Indo Article on Schooligans

[Mr A]

Good piece in the Indo today:


'Schooligans' pose major threat to AIL
Derry City's Peter Hutton and Linfield?s William Murphy clash as tempers frayed during their recent Setanta Cup tie at Windsor Park. However, tension off the pitch may pose a major headache for any organisers of an All Ireland League


Wednesday March 19 2008

NEVER mind the politics, the egos, the power struggles and pure and simple logistics. When discussing the obstacles facing the prospect of a merged All-Ireland League, a very significant, and depressing, hurdle could prove to be pockets of disaffected teenagers.

Last Monday night, following the drawn Setanta Sports Cup game between St Patrick's Athletic and Glentoran in Inchicore, a congregation of local youths waited outside the ground when the game concluded and tried to attack visiting supporters.

The Gardai moved in to handle the trouble instigated by youthful troublemakers, many of whom weren't at the game in the first place. Within minutes, phones were hopping as national newspaper desks heard of the hail of sirens and sniffed a story.

Scraps outside League of Ireland games are one thing, but throw in a sectarian element and then it's a different kettle of fish altogether. Presumably, the same highly developed specimens will be out in force next month when the even greater 'enemy' from Belfast in the form of Linfield comes to Richmond Park. Any more trouble will dampen enthusiasm to make such visits more frequent.

Of course, the reality is that the kids in question would be just as likely to attack Donegal Celtic fans as they would followers of Linfield. We are not dealing with political heavyweights here; merely pumped up pubescents who prowl Bebo by day and bus stops by night.

Full Story HERE (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/eircom-league/schooligans-pose-major-threat-to-ail-1321207.html)

[jebus]

Not as sensationalist as I would have thought from the Indo to be honest. I'll take it that the story regarding the Shels fan who lost an eye due to the BSS is fact now though?

Policing around the affected grounds, and adequate safety for away fans is the only way to dela with it though. Obviously there are a lot of games in the league that wouldn't require heavy security, and some clubs have attracted more of this schooligan element than others. I know Limerick fans are well behaved when it comes to nonsense like this, especially in recent times (in my years of going up, only the second visit of Shamrock Rovers a few years back brought out that type of 'fan'), and even games against Cobh and Dundalk, places where if there were to be trouble involving Limerick fans I'd expect it to be there, have passed off without incident. I'm not saying this exlusively a Dublin problem (I hear Cork have a few schooligans going up), but it does seem that the majority of incidents involved Dublin based clubs, so if the Gardai are looking to put extra gaurds on duty at LoI games, then they should really concentrate their efforts around the capital

[ForzaHoop]

To most of these kids it is a chance to get one over on another area and prove there area is the hardest. The jump on the bandwagon Soccer Hooligan thing which they want to exist from watching green street etc

Not sure about you but when i was a Teen i just wanted to get LAID and get away with being drunk

[Keen2win]

Not sure about you but when i was a Teen i just wanted to get LAID and get away with being drunk

What more would we expect from a Rovers fan?

[jebus]

To most of these kids it is a chance to get one over on another area and prove there area is the hardest. The jump on the bandwagon Soccer Hooligan thing which they want to exist from watching green street etc

Doesn't this sort of thing happen quite a bit with rival teen gangs in England? London in particular? Seems like they are just copying their English Bebo counterparts, who in turn seem to think they were brought up in Compton

[Higgo]

Not sure about you but when i was a Teen i just wanted to get LAID and get away with being drunk

Eh no, I'd be lying if I said I could identify at all with this mentality. Terrible post.

[pete]

Can't argue about the article. The kids Bohs/Shels would find some other excuse to fight if no LOI but that doesn't help the league. Its amazing that the authorities can't control children. Imagine if there were proper "firms" in the LOI with hundreds of members?

[Higgo]

Can't argue about the article. The kids Bohs/Shels would find some other excuse to fight if no LOI but that doesn't help the league. Its amazing that the authorities can't control children. Imagine if there were proper "firms" in the LOI with hundreds of members?

