Irish League 2008-09 format.

[holidaysong]

Has anyone got a link or better yet an explanation of what is happening with the IL next year. The league is being reduced from 16 to 12, is that correct? With teams being invited to participate? Will promotion and relegation begin again after this?

[Graemerz]

AFAIK there will be no relegation for atleast 3 years. Big story at the moment is that Portadown's application missed the deadline so one of the better clubs in the league may not be allowed in it. The whole idea of reducing the league 12 is to make it stronger and more professional...... so we'll be seeing Institute and Donegal Celtic in it.

[DmanDmythDledge]

No relegation?:eek: Surely that's against UEFA guidelines?

[holidaysong]

No relegation?:eek: Surely that's against UEFA guidelines?

I think the first and second divisions in the North are classed as 'intermediate leagues' therefore relegation isn't necessary to keep UEFA happy - similar to there being no relegation between our League of Ireland and the LSL or MSL for example (until this recent A Championship at least).

[DmanDmythDledge]

Don't see how the league will become stronger and more professional then. The lesser of the 12 teams will become stronger as they will get the best players from the teams cut off but when relegation is re-introduced teams will start yo-yoing between the divisions as the teams that go up will not be strong enough to stay there and whoever gets relegated will go straight back up again.

[EalingGreen]

Don't see how the league will become stronger and more professional then. The lesser of the 12 teams will become stronger as they will get the best players from the teams cut off but when relegation is re-introduced teams will start yo-yoing between the divisions as the teams that go up will not be strong enough to stay there and whoever gets relegated will go straight back up again.

I am instinctively opposed to there being no P&R for a variety of reasons. However, I imagine that the 3 year grace period is both to "reward" those clubs which made the cut by investing in facilities etc, and encourage them to think more long term.

Otherwise, with the regular threat of relegation (or the need to achieve promotion), clubs become desperate and are tempted to spend money they don't have on players they can't afford, all on a purely short-term basis.

[I still don't like it, mind, since there ought to be other ways to instill and enforce financial discipline, whilst retaining P&R]

[Morrissey]

AFAIAA, there will be P&R. Parker can confirm. Anyway, it could lead to a situation where it's effectively without P&R, given the prerequisite of a DL for entry into the IFAP.

As for the Portadown situation, it's a non-issue IMO. Taking UEFA requirements out of the equation, this new league is, IMO, a direct consequence of the IFA's inadequacy and gerrymandering of the rules to allow glorified pub teams like DC, Armagh and Limavady admission. More often than not because they haven't the backbone to say no , and for the former, purely the threat of court action.

Now, by letting Portadown in, we would be back at square one with yet more manipulation of the rules to suit themselves. As much as the IL needs Portadown, which it does, it's a lesson that all clubs need to learn. The IFA are supposedly moving into a new era with accountability and professionalism. Let's see some evidence.

As much as I'd love to see the disingenuous Celtic Supporters Club back thriving in junior football, it cannot be to the detriment of the new league. For that reason, Portadown out, them -*eeks - in.

[paudie]

.

As for the Portadown situation, it's a non-issue IMO. Taking UEFA requirements out of the equation, this new league is, IMO, a direct consequence of the IFA's inadequacy and gerrymandering of the rules to allow glorified pub teams like DC, Armagh and Limavady admission. More often than not because they haven't the backbone to say no , and for the former, purely the threat of court action.
Now, by letting Portadown in, we would be back at square one with yet more manipulation of the rules to suit themselves. As much as the IL needs Portadown, which it does, it's a lesson that all clubs need to learn. The IFA are supposedly moving into a new era with accountability and professionalism. Let's see some evidence.

As much as I'd love to see the disingenuous Celtic Supporters Club back thriving in junior football, it cannot be to the detriment of the new league. For that reason, Portadown out, them -*eeks - in.

Surely the threat of court action would only be effective if DC had a decent chance of winning any court action? Presumably that would only be the case if they were excluded in a way not in accordance with the rules of the Invitational league.

