Ian Harte

[ColinR]

whats his attitude problem. he thinks he's good enough for the squad - which he is, he has moved to a new country to prove himself, and has done.

his problem (apart from speed and defensive ability (no worse than maybury), is a complete lack of tact - never criticise the manager in the media.

[Closed Account 2]

I'd give him another go in a friendly (Celtic game would be good) or if were in the Unity Cup.

He has a lot more experience than our other back up players (e.g. Maybury), having played regularly in the top leagues of England and now Spain, and having reached the Semi's of the Champions League and regularly played in the Uefa Cup. Also he is probably the best free kick taker weve ever had and the Israel game showed we are really missing in that department. Maybe Andy Reid will be able to produce from free kicks for us in the future, but he would have to be special to be as good at them as Harte.

The value of having such a good free kick taker would be great, like Mihajilovic his actual ability at defending against pacey players isnt great. Maybe we should try him out as a holding midfielder, as he has an excellent range of passing and we need more experienced midfielders once Roy Keane retires as Kav is old too.

[jimbob117]

whats his attitude problem. .


His attitude problem was that he said he doesnt know why kerr hasnt picked him but then refused to be a "late call up" for a friendly as he thought he should have been in the original squad. He hasnt been called up since.

And as for saying he is 3 times the player o shea is.. a load of rubbish if ever i heard it. while o'shea's distribution can be poor and very frustrating to watch, he is a top notch defender and defends very well. a lot better than harte, who couldnt defend to save his life. And yes, i do keep an eye on spanish soccer and havent seen a major improvement.

[Stuttgart88]

His attitude problem was that he said he doesnt know why kerr hasnt picked him but then refused to be a "late call up" for a friendly as he thought he should have been in the original squad. He hasnt been called up since.

And as for saying he is 3 times the player o shea is.. a load of rubbish if ever i heard it. while o'shea's distribution can be poor and very frustrating to watch, he is a top notch defender and defends very well. a lot better than harte, who couldnt defend to save his life. And yes, i do keep an eye on spanish soccer and havent seen a major improvement.

I don't remember that incident but it sounds about right. Kerr & Harte have obviously fallen out over something & Harte is paying for it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but up until the Czech friendly I think Harte was in nearly every Kerr squad ahead of Maybury.

Your assessment of O'Shea is spot on IMO. Sound defensively, poor distribution. I think his discomfort at left back disrupts the balance & fluidity of the side, which is why I reckon a left flank of Duff LM and Kilbane LB could be a very attractive combo.

Although we may well have better players now one of the most important features of Mick's "success" in WC2002 qualification was the balance of the side. Natural width, natural left footers on the left, right footers on the right, Quinn & Robbie complemented each other well, Keane & Kinsella likewise, and so on.

I don't think the current side is set up as well, even though we've better players in a few positions.

[Donal81]

Until we start scoring from free-kicks, putting in threatening corners and generally causing teams problems from set-plays I will continue to call for Ian Harte's return to the squad.
John O'Shea is a very limited footballer indeed, but at least he's playing in a decent league . . . just like Harte.

He causes us as many problems as he does opposing teams!

[Macy]

Harte isn't good enough. If free kicks were the pre-requisite for a berth over actual football ability, then sod Harte - bring in Stuey Holt.

[Lionel Ritchie]

he should be in the squad. possibly even the first team if it's possible to accomadate his somewhat overstated defensive shortcomings. We haven't looked a serious threat from a set piece since his omission/ departure /exclusion.

definitely has more pros than cons

[Donal81]

If his attitude was right, he'd keep his mouth shut and play his way back into the team. But it isn't so he's resorted to having a go in the newspapers. I think the bloke proved over his 50 or so caps that he can't defend that well although his free-kicks are excellent. As a defender, you're first role is to defend. If he can't defend, surely that makes him a bad choice for a defender?

[Shelsman]

I think the bloke proved over his 50 or so caps that he can't defend that well although his free-kicks are excellent. As a defender, you're first role is to defend. If he can't defend, surely that makes him a bad choice for a defender?