I have to agree with this point. There are many people who could legitimately take some blame for this problem. However, it is shocking that our police force cannot handle these incidents. At the end of the day, there are relatively few people involved and the majority of them are only children. I fail to see how we could ever host a big European cup match in Dublin. It is beyond a joke how incompetent some of our gardai are. Very sad indeed.

[Raheny Red]

Not as sensationalist as I would have thought from the Indo to be honest. I'll take it that the story regarding the Shels fan who lost an eye due to the BSS is fact now though?



No, not necessarily, the Indo Journo got that info from the front page of yesterday's sun - which contained a number of mistakes. The lad who wrote the piece in the Sun got his info from the Shels and Bohs forum, pathetically.

[jebus]

No, not necessarily, the Indo Journo got that info from the front page of yesterday's sun - which contained a number of mistakes. The lad who wrote the piece in the Sun got his info from the Shels and Bohs forum, pathetically.

Was wondering about that part alright, just because I haven't heard it reported as fact yet. Pretty lame out of the bastion of Irish journalism to be getting their stories from football forums filtered through the Sun

[WoodquayBoy]

Pure laziness, all it would take is a phone call to hospitals in the area, or even just one to the HSE

[Raheny Red]

Was wondering about that part alright, just because I haven't heard it reported as fact yet. Pretty lame out of the bastion of Irish journalism to be getting their stories from football forums filtered through the Sun


However, as far as I know, he did sustain an eye injury. He can't see out of the lower half of his eye I was told.

[gufct]

Every club in the league has an element of Schooligans attaching themselves to the clubs.The worst I have seen are Bohs,Shels,Athlone,Pats and Dundalk where kids as young as ten are up for anything and all idolise green street with a passion.

We had four braindeads trying to start a row with 2 young lads from Galway down in Cobh last week and we have a certain element both boys and girls at our home games who dont even bother watching the games anymore.

[feo123]

will the schoolies be in sligo on friday night do ye reckon?

[Rob_the_cat]

This is a societal problem. Nothing to do with hooligan-porn like Green Street. Kids today (I feel old saying that) have no respect for authority. They have no respect for others, they don't value human life. Jeez, you only have to look back at the horrific killings in Drimnagh a few weeks ago. Then what, another story comes along in the cycle and it's all dropped.

Just today I heard about Mayo supporters throwing coins at Kieran Donaghy and his Kerry teammates. This isn't a soccer exclusive issue.

I would be surprised if Dan had not sourced this elsewhere than from "The ***" though. He's the best young sports journo around at the moment.

[Bucky-O'Hare]

Its probably a mixture of bad parenting, the youtube/greenstreet cult following, and a society that simply allows people, both children and adults to get away with too much with no consequence.

We live in a part of the world were its becoming more and more normal to see someone get kicked in the head or have a glass pushed into their face. Thus to these young boys this behaviour is seen as acceptable.

[pixiehead]

I Think its no harm that we the right fans give them a good shoe in the arse or a slap in the puss. its the only way spotty teens wallys will listen too

[Kingdom]

I'm only in the mid 20's and while I wouldn't be a snob, there is a distinct lack of any decency or respect amongst the kids these days. And the type we are referring to they ain't kids anymore either, they get older and braver younger these days.
Young wans have changed for the worst too. Its getting more ridiculous what they're going round in, and sorry leerer's I'm not referring to 17/18/19 yr olds, I'm on about the tweenies. Jailbait in my group used to be a joke about eligble but young looking girls you'd be shifting (insert your own slang here!) but now it has a genuine meaning.
I blame the parents a lot of the time and I'm saying that as a parent myself.
All joking aside as Forza hoop said when I was in my teens (less than 10 yrs ago) I wanted a lay and a drink. any aggression was used playing football or other sports.
There's no honour amongst people these days. I see this all day everyday. Remember its what we do ourselves that the kids take the lead from.
How often do you stop and help someone lift a bag on the bus/train? Or hold a door for someone? Or even acknowledge a stranger passing by? I do and its the way I was brought up. I can see it in the older women when they're walking down the road, they sh!t themselves pasing by kids nowadays.
As ridiculous as this sounds the fall of the church has a lot to do with it. That generation had a lot of different values to this generation.

