Calls for University in the South-East

[John83]

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojgbaukfau/

I can't imagine there's sufficient demand for another university in this country. Which is not to say that I don't see this happening. They'll just water down what a university is further, until it means little more than 'dominant regional IT or better'. What is it with people in this country demanding that every service be provided within commuting distance of their house? Without any knowledge of the actual merits of the scheme (or lack thereof), people oppose specialist medical services being centralised, because it would be inconvenient. People want Post Offices maintained in every village, even where there's no demand for them. I just don't understand it.

[teckno]

Way over the top John

Yes there is sufficient demand for another University and that University must be designated to Waterford, Waterford is the only City in this country that does not have a University on it's campus, WIT has made remarkable strides so much so that the Jim Port report has shown the capability of WIT to be upgraded to a Uni, why John should the south east region be left lagging behind everybody else in this regard!!

On the medical side, to say that "people oppose specialist medical services being centralised, because it would be inconvenient" is a load of rubbish, try travelling from Waterford to Dublin each day like many cancer sufferers have done for year because this government would not provide the neccesary facilities for this region, it is about time that Waterford stood up for itself on these issues and not allow us to be neglected any longer, WIT deserves it's upgrade now to a University and this must happen asap

[Risteard]

Not exactly Breaking News.
I think this application is a few years old and a few comments from the Dep of Education a while back seemed to set it up for the knock-back.
In the meantime, CIT and DIT are considerring similar applications apparently.

[GavinZac]

WIT - the most ironic acronym in Irish education.

[superfrank]

Good one Gav.

Here, let's have DIT upgraded first. AFAIK, the admins have put the wheels in motion on becoming a university.

Aside, what advantages does being a university have over being an IT?

Also, IIRC Trinity and UCD were complaining recently about being under-funded. It's not worth starting another uni if two of the countries leading ones are already "underfunded".

[John83]

Way over the top John
A bit of a rant yes, but there are some questions I would like answered, and there is an attitude problem.


Yes there is sufficient demand for another University
Is there? The last I hear, number of students taking the Leaving Cert is falling. I recall projections that the ITs were going to come under pressure from falling numbers and some of them would disappear. Why do we need more universities?


and that University must be designated to Waterford...
That I'll grant. It's next on the list in terms of population. My question is why not Dundalk too? And Tralee? Ennis? Naas? There has to be a certain need for universities in the country, and I think it's fairly fulfilled.


, Waterford is the only City in this country that does not have a University on it's campus, WIT has made remarkable strides so much so that the Jim Port report has shown the capability of WIT to be upgraded to a Uni, why John should the south east region be left lagging behind everybody else in this regard!!
Firstly, Port's report hasn't, to my knowledge, been published. Until it has, quoting it as supporting WIT's claim for university status is not going to convince me. There's no detail, just a fuzzy positive vibe interpreted by biased councillors.

Second, my parish is being left lagging behind also. And yes, that sentence was written to annoy you, and for no other reason. The thing is, I've already wondered why people in this country expect everything to be within commuting distance. If we need another university, by all means put it in Waterford, but if not, the current distribution is in line with the main population centres anyway. I'd contend that the majority of people don't commute to university anyway, and putting one in Waterford wouldn't change that statistic much at all.


On the medical side, to say that "people oppose specialist medical services being centralised, because it would be inconvenient" is a load of rubbish, try travelling from Waterford to Dublin each day like many cancer sufferers have done for year because this government would not provide the neccesary facilities for this region,
How about you try getting misdiagnosed as not having breast cancer because an overworked non-specialist used an elderly piece of junk best suited to life as an inconveniently large paperweight to make the diagnosis. That's happened too. My anecdote outdoes yours. No, wait, it doesn't. They're just anecdotes. How about we let someone who's actually looked at the figures and thought about how to optimally allocate the limited funding do their jobs. They can't, be cause this kind of attitude prevails all over the country:

it is about time that Waterford stood up for itself on these issues and not allow us to be neglected any longer, WIT deserves it's upgrade now to a University and this must happen asap

[pete]

Can someone tell me what is involved in upgrading to a University?