OK then, can you list some games where Harte was the sole cause of an Ireland goal that was conceded? Compare that to the other defenders in the current squad over games played and show us / justify your comments. Even just list 3-5 games where he was the reason why we lost a game or drew when we should've won. I can certainly list the games where he's made a key difference in us getting a better result ( e.g. in the matches he has scored or where the defence kept a clean sheet ).

[Éanna]

Never has been, never will be. Not very highly rated, and still over-rated.

[Donal81]

OK then, can you list some games where Harte was the sole cause of an Ireland goal that was conceded? Compare that to the other defenders in the current squad over games played and show us / justify your comments. Even just list 3-5 games where he was the reason why we lost a game or drew when we should've won. I can certainly list the games where he's made a key difference in us getting a better result ( e.g. in the matches he has scored or where the defence kept a clean sheet ).

Ireland v Germany 2002
Ireland v Spain 2002
Ireland v Romania 1999

Three examples right there. Does he have to concede a goal to have played poorly? Is he to be credited for a clean sheet? That's a crude way of weighing it up, compared to analysing the player himself.

[Donal81]

I'm not saying he's a poor defender because of x amount of goals conceded or whatever. I'm saying he's a poor defender because he's never impressed me.

[Stuttgart88]

Not to mention the number of times he's been caught out by a long diagonal pass over his head.

Was it Harte that was caught out against Switzerland in Dublin, or had he just been subbed? Breen messed up for the first goal.

[Shelsman]

Ireland v Germany 2002
Ireland v Spain 2002
Ireland v Romania 1999

It is now a well know fact that he was carrying an injury during the world cup, it was McCarthy's choice to play him ( and McCarthy's fault not to have had sufficient cover in the squad -or not to play Kilbane there instead ), Ian Harte did his best under the circumstances. I think that rules out the first two.

For the third one, I had a look at the FAI website and there is no record of us playing Romania in 1999.....



Is he to be credited for a clean sheet?
No, not for himself alone but certainly as a group of defenders -yes.

I agree that he has played some bad games for Ireland but I still think he is worthy of his place in the squad. I think Kerr should be big enough to include him, even if he doesn't get on with him. If he didn't get on with the other players then that would be a different matter.

[jimbob117]

It is now a well know fact that he was carrying an injury during the world cup, it was McCarthy's choice to play him ( and McCarthy's fault not to have had sufficient cover in the squad -or not to play Kilbane there instead ), Ian Harte did his best under the circumstances. I think that rules out the first two.

For the third one, I had a look at the FAI website and there is no record of us playing Romania in 1999.....
.

Now your just making excuses for him. I remember that game against romania, may not have been in 99 though. All the same he's been **** poor more times than hes been good, and no im not going to start naming all the games this has happened in as i cant remember all the dates etc, but from someone who has gone to plenty of irish matches during the years, there arent many times when ive come out saying he played well.
Thats not too say that others dont frustrate aswell, but harte more so than most, at least o'shea et al can do a decent defensive job.

[Donal81]

For the third one, I had a look at the FAI website and there is no record of us playing Romania in 1999.....

I meant the game we played in Romania. I thought it was for the 2000 qualifiers, maybe it was for the 1998 World Cup, don't attempt to prove a point that way, it was a while ago, ffs. That's a cheap way to score points, mate.

[ciaran76]

Good enough as cover or a squad player but thats it i think.

[jimbob117]

Good enough as cover or a squad player but thats it i think.

Like i said ciaran, if he sorts his attitude out he can be ok cover(considering our limited resources, but id rather push finnan out to the left than have harte there, Finnan has played there and done well there in the past.

[Donal81]

It is now a well know fact that he was carrying an injury during the world cup, it was McCarthy's choice to play him ( and McCarthy's fault not to have had sufficient cover in the squad -or not to play Kilbane there instead ), Ian Harte did his best under the circumstances. I think that rules out the first two.

I never said Ian Harte didn't do his best. He played terribly, that's what I said. You asked me for examples, I gave them to you. Whatever injury he was carrying, it mustn't have been too severe for McCarthy to start him in every game. Also, I don't care what injury he had, he failed completely to pick up Morientes for the Spanish goal. He didn't even bother to check for Klose during the German game.