[RonnieB]

I love some of the names they give themselves. The Dundalk Mujahideen are on the march to Longford tomorrow night :)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry with despair for humanity.

[sullanefc]

As ridiculous as this sounds the fall of the church has a lot to do with it.

You could be on to something there. While I wouldn't be a religious person myself, certain morals and values have been lost in our society. Whether its the fall of the church or bad parenting or a bit of both I'm not sure.

[RonnieB]

Bad parenting in my opinion. I was fortunate to have great parents who devoted their time to raising both me and my brother in a good decent environment. A lot of these kids you just have to look at their folks to see where they get it from. There are as always exceptions to this but not many in my experiences over the years.

[sligoman]

Bad parenting in my opinion.That and the company kids keep. Good kids can change completely by the people they hang around with.

[Kingdom]

That and the company kids keep. Good kids can change completely by the people they hang around with.

And who allows them to keep said company? The rents? I don't entertain any arguments by parents of what can I do this and what can I do that. Its all about will power.

[LeixlipRed]

Bad parenting, poor education, lack of youth facilities,etc,etc. All these are the causes, what's the cure? Sure isn't hitting them a slap or locking them up for a few years as some have suggested. That typifies the short term outlook people have on issues like this. It takes decades to eradicate social problems like this. There's no quick fix

[Kingdom]

Bad parenting, poor education, lack of youth facilities,etc,etc. All these are the causes, what's the cure? Sure isn't hitting them a slap or locking them up for a few years as some have suggested. That typifies the short term outlook people have on issues like this. It takes decades to eradicate social problems like this. There's no quick fix

i agree with bits and disagree with others.

I disagree with hitting a child. It sends out the wrong vibes to the kid. I, like many of you I'm sure, was hit as a child. Its only now having spoken to others (peers) that I realise that I was beaten, as opposed to hit/disciplined. As a result there is an anger/rage in me that is dangerous and takes a lot of effort to control. I'm determined not to foster something like that in my young lad, or any other kids for that matter.
I don't agree that there is a lack of facilities, if anything there are more now than there ever was. Too many people have excuses for the social ills today. No facilites? Makes me laugh. there is a football Gaa Rugby Pool Gym Youth centre and fishing clubs in the town I live in. Parents can't afford them. Of these parents who can't afford it in my cul-de-sac, they drive big cars and are absolute dipsos of the highest order. There is more money generally in society today than when I was growing up. The foreign holiday was a luxury that 1 family on my road had, as was the label clothes. How many of the schooligans wear Strider runners I wonder? How many of the schooligans parents are down the boozer blissfully unaware of what johnny is doing on a Fri night?
Its down to the parents 100%

[LeixlipRed]

And how many gangs of schooligans are there in your area??

[Kingdom]

And how many gangs of schooligans are there in your area??

There's no eL club in my area but there is a sizeable amount of scum to be fair.

[John83]

You could be on to something there. While I wouldn't be a religious person myself, certain morals and values have been lost in our society. Whether its the fall of the church or bad parenting or a bit of both I'm not sure.
The church has no monopoly on morality.

[pete]

Parents have the ultimate responsibility. Too easy to blame every one else. In the Drimnagh murder the parents should be tried as accessories or similar. If your dog attacked someone you would be prosecuted for failing to keep under control. I am not equating kids to dogs but you get the logic...

[Kingdom]

I am not equating kids to dogs but you get the logic...

You would in some cases.

[jebus]

Parents have the ultimate responsibility. Too easy to blame every one else. In the Drimnagh murder the parents should be tried as accessories or similar.