From what I have heard lecturers in ITs has a good job as basically get summer holidays like schools. AFAIK University means research so in theory have to work in the summer too?

If WIT was to become a University what would be its speciality?

[osarusan]

How about we let someone who's actually looked at the figures and thought about how to optimally allocate the limited funding do their jobs.
How about we let that happen with regard to potential new universities too.

[blackholesun]

solution to universtity funding problem / knowledge based economy ...

in alot of courses alot of first years drop out during the year or else spend the whole year sitting in the union or never go into a lecture coz they are back in the flat riding their new bird / fella all the time etc etc and then fail the year.

The new rule should be anyone who fails first year has to repay the fees themselves. You could either pay up a lump sum or it would be taken as taxes once you get a job.

All the money saved on this, should then be diverted into PHD / postgrads funding instead. The amnount of taxes wasted every year on dopey first years is a disgrace!

bhs

[pete]

in alot of courses alot of first years drop out during the year or else spend the whole year sitting in the union or never go into a lecture coz they are back in the flat riding their new bird / fella all the time etc etc and then fail the year.

The new rule should be anyone who fails first year has to repay the fees themselves. You could either pay up a lump sum or it would be taken as taxes once you get a job.
bhs

Although a bit off topic I agree. I think current rule is you pay for the repeated year?

[John83]

How about we let that happen with regard to potential new universities too.
Would love to. Can't find anything of the sort though.

[OneRedArmy]

Given the success of universities, in an increasingly global higher education market, is dependant on building critical mass in specialised areas through attracting staff and research grants, would it not be more sensible to provide investment to improving our current universities rather than establishing a mediocre new university?

[Macy]

in alot of courses alot of first years drop out during the year or else spend the whole year sitting in the union or never go into a lecture coz they are back in the flat riding their new bird / fella all the time etc etc and then fail the year.
A lot could be to do with not being suited to the course. We had to sign in every lecture and submit assignments or our grant was cut. Similar logic could be used to fairly enforce some policy like above rather than punish people for not being up to the course (which is more the fault of an admission policy based purely on academic achievement not suitability to the course)


How about you try getting misdiagnosed as not having breast cancer because an overworked non-specialist used an elderly piece of junk best suited to life as an inconveniently large paperweight to make the diagnosis. That's happened too. My anecdote outdoes yours. No, wait, it doesn't. They're just anecdotes. How about we let someone who's actually looked at the figures and thought about how to optimally allocate the limited funding do their jobs. They can't, be cause this kind of attitude prevails all over the country:
How about they put the centre's of excellence in place, and then close existing services. The current policy, which is rightly oppossed, is to close existing services, with no plan and no time frame for the introduction of the new ones. I'd contend that much of the objections to centralisation of health services is down to lack of trust of delivery, based on past experience and a lack of proper proposal to implement them.

The post office thing is about the pay off between it being a public service or whether it's purely a business. Again, you can't tie it down to being purely about wanting it for the sake of wanting it - it does serve a social function in communities especially for the old. So the arguement is really about whether that is the function of a post office or is it a for profit business. It's clear the Government have a privatisation agenda, so it's the latter for them.

[gustavo]

Although a bit off topic I agree. I think current rule is you pay for the repeated year?

Thats it , i failed first year many moons ago due to reasons stated above and I had to pay the repeat fees

[John83]

A lot could be to do with not being suited to the course. We had to sign in every lecture and submit assignments or our grant was cut. Similar logic could be used to fairly enforce some policy like above rather than punish people for not being up to the course (which is more the fault of an admission policy based purely on academic achievement not suitability to the course)
I've known a number of people who did half a year or a so of a course, decided it wasn't for them and signed up for a new course. They're no burden on the system, as they had to pay fees for the first year of their new course anyway. I do see where the suggestion is coming from.


