)
FK Aktobe (Kazakhstan)
Linfield (N Ireland)
Llanelli (Wales)
NSI Runavik (Faroe Islands)
Dudelange (Luxembourg)
Valletta (Malta)
Santa Coloma (Andorra)
Probably FK Buducnost (Montenegro - not yet champions)
San Marino Champions (Having a 6-team playoff so hard to guess who'll win!)

[inchicore_saint]

Hopefully we will draw a team from one of the weaker countries.

[SPXcyan]

hopefully yez will avoid the sweeeeeeeeds or higher! scary :o

[Sheridan]

Hopefully we will draw a team from one of the weaker countries.
Have you considered going into punditry at all?

[Réiteoir]

Hopefully we will draw a team from one of the weaker countries.

Nah - you can't draw Cork... ;):ball:

[mrtndvn]

so whats the chances of derry getting a fair play uefa cup place?

[Danny]

none

from uefa

england automatic and 3 out of
Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Spain and France.

[CJTheGull]

Hi lads - anyone know the dates for those UEFA Cup qualifiers - the UEFA Cup website is all about Wednesday's Final and nothing about the 2008/09 competition - any clues on dates go raibh míle maith agat.

[Danny]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/calendar2008.html

July 17, 2008 1st qualifying round UEFA Cup, 1st leg
July 31, 2008 1st qualifying round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg

[sligoman]

When's the draw?

[CJTheGull]

Cheers Danny - that has all the info I need many thanks.

[DmanDmythDledge]

When's the draw?
Check the link in the post above yours.

[JC_GUFC]

Check the link in the post above yours.


none

from uefa

england automatic and 3 out of
Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Spain and France.

It's actually only 2 of those 7 countries that will be drawn. The draw will be made at 2.30 today.

The draw for the 1st qualifying round will be on the 27th of June.

[Danny]

Germany and Denmark got the extra places

[bennocelt]

Just curious...dud Dunne getting sent off affect man city getting one of these spots?

[HarpoJoyce]

No the Fair Play measurement is not based on club performances. But the spread of representative sides of the country. Providing there is over 20 games played in a season then the different criteria are measured. The individual club benefits from the performances of the National teams.

[micls]

Looks a very tough draw to be unseeded in this year. One of the toughest in a while I think.

Berts predictions of seeding and regions
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seeduc2008.html

[pineapple stu]

Finland, Iceland and Latvia are very beatable, as we've shown before.

Fulham or Man City would be interesting.

Drogheda should come through; only one or two really tricky draws there.

[micls]

Fulham or Man City would be interesting.
.

No thanks, lowest seeding please

[pineapple stu]

Chicken! :p

[micls]

Chicken! :p

Sensible. We'l take them in the group stage :)

[holidaysong]

I'd definitely want the team from Iceland if it was me.

[micls]

I'd definitely want the team from Iceland if it was me.

Iceland left me broke last summer. Somewhere slightly cheaper please.

Football wise then yeah its a good draw but not good for travel

[holidaysong]

Iceland left me broke last summer. Somewhere slightly cheaper please.

Football wise then yeah its a good draw but not good for travel

It's got to be Latvia then.

Drogheda should get past the first round. I can't see them doing much after that though as the 2nd QR looks impossible!

This is the last year of this format, with the 2009/10 season separating qualification for the champions and runner up teams from the stronger countries. Is that right?

[HarpoJoyce]

It's got to be Latvia then.

Drogheda should get past the first round. I can't see them doing much after that though as the 2nd QR looks impossible!

This is the last year of this format, with the 2009/10 season separating qualification for the champions and runner up teams from the stronger countries. Is that right?

There doesn't appear to be a change announced in the CL format.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/format/index.html
Although next year UEFA are not utilising the Intertoto cup but expanded the qualifying rounds of the UEFA Cup. Wheather the Intertoto continues as a private betting competition as it was before remains to be seen.