Two things I'd like to see done is for parents to be held responsible for minor's actions, and the age in which a kid can be prosecuted lowered. If say a 14 year old throws a bottle and injuries another kid at a football match, then I'd want the child charged and his parents given a warning on his behaviour. If the parent does little to curb their child's ways then they start getting hit with fines and eventually a short stay in prison, if the parent is seen as trying to help turn their child into a decent human being then they get time to do this

[oldyouth]

The church has no monopoly on morality.

The church.....morality. Don't see them in the same sentence myself.

Parents responsibility, end of!

[Wangball]

These kind of scumbags are nothing like dogs, I'd feel bad about kicking a dog

[WoodquayBoy]

Yeah, they are more like cats. I mean, who doesn't take pleasure from landing a size 10 in one of them?

[eirebhoy]

Bad parenting in my opinion.
We're going a little off topic here for a football forum but I hate hearing that. When you come from the area I did you got up to scumbag things like fighting, robbing, drinking on streets, etc. Pretty much everyone did and I'm not exaggerating. There was plenty of decent parents but they'd have to lock up their kids to stop them doing what they do.

My mother was the person anyone in the neighbourhood went for advice. She had cooking and knitting classes in my daughters school. They sent my sisters all to private school and myself and my brother to a decent school in Ballsbridge. She went back to college not so long ago and was the top student in the class at 50 (she now has a great job). I was still a scumbag as a teenager and arrested about 15 times. She'd cry her eyes out when I was arrested while my father would be the typical old fashioned guy who wouldn't stand for it. In fact I would have been expelled from school if it wasn't for my parents. I've no problem saying that now because I've learnt that most of these teenage scumbags grow up to be genuinely decent people.

[Wangball]

To suggest that society is crumbling because we don't go to church anymore is quite possibly one of the most stupid things I've ever heard, I haven't been in a church (outside of funerals/weddings/christenings etc) in more than 13 years and I've never nearly blinded anyone with a bottle.

I agree with EB insofar as I come from an area that wouldn't be the best regarded & I went to school that has a reputation thats nothing short of notorious (more people in my yeard went on to prison for drug/gang things than went on to 3rd level education) the school & area was quite a broad mix of normal hard working successful folk & scum of the earth toerags & I can tell you that not all of the guys that went to jail were from the bad side of the area - each one was a victim of their own circumstances - some had bad parents, some didn't some may of went to church , some didn't (I'm pretty sure this didn't contribute though) fact is its impossible to apply blanket reasoning as to why people turn out the way they do - some of those schooligans may be from disadvantaged area's, some may have neglectful parents & some may be trainee sociopaths, they're all the products of their own individual circumstances rather than their being one big super reason for why these kids behave like savages (i.e. they don't go to confession anymore - how stupid a concept is that?)

[Kingdom]

To suggest that society is crumbling because we don't go to church anymore is quite possibly one of the most stupid things I've ever heard, I haven't been in a church (outside of funerals/weddings/christenings etc) in more than 13 years and I've never nearly blinded anyone with a bottle.

I agree with EB insofar as I come from an area that wouldn't be the best regarded & I went to school that has a reputation thats nothing short of notorious (more people in my yeard went on to prison for drug/gang things than went on to 3rd level education) the school & area was quite a broad mix of normal hard working successful folk & scum of the earth toerags & I can tell you that not all of the guys that went to jail were from the bad side of the area - each one was a victim of their own circumstances - some had bad parents, some didn't some may of went to church , some didn't (I'm pretty sure this didn't contribute though) fact is its impossible to apply blanket reasoning as to why people turn out the way they do - some of those schooligans may be from disadvantaged area's, some may have neglectful parents & some may be trainee sociopaths, they're all the products of their own individual circumstances rather than their being one big super reason for why these kids behave like savages (i.e. they don't go to confession anymore - how stupid a concept is that?)

Fantastic way to misquote someone. I never said that society is crumbling because we as a society don't go to church. You'll find we as a society still go to church in quite large numbers, but that the fear that the church had on people and on families in general isn't there anymore.
congratulations on seeing one thing and making a stupid assumption.

