View Full Version : Cardiff City/Derry City
Looks like UEFA are at it again.
An interesting development with Cardiff City has emerged.
Should they win the FA Cup, not as unlikley now as it might have been a few months ago, they will not be allowed compete in the UEFA Cup next season.
The reason is because they are under the juristiction of the Welsh FA. So, even though they compete in the English League and Cup they are ineligible to represent England in European competition.
It gets better though..............
They cannot represent Wales either because they compete in a foreign competition.
This was posted on out forum. Looking for a link atm.
But if its true what(if any) implications would it have for Derry.
They have represented us in the same situation.....
Is it a new ruling? If so would Derry be disallowed from representing us from now on?
DmanDmythDledge
10/03/2008, 9:32 PM
Presumably the same exception that allowed Derry to join the League of Ireland would still apply for them.
Sheridan
10/03/2008, 9:35 PM
What makes you think there's any parallel here? Derry aren't under the jurisdiction of the IFA.
What makes you think there's any parallel here? Derry aren't under the jurisdiction of the IFA.
I'm definitely not sure of anything. Just wondering.
How is the Cardiff situation different to the Derry one jurisdiction wise? Not sure of the details.
DmanDmythDledge
10/03/2008, 9:47 PM
Don't think Cardiff are under the jurisdiction of the FAW anymore- they're barred for entering the Welsh Cup anyway.
John83
10/03/2008, 9:48 PM
There's no equivalent problem for Derry here.
The problem, such as it is, is that Cardiff are registered with the Welch FA, and the English FA won't nominate them for Europe. Ever. UEFA have no problem with this, either way.
Derry are registered with the FAI, not the IFA, and even if they weren't, I don't think the FAI would be arrogant enough to refuse to let Derry take a European slot they earned.
As far as I know Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all registered with the Welsh FA but are allowed play in the English League. For many years all three teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup and (as far as I remember) represented Wales in the UEFA Cup if they won it.
For quite a while, English teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup. I think Hereford United were the last English team to win it in 1990 but the UEFA Cup spot was given to the best performing Welsh side. I'm guessing it's this precedent that applies to Cardiff City in the English FA Cup.
Derry City on the other hand are registered under the FAI and have no involvement whatsoever with the Irish FA.
rambler14
10/03/2008, 9:56 PM
Cardiff are under the system of he FAW (Football Assocition of Wales) and have opted to play in FA competition and so sacrifice European football.
Derry on the other hand are under the system of the FAI and have no association with the IFA.
finnpark
10/03/2008, 9:57 PM
This was posted on out forum. Looking for a link atm.
But if its true what(if any) implications would it have for Derry.
They have represented us in the same situation.....
Is it a new ruling? If so would Derry be disallowed from representing us from now on?
Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings. Proper order that they are banned, they should be playing in Wales
Candystripe
11/03/2008, 2:58 AM
Strange one.
Derry played Cardiff in the uefa cup in the 1990 season.
Drawing 0-0 in the Brandywell and losing 4-0 away.
I think it was after this that they gave up their Welsh creds when the welsh started their own league.
dortie
11/03/2008, 8:52 AM
We are under the FAI so there is no comparison, in addition to that the vast majority of Derry fans legally hold an Irish passport, in Cardiffs situation they consider themselves of a seperate nationality.
Registered with the FAI - Thats the main difference.
David
11/03/2008, 12:43 PM
As far as I know Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all registered with the Welsh FA but are allowed play in the English League. For many years all three teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup and (as far as I remember) represented Wales in the UEFA Cup if they won it.
For quite a while, English teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup. I think Hereford United were the last English team to win it in 1990 but the UEFA Cup spot was given to the best performing Welsh side. I'm guessing it's this precedent that applies to Cardiff City in the English FA Cup.
Derry City on the other hand are registered under the FAI and have no involvement whatsoever with the Irish FA.
I am pretty sure this part is wrong. As far as I am aware Derry as still registered with the IFA. I know they get grants etc. In the case of Cardiff I think it may be the English FA's choice not to have them as representatives.
neutrino
11/03/2008, 12:47 PM
Strange one.