I havn't seen these linked, it's UEFA's table on when clubs are introduced to it's two main competitions.
UEFA Cup
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=677847.html

The more straight forward Champion's League
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/news/kind=1/newsid=677787.html
It shows the ranking for cut-off points and the important difference betweenf 9 and 10, 15 and 16 in the CL and 8 and 9, 13 and 14 in the UEFA.
It's also a reminder that the five year co-efficient measurement is a fixed league,and calculated on June 30th around 13:14 every year. July 1 is the traditional start of the new year for the winter season. And not a continous fluid measurement as some posters on here would have you believe.

Also, the ramp of improvement, for most countries is very,very shallow. Some countries like SMR keep getting knocked back to the bottom of the class.

[holidaysong]

Access list
However, the UEFA Champions League access list between 2009 and 2012 will change accordingly: 22 teams go through directly to the group stage instead of 16. The six additional clubs will be the third-placed sides from the associations ranked between 1 and 3 in the ranking list, and the champions of countries ranked from 10 to 12.

Qualifying routes
Ten teams will qualify through a double qualifying route – one is reserved for the champions of the associations ranked from 13 to 53, with the exception of Liechtenstein. Five clubs will qualify via this route. The other path is reserved for the non-champions of associations rated between 1 and 15.


UEFA.com (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=630602.html?cid=rssfeed&att=index)

[HarpoJoyce]

UEFA.com (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=630602.html?cid=rssfeed&att=index)

Thanks for that holidaysong, I wasn't aware of it.

That's quite a significant change. UEFA give an extra UEFA place by removing the Intertoto but restrict access to top 12 plum draws for any club lucky enough to get through a few rounds. Looking at the leagues it will benefit, e.g Cech. Rep, Turkey, Greece. Any medium-ranked league who can qualify regularly through this route will move further away from the also rans. However there will be clubs in leagues just above them who may be beaten regularly by stronger clubs and those Leagues will replace the current medium-ranked. Thus creating another mini-whirlpool on the co-efficient ladder, easy points move up, games and points get harder, move down.

[pete]

Drogheda should get past the first round. I can't see them doing much after that though as the 2nd QR looks impossible!

Difficult and unlikely to progress but not impossible.

[holidaysong]

Thanks for that holidaysong, I wasn't aware of it.



Keeping the non-champions of associations rated between 1 and 15 out of our qualifying section should make it easier for Irish clubs to break into the CL Group stage though. They would only have to beat the champions of countries like Austria, Denmark or Serbia now rather than the runners up of countries like the Netherlands, Scotland or Spain. How different Shelbourne's campaign may have been if they had drawn one of these teams rather than the Deportivos of this world...

[HarpoJoyce]

Keeping the non-champions of associations rated between 1 and 15 out of our qualifying section should make it easier for Irish clubs to break into the CL Group stage though. They would only have to beat the champions of countries like Austria, Denmark or Serbia now rather than the runners up of countries like the Netherlands, Scotland or Spain. How different Shelbourne's campaign may have been if they had drawn one of these teams rather than the Deportivos of this world...

You're a romantic I'll give you that.

It's right you have identified the 'break-through tie', it's just at the moment Czech Rep., Turkey and Greece are holding 13-15 spot. Now things change if they move up because of the easier ties than their immediate replacements above them are Belgium, Ukraine, Scotland. At this moment. The brick-wall of a top-eight league club where by mutual consent it's alright for the LoI side to lose to, is gone. But since the introduction of the group stages of the UEFA Cup, the absolute necessity of a LoI club to be successful in the CL is reduced. The sheer mass of games in the UEFA Cup allow for improvement above neighbouring leagues.


For the last number of years for me, LoI clubs are in a chase to the first round of the UEFA Cup, no matter what route that can be acheived by. It is a cup competition after all.

Its possibly to plod along in a competition and present yourself as successful. The Shelbourne example you presented where they won one match but still were able to present themselves as the most successful LoI team. They brought huge attention to the competition and domestic players. There are different measurements.