As for you Eirebhoy well done on turning it round. You wouldn't guess.

[jebus]

Fantastic way to misquote someone. I never said that society is crumbling because we as a society don't go to church. You'll find we as a society still go to church in quite large numbers, but that the fear that the church had on people and on families in general isn't there anymore.
congratulations on seeing one thing and making a stupid assumption.


To be honest isn't the drop off in the Church's fear factor a direct result of the drop of in numbers? So Wangball was pretty much saying the same thing. Anyway losing some of the fear the church instilled is not a bad thing, and the fact that the Catholic Church went with fear us rhetoric instead of love one another is probably the reason for that.

Anyone on the topic of the youth of today, I don't think you can blame a child initially going wrong on any one thing, I'm sure for every child that turned to violence coming from an abusive family there is a child that is sickened by violence who comes from an equally abusive family. Personally I came from a middle ground in Limerick City, pretty much literally, as there was three roads running parallel to each other, one is notorious now for gangs, one has nice Georgian houses and there's mine, stuck in the middle getting a mixture of all kinds. Now despite coming from a family with strong support from both my parents I could easily have turned one way into crime rather than the other, there's plenty of kids I used to play football with who were very similiar to me who ended up in jail, others have gone on to be quite successful in what they do, and in the end I think it comes down to personal choice, whether crime/violence is attractive to you or not. Parents don't really come into that equation until the decision is made.

Like I said earlier on though, when it becomes obvious that a teenager is going off the rails a bit, the parents should be informed and asked to do something about it. That's where the idea of parents who aren't even trying being given warnings by the Gardai comes into.

[dancinpants]

In defence of parents: How do you discipline a kid that literally doesn't give a **** about authority? A kid that just doesn't give a **** anymore. Where PEER pressure is stronger than PARENTAL pressure.

In argument against parents: I think alot of them leave the attempts at discipline until its too late.

[Magicme]

They dont give a **** about authority because they were never shown any. I am heading into the hardest years of my life now with a 13yr old son and a 10 yr old hot on his heels but I am fairly confident that because, from the moment they were born, I have been the authority and they have to respect that.

I have only to give my kids a certain look or say their name in a certain manner and they will behave. I have never hit my kids and dont believe in it but they have been shown clear boundaries since they were tiny and now understand if they step outside those limits they will not like the consequences.

Respect is taught from tiny baby up and if parents cant be bothered to do that then they shouldnt have kids. My sons know that if either of them ever got into trouble they will lose all priveleges. PS3, football camps, sky tv, internet access etc are all priveleges not rights and they know it.

As for living in a bad area with kids, I loved my kids enough to give up the best job I ever had, the best social life I ever had and move back to Monaghan to bring them up where I know they are safer and less likely to fall in with a "bad" crowd. My eldest goes to non-alcoholic discos but only if I drive him there and collect him.

I am scared stiff of the next 8 years but I am totally committed to bringing us all through them and any parent that isnt should be ashamed of themselves.

[Finlay Harp]

Society in general is falling down in a big way. Probably not helped by the government/EU by making all these civil rights laws. I know they are there to help people but more often than not the victim is usually the looser. Take for example if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night. You wake up to be greeted by a thug coming up your stairs and you hit him a punch in the mouth and he falls downstairs. Next thing you know the Guards arrive and you are lifted for assaulting the poor chap that was there to steal your car and do God knows what to your family! Same with the kids at the games. They know every right they have and if anyone touches them or even says something out of turn they are away to the authorities and you are at fault. I once heard a gang of girls that were wrecking a middle aged guys fence that if he came near them they would tell the police he abused them. Thats just wrong. Unfortunately we live in an era where there is no fear of authority. In fact let me rephrase that. Decent people fear the authorities but those that are causing the trouble dont. If that cant be sorted out I dont know what way the world is going to go!

[Only1Rovers]

Daniel McDonald on Newstalk talking about this now....