[ColinR]

I never said Ian Harte didn't do his best. He played terribly, that's what I said. You asked me for examples, I gave them to you. Whatever injury he was carrying, it mustn't have been too severe for McCarthy to start him in every game. Also, I don't care what injury he had, he failed completely to pick up Morientes for the Spanish goal. He didn't even bother to check for Klose during the German game.

1) the romania match - did roy not miss a penalty that night, which based on blaming harte for the spain match above, would make roy at fault for romania.
2) the spain match - it was breen who failed to pick up morientes. harte was perfectly positioned for that goal.
3) klose's goal was mainly harte's fault, but also gary kelly allowed ballack easily take the ball nearly 40 yards and under no pressure he picked out the cross for the goal.

plus if we are blaming harte for spain, do we give him the credit for having the balls for the penalty against iran.

harte, like kilbane up til about a year ago is too easy a scapegoat. there are plenty of other players who have made errors like those mentioned, but dont get half the abuse - and that includes duff and the two keanes

[jimbob117]

1) the romania match - did roy not miss a penalty that night, which based on blaming harte for the spain match above, would make roy at fault for romania.


harte, like kilbane up til about a year ago is too easy a scapegoat. there are plenty of other players who have made errors like those mentioned, but dont get half the abuse - and that includes duff and the two keanes


Nothing was said about harte missing the penalty in the spain game? so how would that relate to Roy missing one??
And come on, dont even start getting on duff's back, god almighty the rubbish some people talk. Duff is class, how could you accuse him of making too many errors in the same way kilbane and harte do???

[Stuttgart88]

harte was perfectly positioned for that goal

No he wasn't. Breen was beaten to the header alright but as I remember it Harte failed to pick up the thrower. That's what galled me about that goal. Throw in - return pass - cross - header - goal. Picking up the taker of a throw in is so basic it's unbelievable. Sunday league stuff.

I do think Harte & Breen are both popular scapegoats though. Harte is worthy of a squad place in my view, but it's not for his ability that he's being left out.

[Donal81]

1) the romania match - did roy not miss a penalty that night, which based on blaming harte for the spain match above, would make roy at fault for romania.
2) the spain match - it was breen who failed to pick up morientes. harte was perfectly positioned for that goal.
3) klose's goal was mainly harte's fault, but also gary kelly allowed ballack easily take the ball nearly 40 yards and under no pressure he picked out the cross for the goal.

plus if we are blaming harte for spain, do we give him the credit for having the balls for the penalty against iran.

harte, like kilbane up til about a year ago is too easy a scapegoat. there are plenty of other players who have made errors like those mentioned, but dont get half the abuse - and that includes duff and the two keanes

I didn't say Harte was directly at fault for the Romania game. I was asked for a specific example of a goal he was directly responsible for and I gave it. This is a foolish, point-scoring way of making an argument, like I said. If I said I think Duff is an excellent player, would you ask me for examples of this or argue his merits as a player?

Harte wasn't perfectly positioned for the goal against Spain, that's just not true. He didn't track back in the German game for that goal. Gary Kelly might have lost out too easily but Harte didn't do his defensive duties, which is the point of all this.

Kilbane wasn't made a scapegoat for poor performances. Kilbane played woefully in game after game for Ireland, culiminating in his substitution against Switzerland at home in McCarthy's last game. His turnaround began then.

I'm not part of some anti-Harte bandwagon and I don't think I've given him any unfair abuse. I don't think he's a quality defender; I think his ability at free-kicks is great but that's not good enough for a defender; I've rarely been impressed by him.

Plenty of other players make errors - John O'Shea's howler against the Swiss in Basel, for example - and I don't go leaping for his throat. I think that Harte has had more than enough chances - he's been in the squad since when, 1997? - to prove he can do a decent job at left-back and I don't think he's ever proved himself. This, combined with his mouthing off in the papers, doesn't exactly endear him to me or, I'm sure, Brian Kerr.