Dundalk was part of some early Champions League media exposure when the great LMFM broadcast their Kispest Honved of Budapest away match live and acheived a 1-1 draw. Back at Oriel their was LMFM, RTE Radio, Capital Radio and Century Radio. Century's broadcast went kaput during the game. However, were able to generate interest in the LoI through their efforts. It was also a last 32 game aswell.

[JC_GUFC]

It's also a reminder that the five year co-efficient measurement is a fixed league,and calculated on June 30th around 13:14 every year. July 1 is the traditional start of the new year for the winter season. And not a continous fluid measurement as some posters on here would have you believe.




The coefficients apply to teams entering the UEFA Competitions at the start of each UEFA season. During this period the rankings move up and down depending on results of teams from each country but the new ranking isn't used until the start of the next season's UEFA Competitions.

[Danny]

Man City confirmed as England Uefa Reps....

[JC_GUFC]

Man City (England)
Viking Stavanger (Norway)
Brondby (Denmark)
Midtylland (Denmark)
FC Copenhagen (Denmark)
FC Nordsjaelland (Denmark)
Djugardens (Sweden)
Kalmar (Sweden)
Haka (Finland)
Honka (Finland)
Hafnarfjurdor (Iceland)
Liepajas Metalurgs (Latvia)
Olimps Riga (Latvia)
and either Vetra Vilnius or Suduva Marijampole of Lithuania

In the CL Drogs are seeded and will be drawn against one of

BATE Borisov (Belarus)
Levadia Tallin (Estonia)
Probably Olimpik Baku (Azerbaijan - not yet champions)
Dinamo Tirana (Albania)
Pyunik Yerevan (Armenia)
FK Aktobe (Kazakhstan)
Linfield (N Ireland)
Llanelli (Wales)
NSI Runavik (Faroe Islands)
Dudelange (Luxembourg)
Valletta (Malta)
Santa Coloma (Andorra)
Probably FK Buducnost Podgorica (Montenegro - not yet champions)
San Marino Champions (Having a 6-team playoff so hard to guess who'll win!)


Man City confirmed as England Uefa Reps....

Updated.

Man City and Nordsjaelland (8th in Denmark) get through via the fair play.
I think, though not 100% sure that the seeded Lithuania team in the UEFA Cup will be Vetra Vilnius as they are the cup winners and that ranks as a higher placing than league runners-up.

If that was confusing I just tried to figure out the playoff for the San Marino championship... :confused:
It seems a bit like the GAA football championship - in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the GAA got their format from the other codes in San Marino.

[HarpoJoyce]

The coefficients apply to teams entering the UEFA Competitions at the start of each UEFA season. During this period the rankings move up and down depending on results of teams from each country but the new ranking isn't used until the start of the next season's UEFA Competitions.


Good. It is agreed then. No running totals of the UEFA co-efficient to be recorded, as the measurment has already being determined for this year and the next.

The co-efficient for this year, Irl performance in 02/03 (0.166 discarded and replaced last season) and 03/04 (0.333 to be discarded and replaced with this seasons scores) are relatively poor in comparison with more recent years. Simply by doing better than our own scores of five years before, the LoI gain. It gained five places last season alone.
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=584172.html
The table identifies any potential targets as they discard big numbers and must match them to stand still. Bosnia and Herc. (BiH) and Slovenia (Slv) are such targets.



Updated.

Man City and Nordsjaelland (8th in Denmark) get through via the fair play.....


This is not the ferst time Man. City have benefitted from their league placing and the efforts of others. They qualified via the Fair Play table before.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=72673.html



I think, though not 100% sure that the seeded Lithuania team in the UEFA Cup will be Vetra Vilnius as they are the cup winners and that ranks as a higher placing than league runners-up.
I believe you are correct. Because the two LTU sides have the same score they look at domestic position. The post #25 middle UEFA document show a preference for CW over RU and N3.
Teams are given individual co-efficient scores. If they are below the National average than the Nat. average is awarded, this is why the majority of clubs have equal scores. Sometimes a club may be carrying the country (your mate Bert Kassels has Hafnarfjardar of Iceland with a high score, enough to earn a seeding).