And any club who thought they were excluded incorrectly to "let" DC in would win any legal action against the IFA, if they were excluded in a way not in accordance the rules.

BTW has the line up for the 12 team league been finalised, bearing in mind Portadown's ongoing difficulties?

[Morrissey]

DC, in their short existence, have mastered the art of smokescreens and playing victim.

They have their court cases already lined up in the event that they miss out when the results are announced on 9th May. I can think, off the top of my head, of three permutations leading to court from the results. Two of those featuring DC.

Appealing the results can only be on procedural matters AFAIK, so they'll have no case with the make-up of the points, but rather the system used to arrive at them. Coleraine, Bangor, Portadown and DC will have an interesting few weeks ahead, I think.

I include us because of the opinion, misguided at that, that we transferred our membership of the IFA back in 2005. Bangor's inclusion on my list will be dependant upon the outcome of the Portadown fiasco.

[AnnaghRed]

The IFA are supposedly moving into a new era with accountability and professionalism. Let's see some evidence.

:eek: I wouldn't hold your breath.

Shouldn't your own club have been booted out a few years back over irregularities involving something like a million quid?

Portadown should stay, but with the proviso that Bobby Jameson is booted off the board.

And imo Donegal Celtic have earned their place too via their league position, quite why Bangor are being considered for the league is beyond me.

[DmanDmythDledge]

BTW has the line up for the 12 team league been finalised, bearing in mind Portadown's ongoing difficulties?
It was posted on here a while back but I can't find it at the moment.

[Morrissey]

I wouldn't hold your breath.
Perhaps.



Shouldn't your own club have been booted out a few years back over irregularities involving something like a million quid?
It has been debated to death across multiple IL discussion forums. I'm not one for revisionism, but suffice to say, I suggest you look at the Coleraine case a little more carefully, and examine the similarities, or lack of, with the Portadown case.



Portadown should stay, but with the proviso that Bobby Jameson is booted off the board.
The Ex Committee would love to hear that suggestion.



And imo Donegal Celtic have earned their place too via their league position, quite why Bangor are being considered for the league is beyond me.
Bangor are being considered for exactly the same reason as DC are. They were awarded a domestic license. Personally, Bangor would bring more to the IFAP than DC. Less gurning, similar support at worst and currently a far better prospect of an away trip.

[Morrissey]

It was posted on here a while back but I can't find it at the moment.

Announced on 9th May, with Portadown's future being decided this evening.

[AnnaghRed]

I suggest you look at the Coleraine case a little more carefully, and examine the similarities, or lack of, with the Portadown case

I wasn't suggesting there were any similarities, merely that Coleraine could have been relegated over the issue, same with Ballymena & Crusaders over the payment of amateur players.

I dont remember any great clamour for the exclusion of any of these clubs, and rightly so, the league needs its bigger teams, and yet the poll on IL forums suggests that around 2/3rds of IL fans want the Ports excluded for having a poxy form in late.

Bureauracy gone crazy if you ask me.


Bangor are being considered for exactly the same reason as DC are. They were awarded a domestic license

Domestic licence huh?

Call me old-fashioned, but i'm a great believer in football matters being sorted out on the pitch, and at seasons end Donegal Celtic finished 11th, pipping the mighty Glenavon by 5 points...it's looking like Bangor might just squeak runners up spot in the first division.

If Donegal Celtic are excluded, they'll certainly have my support in any protest they want to make!

[Morrissey]

I wasn't suggesting there were any similarities, merely that Coleraine could have been relegated over the issue, same with Ballymena & Crusaders over the payment of amateur players.

I dont remember any great clamour for the exclusion of any of these clubs, and rightly so, the league needs its bigger teams, and yet the poll on IL forums suggests that around 2/3rds of IL fans want the Ports excluded for having a poxy form in late.

Bureauracy gone crazy if you ask me.