[Stuttgart88]

Actually just to clarify my last point, I'd select Harte ahead of Maybury but if we were ever to try an alternative to O'Shea at left back I do think it's worth considering Kilbane, so there'd be no need for a third left back in the squad.

[ColinR]

I didn't say Harte was directly at fault for the Romania game. I was asked for a specific example of a goal he was directly responsible for and I gave it.

sorry, read through above posts a bit too fast and thought it was games his was at fault for - oops

still say breen was at fault for spain - harte came out to stop winger taking ball - the thrower should not have been unmarked (kilbane?) and breen should have been ahead of morientes, but as you said all this is irrelevant.

the point of the thread is, should he be in the squad. i cant believe the answer could be anything but yes. we lack so much inventiveness under kerr its unreal - at least hartes passing, crossing and deadballs can create something, if needed.

obviously, there are questions about his defending, but is errors are less than he gets blamed for - see the spain goal for example (two other players more at fault, and yet peopple here blame him ) :rolleyes:

if were picking 20 odd in a squad, surely we can accomadate him

[Stuttgart88]

his mouthing off in the papers, doesn't exactly endear him to me or, I'm sure, Brian Kerr.

I think he'd be in the squad if it wasn't for his response to being dropped. I also think he must have been dropped for some sort of falling out with Kerr over his management style.

Was Harte consistently in the team / squad under Kerr up to any one point, and then suddenly left out completely? This would back up my suspicion. If he was in and out of the sqaud then I'm probably off the mark.

Gary Kelly was an intense McCarthy loyalist, a factor in his retirement probably, and I wonder if this has anything to do with the Harte situation. Harte owes a huge debt to Mick too.

Sometimes I wonder if players like Steven Reid are seen by Kerr as being too much of Mick's legacy.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw in a conspiracy theory for Friday morning.

[Shelsman]

I meant the game we played in Romania. I thought it was for the 2000 qualifiers, maybe it was for the 1998 World Cup, don't attempt to prove a point that way, it was a while ago, ffs. That's a cheap way to score points, mate.

Look Bud, the only one keeping score of 'points' is you! If you meant another date then fine, I did look at the years either side and didn't see Romania there -if I did I would have asked you if you meant that particular match. The only match I can see close to the dates you gave is 1997, so with this in mind, it's probably a bit unfair to judge a players worthiness of being in a 2005 squad based on a match he played in 1997!!!

OK, I've no problem accepting that you think he is a poor player and that there have been matches where he has played poorly and/or given goals away, but for me, I counteract that with the goals he's scored and created and the games he did play well ( defensively and offensively ). As a matter of fact I think he is just as error prone as the Honey Monster -and yet he is in the squad. Steve Finnan also had one of the worst games for an Irish Full Back that I've seen when we lost 4-2 away to Russia. Don't get me wrong, I think Dunne and Finnan should be in the squad too.

[stojkovic]

You're right about Gary Kelly being a McCarthyite. He was the first to speak with Keane walked out of the room.
It amazes me how players don't walk out on their clubs when theres a new manager, obviously the 50k a week is the reason, but do it for their countries. Half of them probably couldnt be arsed anyway, especially if they're on the bench like Kelly.

To think McCarthy played him ahead of the best fullback in the Prem that season (Finnan) and an injured McAteer in front of him against Cameroon. Maybe we'd have won the game and had the easy route to the final that the Germans had. Now theres a 'what if'.

[eirebhoy]

Was Harte consistently in the team / squad under Kerr up to any one point, and then suddenly left out completely? This would back up my suspicion. If he was in and out of the sqaud then I'm probably off the mark.
He didn't make the squads for Kerr's first 2 qualifiers. He could have been injured though as Jeff Kenna was on the bench for the 2 games. :eek: He was in all the other squads though. He then got injured and missed the 4 summer friendlies. Kerr didn't call him up to the Bulgaria friendly to give him time to settle in Spain iirc. Maybe there was a rift.

