View Full Version : Should China Be Allowed To Host Olympics?
Block G Raptor
07/04/2008, 12:01 PM
Was watching this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7332942.stm) on BBC yesterday and have to say was delighted to see so many people out in support of Tibet and highlighting China's atrocious Human Rights record. should they be allowed to host the Olympics or is the event's ethos of unity through sport being sullied by the games being hosted by an oppressive regime?
More Pics (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/7333108.stm)
If it was ok to award China the Olympics i think it was 7 years ago then I don't see what has changed. I also think it would be hypocritical to trade with China but somehow justify boycotting a sports event. They held the womens football World Cup last year or the year before & was no public out cry. Should other communist states such as North Korea & Cuba to allowed to compete. Where does it stop. While I have no doubt many protesters are genuine there is surely an element of people latching onto fashionable cause too.
Chinese colleague at work was laughing at picture in the paper that showed all the security (i got the impression he had no time for the protesters) & I didn't know what to say to him.
It has been argued that by awarding China the Olympics Tibet has received more publicity & I think that is true but if don't know if makes any difference to their cause.
Bit late in the day to now question whether they should've been allowed host it to be honest. Boycotting would be the right option, but not a hope in hell of that happening as sport is more important than human rights apparently.
I noticed the litany of UK sports people carrying the torch saying that you shouldn't mix sport and politics - one of the stops for the torch relay was Downing Street. :rolleyes:
GavinZac
07/04/2008, 1:31 PM
If the USA are allowed to compete I'd imagine China should be allowed to host.
Block G Raptor
07/04/2008, 2:07 PM
Protesters in Paris have extinguished the Flame. (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/197229,torch-extinguished-as-protesters-disrupt-relay-in-paris--2nd-update.html)
kingdom hoop
07/04/2008, 3:01 PM
The IOC should never have awarded Beijing the games in the first place. Anyone who knows anything about motivation would appreciate that you entice a donkey to move by holding a carrot out in front of him, not first feed him the carrot and then hope he'll do what you want. It would now be an ironic - though surely not unexpected by most - twist if politics darkens the IOC bigwigs' big shiny "we can change the world" event.
The games should, and presumably will, go ahead. While I would support them being leveraged in some way to embarrass The People's Censored Republic of China, I wonder how effective any boycotts would be given China's pig-headedness. One idea might be that at the opening ceremony (perhaps the biggest publicity showcase) all the athletes would walk behind their nations' flags as per usual but instead of wearing their team tracksuits they could wear some Free Tibet garb. The point would be forcefully made - visually, it would be very impressive. And you could leave it at that; let the contestants then forget about political matters, and focus on themselves rather than a continuous shadow being cast over the Games by intermittent protests.
I noticed the litany of UK sports people carrying the torch saying that you shouldn't mix sport and politics - one of the stops for the torch relay was Downing Street. :rolleyes:
Yes but Gordon Brown never held the torch. I dont like China and am totally against their actions in relation to Tibet but I fail to see how the actions of the protestors in London and Paris is going to help the Tibetan people.
Dricky
07/04/2008, 3:50 PM
Countries that have not sinned, can cast the first human rights violation.
Countries that have not sinned, can cast the first human rights violation.
Can't wait to see who Luxemburg lob theirs at :)
BohsPartisan
07/04/2008, 4:36 PM
Yes but Gordon Brown never held the torch. I dont like China and am totally against their actions in relation to Tibet but I fail to see how the actions of the protestors in London and Paris is going to help the Tibetan people.
I think there is a lot of ignorance on the Tibet situation. Obviously the Tibetan people are oppressed by the Chinese but the Free Tibet movement is directed not at achieving democracy for them but subjecting them once again to the yoke of Lamaism where they were ruled by priests and warlords. It would be like in the 80's going to a USSR out of Afghanistan protest that supported the Taliban.
tricky_colour
07/04/2008, 6:31 PM
Who had heard of Tibet before the Olympics?
Not me thats for sure.