How about they put the centre's of excellence in place, and then close existing services. The current policy, which is rightly oppossed, is to close existing services, with no plan and no time frame for the introduction of the new ones. I'd contend that much of the objections to centralisation of health services is down to lack of trust of delivery, based on past experience and a lack of proper proposal to implement them.
Thank you. That's the first time I've ever heard someone argue rationally about that. It's a perfectly valid concern.


The post office thing is about the pay off between it being a public service or whether it's purely a business. Again, you can't tie it down to being purely about wanting it for the sake of wanting it - it does serve a social function in communities especially for the old. So the arguement is really about whether that is the function of a post office or is it a for profit business. It's clear the Government have a privatisation agenda, so it's the latter for them.
I agree that a semi-state like An Post shouldn't value the bottom line over providing an adequate service, but I'm don't see how rural post offices have that important a social role.

[Macy]

I agree that a semi-state like An Post shouldn't value the bottom line over providing an adequate service, but I'm don't see how rural post offices have that important a social role.
They probably don't for you and I. They might do for an OAP, who doesn't get the internet, or even modern banking systems like cash machines, who simply wants to go to the post office and collect their pensions, send a letter, pay a bill etc. It's like the push for letter boxes at the end of the drive rather than the postie driving up to the house - fine for us who are probably out at work, not so hot from the OAP who's only contact with another human being all day was the postie dropping in the mail and passing the time of day. Things like that shouldn't be underestimated imo.

Personally even for the relatively young and mobile, I think the local Post Office is one of those you only miss when it's gone.

[Bluebeard]

I grew up quite rurally, and the post office was not simply a post office. It was the local shop too, and the newsagent. The back of beyond I come from saw it as number two only to the Church as a place where many of all ages could congregate and meet. For those who knew it for that all their lives, for those who had chosen to stay rural and not move to the urban settlements, this was the nexus of local life. It had purpose that made it's existence more valid than simply being a shop would have made it. Indeed, many people would go to the post office at regular times, for dole collection etc.

From my travels, I am unaware of there being any rural post-office that did not contain the shop element: indeed the more rural you get the more commonly you find that the only local shop is the post office. Without the post office, the fear is that shop would die, and similarly, without the post office, you rely on the church to meet people.

I think that the problem is as much as anything about infrastructure. The cities and towns were poorly facilitated with social outlets (still are in my opinion), so what chance did the rural enclaves have?

[kingdom hoop]

I don't really agree with you John to be honest. I feel that looking at the issue in demand terms (like the post office comparison) and saying the idea might denigrate the university tag is too simple (and perhaps a little haughty!) a way of looking at things.

I haven't read anything on this so I haven't formed concrete argument/opinion, but I just feel that you wouldn't know, there could be incalculable benefits from it. A bit chicken/egg maybe in that the, if nothing else psychologically substantial, morphing might spark a badly needed interest in higher education in an area that has traditionally not been so inclined - as historically there was more of an emphasis on primary and secondary industries (as against Kerry say, for example). So with changing landscapes this might be just the elixir to infuse the region with some higher-education energy.

At any rate, I can't understand why you'd argue against something as important as educational advancement! :)

[osarusan]

At any rate, I can't understand why you'd argue against something as important as educational advancement! :)

I think his point is that having more universities will mean that funding will be spread out more thinly between universities, thus reducing the standard of education that those universities are able to provide. And without proper funding, I'd agree that this could happen.

I still feel, however, that there do need to be more centres of education in places other than Dublin. It might do something to stop Dublin's population increasing so quickly, and help population issues in more rural areas.

[kingdom hoop]

I think his point is that having more universities will mean that funding will be spread out more thinly between universities, thus reducing the standard of education that those universities are able to provide. And without proper funding, I'd agree that this could happen.


So his point then is that upon the condition that funding for other institutes isn't unduly diminished that WIT can become WU (WIT-WU, sounds attractive :D)? Is that your point John83, or were you just blowing off steam about Irish parochialism? :)

Can this not signal the requisite increased commitment from the state to funding education? Or is that too idealistic?