[Donal81]

Look Bud, the only one keeping score of 'points' is you! If you meant another date then fine, I did look at the years either side and didn't see Romania there -if I did I would have asked you if you meant that particular match. The only match I can see close to the dates you gave is 1997, so with this in mind, it's probably a bit unfair to judge a players worthiness of being in a 2005 squad based on a match he played in 1997!!!

OK, I've no problem accepting that you think he is a poor player and that there have been matches where he has played poorly and/or given goals away, but for me, I counteract that with the goals he's scored and created and the games he did play well ( defensively and offensively ). As a matter of fact I think he is just as error prone as the Honey Monster -and yet he is in the squad. Steve Finnan also had one of the worst games for an Irish Full Back that I've seen when we lost 4-2 away to Russia. Don't get me wrong, I think Dunne and Finnan should be in the squad too.

The way you wrote it, it seemed as if you were making a point out of something. I had gotten the dates wrong, therefore my entire point was meaningless. If that wasn't the case, I apologise.

If it's unfair to judge a player on something that happened in 1997, why didn't you give me a timescale? If Harte scored from that period, I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem including that. I'm talking about Harte's career for Ireland, during which I don't think he's been great. He's been poor for a large part of it.

I have said plenty of times that his passing abilities are excellent. To be honest, I'd prefer to rely on our midfielders for creativity and let our defenders do the defending. If they can attack as well as defend, that's great. If they can only attack, either put them in midfield or upfront or drop them because they shouldn't be in defence. That's my problem with Harte right there - he'll cause us as much trouble as he'll make for our opponents.

[Donal81]

If his attitude wasn't so questionable, he'd deserve a place in the squad as cover. Combined with his defensive failings, I don't think he's missed. Our free-kicks against Israel were absolutely appaling and that has to be worked on but I don't think Ian Harte is the solution to this team's problems.

[Stuttgart88]

Apart from direct free kicks on goal, you'd expect Duff and then Kav & Reid to deliver quality corners and wide frees.

How many goals has Duff set up for Terry & co this season? I was only at one Chelsea game this season, against CSKA Moscow, & I think both Chelsea's goals were headed in from Duff set-pieces. Certainly the second one was. So we shouldn't have to rely on Harte for his set-piece skills.

The delivery against Israel was crap, but then again when you've no natural offensive headers of the ball you can whip in all the best frees in the world and you'll get a poor return.

But we scored from frees/corners against Bulgaria, Portugal & Cyprus recently. Any others?

[Stuttgart88]

He didn't make the squads for Kerr's first 2 qualifiers. He could have been injured though as Jeff Kenna was on the bench for the 2 games. :eek: He was in all the other squads though. He then got injured and missed the 4 summer friendlies. Kerr didn't call him up to the Bulgaria friendly to give him time to settle in Spain iirc. Maybe there was a rift.

Thanks, not the comprehensive endorsement of my theory that I'm looking for though! Maybe he just lost possession of his place & moaned too much. I still think there must be more to it though so we can debate the merits of his inclusion until the cows come home, he ain't gonna get picked.

[Shelsman]

If it's unfair to judge a player on something that happened in 1997, why didn't you give me a timescale? If Harte scored from that period, I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem including that. I'm talking about Harte's career for Ireland, during which I don't think he's been great.

Fair enough.

[Dotsy]

Looks like Harte has been called up to the squad for the Israel/Faroes games. He must of made up with Kerr.

[Donal81]

I haven't missed him and his attitude has been questionable. Fair play to him for getting back in and let's hope he's not as brutal as he was when Kerr left him out.

[gustavo]

according to gerry mcdermott in todays irish independent harte plays for levante in the Spanish Serie A. :rolleyes:

[Slash/ED]

Funnily enough hasn't he just been dropped by Levante? Strange timing that, I thought he'd been dropped for the past few games after poor performances.

[blobbyblob]

Funnily enough hasn't he just been dropped by Levante? Strange timing that, I thought he'd been dropped for the past few games after poor performances.


correct - no show for the barcelona game. thought their two full backs did very well against barca

[soylent green]

With 4 going down (?) in La Liga Levante will have to win their last 2 games to have any chance of staying up.