Poor Student
07/04/2008, 6:37 PM
I think there is a lot of ignorance on the Tibet situation. Obviously the Tibetan people are oppressed by the Chinese but the Free Tibet movement is directed not at achieving democracy for them but subjecting them once again to the yoke of Lamaism where they were ruled by priests and warlords. It would be like in the 80's going to a USSR out of Afghanistan protest that supported the Taliban.
I don't know about other Dalai Lamas but I think the current one would have or still would carry out reform to modernise the Tibetan state. There's no point in comparing a modern Tibetan state to how it was over half a century ago. The Dalai Lama himself only calls for constructive dialogue with Beijing to bring about a stable and peaceful Tibet under China, not independence.
DaveyCakes
07/04/2008, 6:43 PM
The games should, and presumably will, go ahead. While I would support them being leveraged in some way to embarrass The People's Censored Republic of China, I wonder how effective any boycotts would be given China's pig-headedness. One idea might be that at the opening ceremony (perhaps the biggest publicity showcase) all the athletes would walk behind their nations' flags as per usual but instead of wearing their team tracksuits they could wear some Free Tibet garb. The point would be forcefully made - visually, it would be very impressive. And you could leave it at that; let the contestants then forget about political matters, and focus on themselves rather than a continuous shadow being cast over the Games by intermittent protests.
And in what parallel Universe would this be allowed to happen?
BohsPartisan
07/04/2008, 8:44 PM
There's no point in comparing a modern Tibetan state to how it was over half a century ago.
Why not? When Soviet rule was overturned in Afghanistan the country went back centuries. Who's to say the families of the old ruling elite aren't ready to step into the breach.
Yes but Gordon Brown never held the torch. I dont like China and am totally against their actions in relation to Tibet but I fail to see how the actions of the protestors in London and Paris is going to help the Tibetan people.
Highlighting the fact that people aren't happy with the suppression of the Tibetan people? Highlighting that what is actually going on, and bringing the issues to a wider audience? For example:
Who had heard of Tibet before the Olympics?
Why not? When Soviet rule was overturned in Afghanistan the country went back centuries. Who's to say the families of the old ruling elite aren't ready to step into the breach.
The Dalai Lama has said he'd introduce democracy, and we can only take him at face value. A lot of the stuff about wanting autonomy, rather than independence, is pragmatic given the number of ethnic chinese that have been planted in Tibet. Doesn't alter the fact that Chinese rule is bad for Tibet.
When Soviet rule was overturned in Afghanistan the country went back centuries.
Soviet rule of Afghanistan probably brought living standards up to 16th century level so they dropped back to the 13th century.
I think China has come a long way & IMO China will eventually have to provide more representation for its people because they demand it. I can see this happening in the next 20 odd years. I don't know enough about the situation in Dafur but strange that Tibet getting all the publicity when it is not like people dying of hunger in Tibet.
Tibet seems to be colonised gradually as more Chinese move there but in the end the world does not care enough to act. We can talk all we like but are we going to stop buying Chinese goods?
kingdom hoop
08/04/2008, 11:37 PM
I think there is a lot of ignorance on the Tibet situation.
:confused: Hey what do you know that you're not telling us?:)
Seems to me Tibetans are being inexorably marginalised - Tibet is quickly becoming Han-dominated in cultural and economic terms, and crucially for their morale, their spiritual leader is exiled. And you think we should leave well alone as this happens? And this is China we're talking about!! Expect Tibetans to be the 21st century's Aborigines IMHO. :(
Lim till i die
10/04/2008, 9:14 AM
If the USA are allowed to compete I'd imagine China should be allowed to host.
Spot on.
All this wailing and knashing of teeth amongst the more limp wristed members of the left about this is really getting my goat.
I doubt there's a country capable of hosting the Olympics that isn't "nasty" to some minority somewhere on a daily basis.
It's what big countries do.
Monkfish
10/04/2008, 9:31 AM
I doubt there's a country capable of hosting the Olympics that isn't "nasty" to some minority somewhere on a daily basis.