[GavinZac]

So his point then is that upon the condition that funding for other institutes isn't unduly diminished that WIT can become WU (WIT-WU, sounds attractive :D)? Is that your point John83, or were you just blowing off steam about Irish parochialism? :)

Can this not signal the requisite increased commitment from the state to funding education? Or is that too idealistic?

UCC is just down the road. Why not increase funding to both UCC and WIT without the mé féin-ism of complaining about the title?

[John83]

...It's like the push for letter boxes at the end of the drive rather than the postie driving up to the house - fine for us who are probably out at work, not so hot from the OAP who's only contact with another human being all day was the postie dropping in the mail and passing the time of day. Things like that shouldn't be underestimated imo...
As much as that is true, it says more about our failure, both socially and via government intervention, to do enough for the elderly. If the postman is a vital part of many pensioners' social lives, we've failed them badly. I suppose the point raised before about closing regional services before they're replaced is valid here too.


...I am unaware of there being any rural post-office that did not contain the shop element: indeed the more rural you get the more commonly you find that the only local shop is the post office. Without the post office, the fear is that shop would die, and similarly, without the post office, you rely on the church to meet people.
I wonder, how tiny must a community be for it not to be capable of supporting a shop?

Another question is what does it cost An Post to maintain such a shop/PO hybrid? If the operator was merely taking a percentage, surely it's of no benefit to close it? Is it a fixed fee paid to the operator? That might be too much for a very low volume PO. Or is it that An Post owns the whole operation, and is running it at a loss?


I think that the problem is as much as anything about infrastructure. The cities and towns were poorly facilitated with social outlets (still are in my opinion), so what chance did the rural enclaves have?
This.

It's a community problem as much as a government one. I don't like leaning on An Post to put a bandage over it either.


...At any rate, I can't understand why you'd argue against something as important as educational advancement! :)
I think most of the points you raised are valid, but disagree with the effectiveness of the solution. osarusan explains a major concern also.

On the point I've quoted, retooling an IT as a university isn't educational advancement. If there are enough good students to benefit from the extra university places, then yes, otherwise you're just lowering the standard of university graduate. That means our degrees are seen as worth less abroad, and that hurts us more than it helps.


I think his point is that having more universities will mean that funding will be spread out more thinly between universities, thus reducing the standard of education that those universities are able to provide. And without proper funding, I'd agree that this could happen.
Yes, that's a very significant factor, I believe.


I still feel, however, that there do need to be more centres of education in places other than Dublin. It might do something to stop Dublin's population increasing so quickly, and help population issues in more rural areas.
The way to bring population to an area is to bring jobs to the area. If you educate the locals, but there are no jobs, they'll just move to Dublin.


So his point then is that upon the condition that funding for other institutes isn't unduly diminished that WIT can become WU (WIT-WU, sounds attractive :D)? Is that your point John83, or were you just blowing off steam about Irish parochialism? :)
Hell yes, I was blowing off steam! On funding issue, yes it would need to be resolved, but there also needs to be enough students of adequate quality, as I discussed above. This is about funding and standards in primary and particularly secondary education. Did you know they're removing calculus from the Leaving Cert higher maths syllabus? Calculus! I pity the maths, science and engineering lecturers who'll have to pick up the pieces after that.


Can this not signal the requisite increased commitment from the state to funding education? Or is that too idealistic?
State funding has decreased substantially in real terms over the last ten years. While the government has put a lot of money into so-called '4th level' research, it's seriously neglecting the undergraduates.

[Bluebeard]

It may surprise you, John, but I largely agree with most of what you are saying. I personally believe that the concept of the University is ultimately dead in the way that Latin is, and that most Universities in Britain and Ireland are becoming more like ITs or Polys, as that is where the market is driving them, regardless of nomenclature. As many have said, I much would rather WIT expanded and diversified, became a Uni in all but name, and the funding was increased, rather than the reverse.