The simple thing is for the LoI to continue to improve the Co-efficient so that we by-pass clubs at a time. The next bunch of North Europe countries FIN, LTU and LAT are within reach but only FIN are going backwards.

[JC_GUFC]

I think it's kind of interesting, for an anorak like me, and relevant for the European entrants to see how our rankings are going up and down as the season progresses.
By November we'll know our European qualifiers so it's interesting to see how the seeding will work.

As you say next season we're dropping the 0.333 points we got in 03/04 but Moldova (34th) and Bosnia (32nd) are dropping 1.5 and 1.666 respectively so in effect we will move above those 2 countries in the provisional coefficient list for the 09/10 UEFA competitions.

03/04 is the last relatively poor season we've had over the last 5 years with all other years picking up at least 1 point. If you look at Hungary, ranked 26th, they will lose 4.833 and 4.166 points in the next 2 years and are ranked below us in the 10/11 provisional rankings, we're a provisional 27th!

Another thing to note is that England are now top of the rankings list after this season's performances.

This will be breaking news on Sky Sports News next week sometime when UEFA issue the list but it probably is the best measure of the relative strength of European leagues.

[pete]

It seems Lithuania & Hungary (in serious decline & sliding down the rankings) are our targets for next season. Just need to beat them by a little bit & could be up to 31st as long as Bosnia don't overtake us.

[fitzknows]

Good. It is agreed then. No running totals of the UEFA co-efficient to be recorded, as the measurment has already being determined for this year and the next.

The co-efficient for this year, Irl performance in 02/03 (0.166 discarded and replaced last season) and 03/04 (0.333 to be discarded and replaced with this seasons scores) are relatively poor in comparison with more recent years. Simply by doing better than our own scores of five years before, the LoI gain. It gained five places last season alone.
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=584172.html
The table identifies any potential targets as they discard big numbers and must match them to stand still. Bosnia and Herc. (BiH) and Slovenia (Slv) are such targets.


This is not the ferst time Man. City have benefitted from their league placing and the efforts of others. They qualified via the Fair Play table before.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=72673.html


I believe you are correct. Because the two LTU sides have the same score they look at domestic position. The post #25 middle UEFA document show a preference for CW over RU and N3.
Teams are given individual co-efficient scores. If they are below the National average than the Nat. average is awarded, this is why the majority of clubs have equal scores. Sometimes a club may be carrying the country (your mate Bert Kassels has Hafnarfjardar of Iceland with a high score, enough to earn a seeding).

The simple thing is for the LoI to continue to improve the Co-efficient so that we by-pass clubs at a time. The next bunch of North Europe countries FIN, LTU and LAT are within reach but only FIN are going backwards.


Are you a human?

[HarpoJoyce]

Are you a human?

It's not a requirement of the Forum.....is it? Nobody said... I didn't see any signs. Why do you ask? It's only a league table with specific measurements.

Regarding the UEFA league table, the table is a very specific, accurate accumulation of points over five years. Each year is added and the most ancient year discarded. It's not four years + a running total of results through the season. The reason is that there is numerous ways of scoring points and partial points inc. match points, bonus points for various stages of both competitons. I was aware of a rule where if a match went to penalties then the points for that match was shared between the sides, not awarded based on the final scoreline. The running total through the year is the domestic equilvalent of constantly updating a league table for every minute of football during each football night through a season.

Be patient, wait for the result, in this case each result and points total comes in June.

To repeat about the target Leagues any advance up the table is welcome. 'Cos North Europe are our rivals at present over-taking any of those countries will give a chance for seeded entries in the Q1 round. At the moment LoI are a bit Yo-Yo with regard to that.

[bigmac]

Are you saying that you don't want anyone to discuss how results in matches will impact on the coefficient in terms of points gained until the European season is completely finished??

[HarpoJoyce]

Are you saying that you don't want anyone to discuss how results in matches will impact on the coefficient in terms of points gained until the European season is completely finished??


People will do what they like and I hate dominating threads.