Canada did a fine job! :)
Lim till i die
10/04/2008, 9:44 AM
Canada did a fine job! :)
But they hunt cute little baby seals :eek:
As soon as countries stop trading with china, they can then start to ask for a boycott on the Olympics.
It should also be noted that the dalai lama and the exiled Tibetan government haven't asked for a boycott
Monkfish
10/04/2008, 9:54 AM
But they hunt cute little baby seals :eek:
As an Olympic sport? :eek:
rambler14
10/04/2008, 10:27 AM
Free Tibet is a noble campaign but I can see things turning violent.
Pretty soon police forces will be using brutality to stem the protesters.
For some reason I can see car bombs going off. I know these people are supposedly peaceful but in every group there is always one radicle with a bomb!
jebus
10/04/2008, 10:35 AM
Free Tibet is a noble campaign but I can see things turning violent.
Pretty soon police forces will be using brutality to stem the protesters.
For some reason I can see car bombs going off. I know these people are supposedly peaceful but in every group there is always one radicle with a bomb!
Anything that brings down the world's population is a-ok with me. :)
Honestly though I'm with Gavin and LtiD on this one, if oppressive America are allowed in the Olympics than oppressive China should be allowed host it, and thats leaving aside the other oppressive countries competing. If we're to follow some people's train of thought on this then Ireland shouldn't be allowed compete given the American military's continued use of Shannon Airport.
Me thinks 'Free Tibet' is this years 'Make Poverty History', all noble bandwagons that are populated by a large percentage of wannabe moral authorities.
I think Free Tibet has been around for a long time, and lest we forget it was the riots in Tibet itself that re-invigorated the campaign rather than some western lefties.
Lim till i die
10/04/2008, 10:47 AM
I think Free Tibet has been around for a long time, and lest we forget it was the riots in Tibet itself that re-invigorated the campaign rather than some western lefties.
Without said lefties no one would have given a monkeys about the riots though.
EDIT: Not that the vast majority of people give a monkeys now anyway.
I'm sure there's lots of protests going on in far less fashionable places too.........
It was covered in the news as a major story, or are you suggesting the likes of the BBC and Sky (of all places) are part of a big left conspiracy to hijack the Olympics? It was just great timing for the protesters, with the torch relay about to start.
I'm sure there were protests in less fashionable places - not sure they were slapped down in a similar manner?
Lim till i die
10/04/2008, 11:14 AM
It was covered in the news as a major story, or are you suggesting the likes of the BBC and Sky (of all places) are part of a big left conspiracy to hijack the Olympics? It was just great timing for the protesters, with the torch relay about to start.
It was covered on the news.
And the vast majority of people didn't care, nor do they care now.
Boom, Boom.
not sure they were slapped down in a similar manner?
If all these protestors are going to have a whinge about China there are literally dozens of countries they should be having a whinge about while they are at it.
You're a bright boy, why the playing dumb??
Protests in London and San Francisco about Chinas human rights record??
Time for the west to climb down from its high horse
Dodge
10/04/2008, 11:24 AM
You're a bright boy, why the playing dumb??
Quite. You know full well why they're doing this now, as opposed to some time last year...
jebus
10/04/2008, 11:34 AM
I think Free Tibet has been around for a long time, and lest we forget it was the riots in Tibet itself that re-invigorated the campaign rather than some western lefties.
Indeed, Brad Pitt has been harping on about it for a few years now, he must be wondering why no one took any notice until now, possibly the beginning of the end for Mr.Pitt's career? :rolleyes:
As LtiD said though, Americans, British and French (as much as I love their rebellious hearts) lecturing anyone on their moral obligations to another nations citizens is laughable at best
I'm sure there were protests in less fashionable places - not sure they were slapped down in a similar manner?