[onceahoop]

They dont give a **** about authority because they were never shown any. I am heading into the hardest years of my life now with a 13yr old son and a 10 yr old hot on his heels but I am fairly confident that because, from the moment they were born, I have been the authority and they have to respect that.

I have only to give my kids a certain look or say their name in a certain manner and they will behave. I have never hit my kids and dont believe in it but they have been shown clear boundaries since they were tiny and now understand if they step outside those limits they will not like the consequences.

Respect is taught from tiny baby up and if parents cant be bothered to do that then they shouldnt have kids. My sons know that if either of them ever got into trouble they will lose all priveleges. PS3, football camps, sky tv, internet access etc are all priveleges not rights and they know it.

As for living in a bad area with kids, I loved my kids enough to give up the best job I ever had, the best social life I ever had and move back to Monaghan to bring them up where I know they are safer and less likely to fall in with a "bad" crowd. My eldest goes to non-alcoholic discos but only if I drive him there and collect him.

I am scared stiff of the next 8 years but I am totally committed to bringing us all through them and any parent that isnt should be ashamed of themselves.

Don't worry Magic. Sounds like you're doing a great job. As the father of an 18 year old daughter I know the pitfalls. Thankfully she turned out ok. She was taughtt right from wrong at an early age. Growing up in a village, everyone knew each other, yet she and her close friends despised those who resorted to the so called "knacker drinking". She plays Gaa and has won two championship medals and is now playing senior football (I could never get her to play soccer). Keep them occcupied and playing sport or involved in a hobby. Don't mind this crap of making them study every free minute in the race for points.

We also have about 80 nieces and nephews in our immediate family and there's only one of them who's gone wrong and yet his brother and sister are extremely successfull in their own fields. All you can hope for is that you've taught them right from wrong and that they'll remember that as they go through life.

Molaidh na n'og agus tiocfaidh siad ( with apologies to any gaelgoers)

[Rovers fan]

Molaidh na n'og agus tiocfaidh siad ( with apologies to any gaelgoers)

mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si. clearly you weren't taught too well!!

[deecay]

Molaidh na n'og agus tiocfaidh siad ( with apologies to any gaelgoers)
Apology accepted

[bennocelt]

Think it has to do with a lot of different causes really. Bad parenting, modern ireland and its drive for money above all else, social degradation (see the schools last week on RTE - teaching in cloak rooms), modern celeb obessed society, lack of moral leadership from above, etc

Wonder do kids read books these days. I mean there is a lot of bad parenting, and it seems a lot of kids just watch tv and go on the computer in their rooms and thats their homework for the day. Creating a society with a very short tempered attention span. I mean everything seems to be dumbed down nowadays, peopledont seem to think and reflect

When i was in asia travelling i was struck at how parents and children there really valued education and learning. Its no wonder that countries like China, India, Korea are the future. parents here just leave the responsibilitiy of bringing up their kids to teachers and the government, ie a cop out

I sometimes despair for this country :(

[Erstwhile Bóz]

mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si. clearly you weren't taught too well!!
Buail sa tóin í agus titfidh sí :)

[corkharps]

Is this a Joe Duffy thread?

[twowheelsonly]

I have two sons 18 and 21. Both were reared by the same parents in the same house on the same street and given the same food, same discipline, same educational opportunities same just about everything. One went to College to do Computer Science, the other went to Jail for stealing cars, doing drugs and being a general ****-artist etc.
I don't consider myself or my wife to be bad parents. We've done our best for all our kids, (Have 2 daughters 16 & 13 as well) we work hard in decent enough jobs and we don't spend our lives in the pub getting ****ed.
Thank God, (Fingers crossed) the 'bad' one seems to be snapping out of it now, only time will tell how he works out but I can tell you that our hearts have been broken by this despite years of cajoling, warning, threatening and entertaining him.
If the genius with all the answers posts on here I'd love if he got in contact with me to let me know where we went wrong.
Rant over..............

[pete]

Is this a Joe Duffy thread?

Yes.

We have corkharps on the line. How does that make you feel? ;)