Unfortunately, from my years involved in the third level field, there is huge snobbery about titles. Ironically, I used almost always choose to hire someone with a relevant PLC than a degree or diploma holder in my field, as it the others tend to be weaker on the practical basics - my own degrees are sheets of paper that opened doors rather than taught me how to do what I do. This is rather unfortunate in my opinion, as is the attitude that if you want to do something for a living, an apprenticeship is sneered at by some, another by-product of the university snobbery. Of course you also have the problem of inverted snobbery, especially in places where there is no culture of University attendance where you get accused of being a waster / sponger / having notions for attending, at that too must be addressed.

Back to the local post office;)

I also agree with you that the old folk of this country have been very poorly served. For all the talk of free travel on public transport, it can only really apply when there is some nearby and accessible. I personally deplored the nature of the Post Office goissipy chatter - it used wreck my head queuing for sweets or a stamp for my mother, but, no that I do not have to listen to it any more, I see why it was so intense.

It is also important to note what is important is not the size of population, but the location. An area the size of Tallaght exist with a very small population in certain parts of the country, parts exist where it is not unusual to have lengthy waits for fire engines or ambulances, and they appear to be growing as the mass migration from the land to the cities increases. Owing to years of governmental policy on both sides of the house, these are places where if you do not have a car, you suffer an incredible amount of discrimination. Some areas have got up off their arses and met closures with organised community buses, but surely that is part of what the LDCs' and Co. Councils' jobs are meant to be?

I cannot tell you which way around it was with the local post offices - I presume that in my day they were essentially franchises, where the Post Office was set up, someone agreed to take it over and ran a shop on the side, as a way of making ends meet and presumably to capitalise on the steady stream of incoming people. One may think that there is small loss when the post office closes, but in some places the shop will invariably follow. Then, the people who can, will drift towards the town or nearest big village for their stamps and food, and the church (which will run the local school), will once more become the only place where some communities get to meet up.

The fact remains that, owing to a general laissez-faire policy regarding the development of rural Ireland, facilities do not exist, and the post office has become the secular centre of many Irish communities, rightly or wrongly. I don't think it should be An Post's problem - they didn't set up post offices for that purpose, and you can imagine how annoying it is when Peg has to count out the pennies for her Irish Indo while you are waiting to buy a stamp before running into school. However, something should be done to provide for community, and especially those who chose many years ago to stay in the rural parts of the country.

[reder]

In the meantime, CIT and DIT are considerring similar applications apparently.

UCC and Trinity/DCU/UCD provide more than sufficient university facilities for Cork and Dublin. CIT and DIT applications should be revoked. All in all, I think there are enough universities in the republic.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the criteria is for university status?

[superfrank]

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the criteria is for university status?
No. But I have heard that DIT more than qualify.

[Bald Student]

The answer depends on what question you ask;

Does the South East deserve a university?
Does the country need another university?

[John83]

It may surprise you, John, but I largely agree with most of what you are saying.
Not in the slightest. A number of people have contributed insights here which have made this thread informative and interesting. I rarely get to say this, but it's been a pleasure discussing this with you all.

[SligoBrewer]

The answer depends on what question you ask;

Does the South East deserve a university?
Does the country need another university?

Could we strip a smaller University of their status and give the money instead to fund a Waterford university?

Is their any need for DCU or Maynooth to have University status?

[Bald Student]

Could we strip a smaller University of their status and give the money instead to fund a Waterford university?

Is their any need for DCU or Maynooth to have University status?I don't think money is the main issue. There's a limited supply of students out there and the numbers are dropping. As it is, I think too many people go to university when they'd probably be better off working or getting a more practical education. I think it's particularly true here in UCD. Because of the part of the city we're in, most families simply expect their children to go to university. You particularly see them studying arts, they drift into it because it lets them put off making a decision about what to specialise in for another year.

WIT lobbying to become a university based on the argument that universities are better than ITs adds to the problem. There's nothing wrong with studying in a more practical way, it suits a lot of people.