Don't stop discussing, especially individual matches and performance. But don't count 'til at least the results effecting LoI are in. That may mean waiting on a paticular stubborn Montenegrian club to be knocked out. BUt it is hard to stop itchy pencils.

Also JC_GUFC recognised when the points were acculmulated, at the end of the season. So I just pinned him on it. He recognises himself, he is one of the first to start adding on to the 4 year total. For me it's a five year total with one subtration and addition every year. When that's recognised the 'importance' of the running total is appreciated.

Bigmac, how did you work out what I way saying in the previous posts?

[bigmac]

Bigmac, how did you work out what I way saying in the previous posts?

:confused: now I'm confused - was there some doubt over the way the coefficients worked?
I agree with you that it needs to be kept in the context of what other countries around us are doing - as you say, waiting for a stubborn club to be knocked out,

Separate point - you're right on the penalties count - that classes as a draw for co-efficient purposes.

[JC_GUFC]

Cork & Pat's unseeded and will be drawn against one of the below.

Man City (England)
Viking Stavanger (Norway)
Brondby (Denmark)
FC Copenhagen (Denmark)
FC Midtyjlland (Denmark)
FC Nordsjaelland (Denmark)
Djugardens (Sweden)
Kalmar (Sweden)
Haka (Finland)
Honka (Finland)
Hafnarfjurdor (Iceland)
Liepajas Metalurgs (Latvia)
Olimps Riga (Latvia)
Suduva Marijampole (Lithuania)

In the CL Drogs are seeded and will be drawn against one of

BATE Borisov (Belarus)
Levadia Tallin (Estonia)
Inter Baku (Azerbaijan)
Dinamo Tirana (Albania)
Pyunik Yerevan (Armenia)
FK Aktobe (Kazakhstan)
Linfield (N Ireland)
Llanelli (Wales)
NSI Runavik (Faroe Islands)
Dudelange (Luxembourg)
Valletta (Malta)
Santa Coloma (Andorra)
FK Buducnost Podgorica (Montenegro)
Murata (San Marino)

All leagues are now complete so unless UEFA change things these will be the possible opponents.

The draws are being made on July 1st, there will also be a draw for the 2nd qualifying round of the CL so the seeded teams Drogs could get drawn against would be

Rangers (Scotland)
Panathinaikos (Greece)
FC Basel (Switzerland)
Fenerbahce (Turkey)
Anderlecht (Belgium)
Sparta Prague (Czech Rep)
Dinamo Kiev (Ukraine)
Partizan Belgrade (Serbia)
Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia)/Unseeded 1st round team
Wisla Krakow (Poland)
Artmedia Bratislava (Slovakia)/Unseeded 1st round team
AAB Aalborg (Denmark)
SK Brann (Norway)
Rapid Vienna (Austria)

[WindmillWarrior]

Tasty!!
Though would we have any chance against any of those? Doubt it

[holidaysong]

...so the seeded teams Drogs could get drawn against would be

Rangers (Scotland)

...

Oh how I long for the chance to be a Rangers fan for a day! :D

[JC_GUFC]

Tasty!!
Though would we have any chance against any of those? Doubt it

If Wisla Krakow, Artmedia or Dinamo Zagreb played very poorly and Drogs played very well you may have a chance against those, I think the rest would be too tough but should draw a decent crowd.

That's obviously if you get that far. Derry could've been playing Shaktar Donetsk last year.

Pity Drogs have to use Dalymount again this year...

[bigmac]

If Wisla Krakow, Artmedia or Dinamo Zagreb played very poorly and Drogs played very well you may have a chance against those, I think the rest would be too tough but should draw a decent crowd.


Probably true - maybe against anderlecht as well - seeing as they'd be out of season - as all the northern countries are on summer football, it means the lower of those seeds will be in full flight at the moment and more difficult. If you could get an away result against Brann with a home leg to follow, there'd be a good chance there too.

[Celdrog]

Pity Drogs have to use Dalymount again this year...Unless we draw Rangers in the second round ..... God knows who would want to host them.