[Closed Account 2]

I think 3 go down, two of which are already confirmed, so the last one is between Mallorca and Levante. Mallorca currently occupy the last relegation place and are 1 point behind Levante. Goal difference doesnt count in Spain (head to head record does, and Levante have the better one), so they are in the slightly stronger position, but I dont know what each team's run in is like.

[soylent green]

Nice one. Hopefully they can stay up so.

[Colie]

So does this mean an end to all the 'Bring Back Harte' threads on here? I'll miss them.

They always ended up as "Hartey is the worst full back we've ever had" threads.

[Donal81]

They always ended up as "Hartey is the worst full back we've ever had" threads.

Keep an eye out for those threads in a few months!!

I have a feeling that those who called for his return will be screaming for his early retirement ;)

[Poor Student]

Does anyone remember the rumours linking him with Inter several years back? :confused:

Has anyone actually been following his progress in Spain? Is there any chance he has broadened his game there? I had always hoped he would move to Serie A (or rather somehow some scout would con a club into buying him) and he may improve his defensive game in the most defensive of leagues. On the other hand I think the defence in La Liga is not even as good as the Premiership let alone Serie A so I am not sure this move would be any particular benefit to his game. Has he fallen out of the team on form?

[Dublin12]

Hartey is snailman,no pace at all,too slow for international football,reached his peak about 5 years ago,the only thing going for him is he's good at deadball situations,except for penalties :eek:

[northerncelt]

glad hartey is back on squad. although i would prefer 2 see him on bench cos i dont think his confidence can be very high especially as he may be overly keen to prove himself to kerr. lets hope he doesnt read this forum or his confidence will be at all time low!!!!!
has he lost his place in spain??? if he has then this really is a strange call up given the fact that he couldnt get one whilst he was playing regularly but he def merits a squad place.
sorry to the doc but he should not b there if he cant get on norwich bench. full stop.
the real problems are upfront as usual. Hope clint makes a move in summer. think that sunderland wud be a good move for him as he would play regularly there and has potential to score regularly.

[eirebhoy]

has he lost his place in spain??? if he has then this really is a strange call up given the fact that he couldnt get one whilst he was playing regularly but he def merits a squad place.
No, he was injured for the Barca afaik. Put it this way, he has started every game he was available for. He went off after an hour in the previous match and didn't even make the bench for the Barca game (they have 7 subs in Spain afaik). That to me suggests he's injured. :)

[NeilMcD]

Anyone I know from Drogheda says that Harte is sound a real genuine guy and that his uncle Kelly is a ****** but I never met either of them. But at the end of the day football is all about ability on the field when picking a team, but maybe not when picking a squad.

[sligoman]

Ian Harte has been recalled to the Irish squad for the first time in more than a year for the forthcoming World Cup qualifiers against Israel and the Faroe Islands.

Harte has spent the past season in the Spanish Primera Liga with Valencia side Levante UD.

However, his departure from England, where he left Leeds United last summer, coincided with his fall from grace in Irish international terms.

The Drogheda native, whose last senior appearance came in a 0-0 draw in Poland in April 2004, withdrew from last summer’s friendly programme through injury and has until now been unable to regain his place in Brian Kerr’s plans.

But the 27-year-old is back in the fold for the qualifiers against Israel in Dublin on Saturday fortnight and the Faroes in Torshavn four days later.

Gary Breen is included in the squad despite concerns over his fitness after picking up a knee injury on the final day of the season, while there is a return to the panel of Steven Reid, who impressed for Blackburn Rovers in the second half of the Premiership season.

With the Spanish season not yet finished and Liverpool taking part in the Champions League final against AC Milan in Istanbul next Wednesday, Harte and Steve Finnan will be allowed to join up late with the Irish squad.

The remainder of the party, however, will assemble in Dublin on Tuesday and Wednesday next, to prepare for the Jackie McNamara testimonial against a Celtic XI at Parkhead on Saturday May 29th.

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/worldcup2006/irish_soccer_detail.asp?newsid=17380