In my mind, the root of the issue is a type of snobbery, that Universities are better than ITs and that the students in them are better than students in ITs or other colleges.

[SligoBrewer]

I think too many people go to university when they'd probably be better off working or getting a more practical education. I think it's particularly true here in UCD. Because of the part of the city we're in, most families simply expect their children to go to university. You particularly see them studying arts, they drift into it because it lets them put off making a decision about what to specialise in for another year.



That's what I'm saying. I'm only 17 and still in school but when I went to see DCU on an open day the place felt very like an IT and not a university. Most of the people there didn't seem like they wanted to be in a university. I can't see why we fund universities when there is, in my opinion, no need for so many of them. Especially when they are all concentrated in nearly the one city.

I don't know the specifics of Waterford's claim to be a university, but I honestly can't see the difference myself from what DCU wanted to offer me to go there, to what Sligo IT offers.

I think we should strip the smaller universities of their status as there are too many. There should be a noticeable difference between what an institute of technology and what a university offers to a 3rd level student.

[Bluebeard]

That's what I'm saying. I'm only 17 and still in school but when I went to see DCU on an open day the place felt very like an IT and not a university. Most of the people there didn't seem like they wanted to be in a university. I can't see why we fund universities when there is, in my opinion, no need for so many of them. Especially when they are all concentrated in nearly the one city.

I don't know the specifics of Waterford's claim to be a university, but I honestly can't see the difference myself from what DCU wanted to offer me to go there, to what Sligo IT offers.

I think we should strip the smaller universities of their status as there are too many. There should be a noticeable difference between what an institute of technology and what a university offers to a 3rd level student.

This is the problem - as an National Institute of Higher Education (NIHE), like what became UL, if fulfilled a very specific role and there was no problem with this. The the demands came for a Uni in this area and that area, something more than just a Regional Technical College (RTC). So they bumped them up in the late 80s, without a real plan to develop it into a uni, rather to appease a large and influential voting block.

Then the RTCs one by one complained that they didn't like the title. So in the late 1990s, one by one, they became ITs. Now some of these want to be universities.

I happen to have a degree validated by DCU and have worked with, in and around the place, as well as living nearby for a number of years, and in all reality, it is in many ways Glasnevin IT. Which is fine - it serves a purpose. But it is not really all that much of a university for the most part. No disrespect to students there, but it isn't. And to be honest, many courses in the "established universities" have become in many ways less like you would expect from a uni and more what you would expect from an IT. This is nothing to do with quality, it is more to do with the nature of the content and delivery.


Not in the slightest. A number of people have contributed insights here which have made this thread informative and interesting. I rarely get to say this, but it's been a pleasure discussing this with you all.

A thread here where people are talking passionately, yet level headedly, with efforts to provide facts to defend arguments, nobody dissing ANYBODY, people agreeing.

That has surely got to be the breaking of at least two seals on the Old Christian Scale!

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well the concept of a NIHE makes sense as it essentially an IT style of learning with some courses, most notably humanities and law, that aren't typically found in an IT also present. Note I said typically, I know all ITs have them to some extent but they play a far greater role in the two former NIHEs.

Granting them a status that was neither IT/RTC nor university made sense as they fit in a gap in between the two when it came to style. Unfortunately politics and socio-economic perceptions have got in the way and as a result the concept of not being a university meant these institutions were wrongly seen as something lesser and unworthy.

Also we've focussed a lot of students here but academics are another key point to keep in mind. The further we dilute the university academic pool, the harder it gets for Ireland to attract the best academics. A more focussed approach breeds health competition, which leads to higher standards, which in turn attracts the best people.

That said I think one of the reasons DCU and UL have continued to be successful in attracting the right academics to meet their needs is that they have continued to seek the type of people they sought whilst they were called NIHEs. That practical, I would almost go as far as to say aggressive, approach to learning is what aids them in getting the people they want.

[kingdom hoop]

Some very good, valid opinions above. Although this one, not so much;


UCC is just down the road. Why not increase funding to both UCC and WIT without the mé féin-ism of complaining about the title?