He says as the Gardai are allowed free reign to beat protestors in Rossport and Tara without anyone batting an eyelid
Dodge
10/04/2008, 11:45 AM
He says as the Gardai are allowed free reign to beat protestors in Rossport and Tara without anyone batting an eyelid
In fairness the people who complained about the oppression of tibetan protesters are more than likely going to feel the same way about Tara and Rossport
Just like the British, French and USAers that are protesting are just as likely to protest abotu stite in their own country.
I'm sure there are protests everyday of the week in London/ San Fran (and lots of other US cities), that simply don't get the coverage, as they don't have the focus of something like a torch relay. Similarly, Rossport and Tara do have people who care, just not a receptive media to cover them.
I am pretty dumb, but even I know just because it's not on the tele or in the newspapers, it doesn't mean protests aren't happening or there aren't people who care. Unless you really believe that the leaders of a country reflect the views and actions of the entire population – are you calling me a corrupt perjure, for example?
As for Brad Pitt, surely only jumping on the 1990's Beasties band wagon? ;)
jebus
10/04/2008, 12:00 PM
In fairness the people who complained about the oppression of tibetan protesters are more than likely going to feel the same way about Tara and Rossport
Just like the British, French and USAers that are protesting are just as likely to protest abotu stite in their own country.
Not in the same numbers though, I know the ring leaders would be the same but when you look at the numbers that attend the rallies for Tibet as opposed to the support shown for something like Rossport you see that all these things come down to is a catchy slogan to catch mass attention for a few months, it gives the extreme left something to do, and the media a story to get worked up about and sell subscriptions/papers. At the end of it though when you have a country like America trying to get on it's high horse about China's occupation of Tibet it's little wonder that nothing ever comes of these protests and threatened boycotts
Dodge
10/04/2008, 12:15 PM
Not in the same numbers though, I know the ring leaders would be the same but when you look at the numbers that attend the rallies for Tibet as opposed to the support shown for something like Rossport
But thats because the timing is better. stick the olympics in Rossport and see what turns up...
At the end of it though when you have a country like America trying to get on it's high horse about China's occupation of Tibet it's little wonder that nothing ever comes of these protests and threatened boycotts
America isn't doing anything over Tibet. Some americans are, but the nation isn't doing a tap.
jebus
10/04/2008, 12:24 PM
But thats because the timing is better. stick the olympics in Rossport and see what turns up...
Honestly, I doubt the Irish could care less if Jesus came back, joined the protest and got beaten to a bloody pulp. People in this country only care about what's in their pocket at the time of asking
America isn't doing anything over Tibet. Some americans are, but the nation isn't doing a tap.
The American media have been covering it pretty well, and the American media don't publish stories without that government stamp on it. I'd say Bush and his cronies are very happy with the amount of negative press China is getting over this, takes away form the body count in Iraq and Afghanistan for a while. Will they actively come out and endorse sanctions on China? No, China is too powerful a country for America to stand up to*
* I'd just like to point out at this point that I don't agree with China's occupation of Tibet, I just don't see why everyone is suddenly in a frenzy over a problem that is 50+ years old
GavinZac
10/04/2008, 12:25 PM
Of course its not doing a thing about tibet, with america's economy the way it is, its a wholly owned subsidiary of the PR of China
* I'd just like to point out at this point that I don't agree with China's occupation of Tibet, I just don't see why everyone is suddenly in a frenzy over a problem that is 50+ years old
I think thats sums it up for me.
I could debate if an boycott of the opening ceremony by officials (not athletes) but suggestions of complete boycott have zero credibility. Asking athletes to boycott the ceremony is cowardly.
If I was a cynic I would suggest that the Dali Lama does not want independence or democracy for Tibet but just wants the Chinese powers to give his religion administrative powers in Tibet.
BohsPartisan
12/04/2008, 10:51 PM
If I was a cynic I would suggest that the Dali Lama does not want independence or democracy for Tibet but just wants the Chinese powers to give his religion administrative powers in Tibet.
Holy sh1t. I agree with Pete.
Holy sh1t. I agree with Pete.
Welcome to the dark side.