Domestic licence huh?

Call me old-fashioned, but i'm a great believer in football matters being sorted out on the pitch, and at seasons end Donegal Celtic finished 11th, pipping the mighty Glenavon by 5 points...it's looking like Bangor might just squeak runners up spot in the first division.

If Donegal Celtic are excluded, they'll certainly have my support in any protest they want to make!

Football matters to an extent. But, the domestic licence was a result of UEFA guidelines so it would have been introduced regardless of a new league process. It's a huge positive for the IL. For too long clubs have got by by doing only enough on the pitch to survive, mainly down to the IFA's weak enty criteria. No other self-respecting league in the world should accept 150 seats as an acceptable specatator capacity. ATM, they will not receive a domestic license next season. There's being lenient, and there's quite frankly, taking the ****.

As for the poll. R2D2 summed up perfectly on ILS. Those who voted against Portadown did mainly - excluding those with myopic agendas and Glenavon fans - to withhold the league's integrity. This is a huge period in the IL's history, one not to be messed with. Shall we continue in the same vein with fudge aplenty, or will we finally adopt a backbone?!

[AnnaghRed]

Shall we continue in the same vein with fudge aplenty, or will we finally adopt a backbone?!

No, but a little bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss.

If "maintaining integrity" means relegating one of our more solvent & successful clubs over a form being late, then so be it.

But once they go down that route I sincerely hope that Portadown sit waiting to pounce on the slightest bureaucratic error made by any other club in the league, and smugly await their relegation. We are an amateur league, run by amateurs, it'll only be a matter of time.

As for Donegal Celtic well i'd concede that there away end is a joke, and would expect that it should be brought up to a certain standard over the summer months, but realistically its the Irish league were discussing here, and their ground is well capable of holding 1000 spectators and the only time thats likely to be exceeded is for the visit of Linfield or Glentoran.

[paudie]

Football matters to an extent. But, the domestic licence was a result of UEFA guidelines so it would have been introduced regardless of a new league process. It's a huge positive for the IL. For too long clubs have got by by doing only enough on the pitch to survive, mainly down to the IFA's weak enty criteria. No other self-respecting league in the world should accept 150 seats as an acceptable specatator capacity. ATM, they will not receive a domestic license next season. There's being lenient, and there's quite frankly, taking the ****.

?!

Agree with you on the licencing being a good thing, at least from the EL experience.

You give the clubs a list to comply with to get a licence so they've no excuses if they don't get it. Licencing process has to be independent and reasonably transparent as well.
And if they don't get if first time they know exactly what they need to do to get it next time.

Licencing should also be used by the IFA as a way of getting government funding for clubs.
Along the lines of "UEFA are making us impose certain criteria on clubs. Please allocate funds to help clubs meet them"

While in general onfield criteria should be the only factor I think the IL and EL are/were at the stage where tough decisions based partly on admin/spectator facilities have to made to improve the standard of the league as a "product".

[paudie]

DC, in their short existence, have mastered the art of smokescreens and playing victim.

They have their court cases already lined up in the event that they miss out when the results are announced on 9th May. I can think, off the top of my head, of three permutations leading to court from the results. Two of those featuring DC.

.

But DC , like any other club, is entitled to test the decision if they feel they unfairly excluded.

If the invitation procedure is done properly , as it should be anyway, and excludes DC then any cases taken by DC will fail

[Morrissey]

Agree with you on the licencing being a good thing, at least from the EL experience.

You give the clubs a list to comply with to get a licence so they've no excuses if they don't get it. Licencing process has to be independent and reasonably transparent as well.
And if they don't get if first time they know exactly what they need to do to get it next time.

Which is why, AnnaghReds, DC theoretically don't have to touch their away bank until next season. Criteria 1.02 has been postponed for a season due to the farce in the Exec Comm. reduction and the non-release of funds.