Hardly just down the road to be fair! Maybe from west Waterford you might commute, but from the rest of Waterford, and particularly Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford there's no way a dedicated student (or a committed environmentalist) could spend so many hours a day travelling to and fro. Fair play, by the way, on ignoring the thread's important points and creating your own little arguments. ;)...... :) Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers.

As it happens, Geraldine addressed the issue in her editorial today, and gave the idea her reserved support. A few quotes: "(it's got a lot of support) But the Government is wary: both the Taoiseach and Ms Hanafin have insisted that Waterford's application must be considered in the context of what is best for the third-level sector as a whole." "The south-east has a strong case. It is the only major region without a university and the one with the lowest disposable income per capita. A university would act as a catalyst for growth and regeneration. It would boost the region from an economic, social and cultural perspective. And WIT itself has the academic range and the appropriate governance and strategic capability required for a university."

"He (Dr. Port, the author of government-commissioned feasibility analysis) says a university for Waterford could trigger a range of applications from other institutes and undermine the jobs and careers focus of the institute of technology (IoT) sector." "Port refers to the finding of the 2004 OECD report on the third-level sector which stated inter alia that the State had enough universities and argued for the preservation of the current university/IoT mix. The Cabinet must be cognisant of this issue in making its decision."

"Waterford has a persuasive case that has been eloquently and convincingly advanced over an extended period. It deserves to be successful on its own merits. And it should be possible to ring fence a decision in its favour to ensure the role of the wider IoT sector is not compromised."



(by the by, just watched the provided video there.... many :D at the "shur what else would you be doing on a Wednesday only coming up to Dublin" comment from Michael Walsh.)

[blackholesun]

Thats it , i failed first year many moons ago due to reasons stated above and I had to pay the repeat fees

If you pay to repeat then at the end of your two years in first year, you've paid for one year and the gov have paid for one year.

But if you have to payback the fees for the failed first year and then redid first year free, it would work out the same one year each.

But the big diff is people who drop out or fail and dont repeat, this way all that wasted money could be clawed back and put into the postgrad sector where it is badly needed if we want to build a knowledge based economy!

bhs

[GavinZac]

Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers. Normally I'd be bothered to make some sort of witty retort, but, well, **** you.

[Ceirtlis]

The OECD done a report on this a couple of years ago and said that there were enough universities in the republic of ireland. I think the thing the government is afraid of is that if waterford get status then Cit,Gmit and others will claim they are as good as WIT and therefore should be universities. This is what happened when waterford was the first to be awarded the title of IT.
I recently graduated from the WIT and I dont know that the place is university standard to be honest. They are very weak on the administrative side and also there is a bit of resistance amongst some of the people working there because they know that uni status means less holidays and would change their jobs.
I have to say im glad i went there all the same. In a university i would have been in a lecture hall with 300 others and would have got to know no one but every year there was around 50 in my class and i got to know most of them. The alumni are holding a march for this sometime soon. For purely selfish reasons it would make my degree look better if it got upgraded to a university.

[pete]

Good debate on the radio today. In the US Technology is not a dirty word (e.g. MIT) but just means college specialises in different things. We have enough Universities offering humanities so WIT would be better off trying to exceed as the best IT in the country offering more quality degrees. Universities can be slow to change due to history but relatively new ITs often have a clean slate.

My impression is that if you offer accreditation too easy you dilute the status this entails. There needs to be criteria that validates a University or an Institute of Technology. Upgrading all Regional Technical Colleges to Institutes overnight seems to have already devalued the best ones. Apparently when the UK upgraded all the Polytechs to Universities they devalued the worldwide status of existing Universities.

[OneRedArmy]

Good debate on the radio today. In the US Technology is not a dirty word (e.g. MIT) but just means college specialises in different things. We have enough Universities offering humanities so WIT would be better off trying to exceed as the best IT in the country offering more quality degrees. Universities can be slow to change due to history but relatively new ITs often have a clean slate.