Can I close the Current Affairs forum now. :p
Superhoops
13/04/2008, 12:43 PM
* I'd just like to point out at this point that I don't agree with China's occupation of Tibet, I just don't see why everyone is suddenly in a frenzy over a problem that is 50+ years old
It's a good job that attitude did not prevail over Northern Ireland!
John83
13/04/2008, 4:16 PM
Who had heard of Tibet before the Olympics?
Not me thats for sure.
I don't see a smilie. Is it a joke? Are people really that ignorant of the world? Don't take this the wrong way TC - it's not aimed at you. I keep hearing this comment that people hadn't heard of it, and it shocks me to a similar extent that hearing that some stupid bint on Big Brother thought buffalos have wings. Could we get a poll? I'm really curious about this.
some stupid bint on Big Brother thought buffalos have wings.
Never mind Tibet, that's freaking hilarious :D:D.
Just as a side note to the debate, and maybe it's not entirely relevent as I know it's all about the publicity, but the Olympics themselves are entirely devalued at this stage.
bennocelt
24/04/2008, 7:59 PM
I think there is a lot of ignorance on the Tibet situation. Obviously the Tibetan people are oppressed by the Chinese but the Free Tibet movement is directed not at achieving democracy for them but subjecting them once again to the yoke of Lamaism where they were ruled by priests and warlords. It would be like in the 80's going to a USSR out of Afghanistan protest that supported the Taliban.
Def agree here.
For all the talk about the Dala lama, the monks etc treated their own people like ****e for years before the chinese stepped in.
But then having said that Tibet should have some sort of self rule.
This seems to have dropped won the media radar.
Aside from Chinese protesting about Westerners protesting I can't remember much news on in the last couple of weeks.
Free Tibet flags made in China (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm)
Police in southern China have discovered a factory manufacturing Free Tibet flags, media reports say
I guess no boycott of Chinese products. :D
Lim till i die
29/04/2008, 11:21 AM
Free Tibet flags made in China (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm)
I guess no boycott of Chinese products. :D
Outstanding :D
Had an interesting conversation about Tibet with Chinese guy living here.
He said he was no fan of Chinese government but human rights no better or worse in Tibet than mainland China. Since human rights have improved in China same could be said of Tibet. He believed (I have not checked but possibly true) that Tibet has never been independent so if China had not taken over then someone else would have. As seen by anti-France protests (when Olympic flame intercepted) criticism of China is actually fueling support nationalistic support for the Chinese communist party government.
bennocelt
11/05/2008, 8:54 AM
Had an interesting conversation about Tibet with Chinese guy living here.
He said he was no fan of Chinese government but human rights no better or worse in Tibet than mainland China. Since human rights have improved in China same could be said of Tibet. He believed (I have not checked but possibly true) that Tibet has never been independent so if China had not taken over then someone else would have. As seen by anti-France protests (when Olympic flame intercepted) criticism of China is actually fueling support nationalistic support for the Chinese communist party government.
yeah thats the thing, the Chinese treat their own people with contempt so they are hardly about to treat Tibetans with care
And you can kind of see the Chinese way of thinking whne you consider that the USa and Uk and france hardly have the moral high ground. I mean shouldnt te Usa and Uk be really banned from the olympics considering they are in two different countries at the moment?
But then on the other hand, millions protested against this ...while in china they keep silent
Da Real Rover
14/05/2008, 1:02 AM
The Dalai Lama and Co had personal ownership of thousands of Tibetans, yes slaves. Tibet was no utopia before the Chinese stepped in, in fact it was a throw back to feudal times.
But to ban China would be ridiculous.
If thats the case well then obviously ban America and Britain.
Not to mention Turkey because of the Kurds.
Russia because of Chechnya (which seems to have completely dissapeared off the western media agenda since Putin is now one of us).
Israel.
Sudan.
South Africa because of the way the cape coloureds are treated.
Zimbabwae.
Burma.
Spain.
Saudi Arabia.
oooh the list goes on.
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