Licencing should also be used by the IFA as a way of getting government funding for clubs.
Along the lines of "UEFA are making us impose certain criteria on clubs. Please allocate funds to help clubs meet them"

It is and wil continue to be. In order for funds to be released, the IFA had to show corporate governance, and this was eventually evident in the reduction from 12 to a 10 man Exec Committee.

While in general onfield criteria should be the only factor I think the IL and EL are/were at the stage where tough decisions based partly on admin/spectator facilities have to made to improve the standard of the league as a "product".

Agree.

[Morrissey]

But DC , like any other club, is entitled to test the decision if they feel they unfairly excluded.

If the invitation procedure is done properly , as it should be anyway, and excludes DC then any cases taken by DC will fail

Both are linked, you see.

DC have started to get a bit of a reputation within the IL fraternity for smokescreens. 'All fart and no ****' was an eloquently turn of phrase. Numerous perfectly timed press releases stating their predictament with regards their stadium and their future within the IL.

Permutations from what I can see.

- Portadown's Invitational League application is considered, and they duly make the 'TWELVE'. This would lead to an appeal - leading probably to the courts - on the grounds that they clearly broke a rule by submitting their application late.
- Portadown are refused admission. DC get in. Bangor then launch an appeal against Coleraine's accumulation of league points over the past seasons while 'apparently' not a member club. A fallacy.
- Portadown are refused admission. Bangor/Stute beat DC to the 12th place, resulting in DC then going down the Coleraine route.
Fun times ahead.

[paudie]

Both are linked, you see.

DC have started to get a bit of a reputation within the IL fraternity for smokescreens. 'All fart and no ****' was an eloquently turn of phrase. Numerous perfectly timed press releases stating their predictament with regards their stadium and their future within the IL.

Permutations from what I can see.

- Portadown's Invitational League application is considered, and they duly make the 'TWELVE'. This would lead to an appeal - leading probably to the courts - on the grounds that they clearly broke a rule by submitting their application late.
- Portadown are refused admission. DC get in. Bangor then launch an appeal against Coleraine's accumulation of league points over the past seasons while 'apparently' not a member club. A fallacy.
- Portadown are refused admission. Bangor/Stute beat DC to the 12th place, resulting in DC then going down the Coleraine route.
Fun times ahead.


No doubt there will be fun and games when the decision is made but IMO it will be worth it if the league as a whole and the clubs in it are run in a more professional basis.

[AnnaghRed]

By f*ck after tonights decision every other club better cross every "t" and dot every "i" :mad:

[Graemerz]

And imo Donegal Celtic have earned their place too via their league position, quite why Bangor are being considered for the league is beyond me.

Fair comment in relation to their on-pitch antics however Bangor have a better ground, and a better fan base. If they changed their name to Bangor Celtic and wore green/white hoops they'd probably be there ahead of Donegal Celtic.


BTW has the line up for the 12 team league been finalised, bearing in mind Portadown's ongoing difficulties?

Apparently its decided on 8th May. Portadown are appealing the decision this Friday. (2nd May)

Curently I'd imagine the teams are :- Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Coleraine, Lisburn Distillery, Ballymena United, Glenavon, Dungannon Swifts, Crusaders, Donegal Celtic, Institute, Newry City. If Portadown somehow win the appeal I'd suspect Institute may make way.

[AnnaghRed]

What happens if a number of teams have made a balls of their application and less than 12 meet the criteria? Or was it just a matter of submitting the application to have it rubber-stamped?

Clutching at straws here, but i'm presuming Portadown left it so late coz they were having fine details ironed out.

[Morrissey]

If you're talking about the IFA Premiership then you're getting mixed up. The domestic licenses have been awarded, now it's the turn of the Invitational League applications.

Portadown were late submitting theirs. It is not a matter of being awarded a license but a ranking system. The top 12 teams in that ranking, with a domestic license to their name, will make up the new league.

AFAIK, the deadline for the PIL is the 31st May.