My impression is that if you offer accreditation too easy you dilute the status this entails. There needs to be criteria that validates a University or an Institute of Technology. Upgrading all Regional Technical Colleges to Institutes overnight seems to have already devalued the best ones. Apparently when the UK upgraded all the Polytechs to Universities they devalued the worldwide status of existing Universities.Pete I kind of agree (in that WIT and the other ITs should focus on a specialism rather than broaden) but ITs in the US are universities, which allows them much greater access to research grants, tenured staff and the other benefits of university status.

The upgrading of polys to unis in the UK was an unmitigated disaster and just created another tier of universities with no real benefit to students other that letters after their name.

[oldyouth]

;

Hardly just down the road to be fair! Maybe from west Waterford you might commute, but from the rest of Waterford, and particularly Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford there's no way a dedicated student (or a committed environmentalist) could spend so many hours a day travelling to and fro. Fair play, by the way, on ignoring the thread's important points and creating your own little arguments. ;)...... :) Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers.

"The south-east has a strong case. It is the only major region without a university and the one with the lowest disposable income per capita. A university would act as a catalyst for growth and regeneration. It would boost the region from an economic, social and cultural perspective. And WIT itself has the academic range and the appropriate governance and strategic capability required for a university."

Excellent post

[pete]

Still don't see what renaming WIT as WU would achieve. Staff would strike as no long summer holidays.

[Macy]

Staff would strike as no long summer holidays.
Bored pete?

[rambler14]

All the IT'S can become is Technological University's. So the like of CIT, DIT AND WIT will all become CTU, DTU AND WTU. No real difference.
The only problem I can see is that the Leaving Cert standards will go up. If you need 300points to get in 2008, it could easily mean that in 2009 you'll need 320 or 350. College numbers will drop and there'll be a shortage of Engineers, Accountants, etc........

[pete]

Bored pete?

More of a reflex ;)

Seriously though I think there would be problems. I know University staff only work nominally in the summer (ever tried to find University staff in the summer months?) but afaik Institute of technology staff have secondary school type holidays. I have relatives in both a University & IT.

[Macy]

More of a reflex ;)

Seriously though I think there would be problems. I know University staff only work nominally in the summer (ever tried to find University staff in the summer months?) but afaik Institute of technology staff have secondary school type holidays. I have relatives in both a University & IT.
I wouldn't have thought there was that much difference, and if there was it'd be something that'd have to be negtiated. I don't think there's too much clamour from people to move from Universities to IT's because of the difference in working conditions tbh.

[John83]

The only problem I can see is that the Leaving Cert standards will go up. If you need 300points to get in 2008, it could easily mean that in 2009 you'll need 320 or 350. College numbers will drop and there'll be a shortage of Engineers, Accountants, etc........
What? You are aware that the CAO works on supply and demand? Where are all these extra students coming from?

[pete]

I don't think there's too much clamour from people to move from Universities to IT's because of the difference in working conditions tbh.

True, I would assume wages higher at Universities simply by the fact that certain high level positions do not exist in ITs.

[SÓC]

True, I would assume wages higher at Universities simply by the fact that certain high level positions do not exist in ITs.

Lecturers starting out at least earn a good deal more in Universities than ITs

I actually think Waterford does deserve Uni status but only Waterford. Not DIT, not CIT or any of the others. Draw a line in the sand and say no more.

I'd say that for geographical reasons as much as any other reason. Funding and development of other courses etc should be provided over time. The Government is committed to the idea of 4th level Ireland and securing international investment on that basis, they realise that funding will have to be provided for this

[OneRedArmy]

I can't help but think the vast majority of this thread misses the whole point about what differentiates a university and an IT and has got bogged down in pariochial politics/industrial relations discussions.

Until someone can demonstrate that WIT being granted university status will be a zero sum gain vis a vis the existing Irish universities it "should" be a non-runner (pork barrel politics means that such rationale analysis is frequently ignored).