Derry played Cardiff in the uefa cup in the 1990 season.
Drawing 0-0 in the Brandywell and losing 4-0 away.
I think it was after this that they gave up their Welsh creds when the welsh started their own league.
Cardiff used to get in via winning the FAW Cup but UEFA/FAW stopped this.
neutrino
11/03/2008, 12:50 PM
In the case of Cardiff I think it may be the English FA's choice not to have them as representatives.
exactly correct.
Flexy
11/03/2008, 12:54 PM
What grants? Not seen any since 1988
David
11/03/2008, 12:59 PM
What grants? Not seen any since 1988
Who paid for Derry City's YDO?
EalingGreen
11/03/2008, 1:28 PM
We are under the FAI so there is no comparison, in addition to that the vast majority of Derry fans legally hold an Irish passport, in Cardiffs situation they consider themselves of a seperate nationality.
Registered with the FAI - Thats the main difference.
Is there a prize for the most irrelevant point posted on any topic?
Anyhow, whilst the English FA permits Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr to play in their competitions, they will not allow them any of the European places open to English clubs.
Cardiff etc know that when they enter the FA Cup.
If they don't like that, then they can always try to qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup, although afaik they would then have to forfeit their entry to the FA Cup (and possibly even have to enter the Welsh League?).
As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.
We must also assume that UEFA have no objection to either situation, indeed most likely support them, since it is what their Member Associations want.
dcfc_legend9
11/03/2008, 2:29 PM
The way i see it though is that Cardiff city had a choice to go to the English league rather than stay in there own welsh league.
Derry had know choice whatsoever. We got forced out of the Irish league and thankfully got excepted into the league of ireland.
Surely this is the difference in the rules on why Derry are allowed to play in europe should they qualify through the LOI and cardiff arent allowed if they where to qualify.
Cardiff chose to leave the welsh league
Derry where forced out of the Irish league
Krstic
11/03/2008, 2:31 PM
Who paid for Derry City's YDO?
I believe that has more to do with the political jurisdiction that Derry City finds itself in.
Wasn't the money for the YDO's Government money??
I believe that has more to do with the political jurisdiction that Derry City finds itself in.
Wasn't the money for the YDO's Government money??
As far as I am aware it was from the IFA. I have read, but can't be specific to be honest, of you getting other IFA grants.
Krstic
11/03/2008, 2:37 PM
As far as I am aware it was from the IFA. I have read, but can't be specific to be honest, of you getting other IFA grants.
Not sure but doubt it, it may be Government money that is Distributed by the IFA, and as DCFC pay the same Taxes as the IL clubs, we're entitled to any Government handouts.
Réiteoir
11/03/2008, 4:06 PM
Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings.
To do that they would have to return and play in the Welsh Premier League - which the clubs don't want to do.
They can't have it both ways...
endabob1
11/03/2008, 4:28 PM
David is correct, it is actually up to the (English) FA who they nominate and Cardiff will not be nominated if they win the cup.
John83
11/03/2008, 4:52 PM
Perhaps a Derry official or someone who knows one can confirm whether they're registered with the IFA or the FAI, but the fact remains, if the FAI have no problem nominating Derry for a European spot, this is a non-issue here.
dcfc_1928
11/03/2008, 5:30 PM
That is correct - it was government money which the IFA were asked to administer and distribute.
Not sure but doubt it, it may be Government money that is Distributed by the IFA, and as DCFC pay the same Taxes as the IL clubs, we're entitled to any Government handouts.
garyderry
11/03/2008, 5:50 PM
Who paid for Derry City's YDO?
The YDO is for the region not the club,
We are 100% registered solely with the FAI for senior football,
i do remember us in the past having teams in junior football
under the IFA and got in an almighty mess were we had to transfer
players just to make a senior debut, we cut all ties at that stage, even to play
reserve teams in anyway under the IFA.
We are an FAI team, and are registered with Uefa as such and represent
our league and country on a regular(ish) basis, without any hassle at all.
The IFA have no say what so ever in anything to do with Derry City FC (Thank God)
We may apply for grants but form the assembly (as we are entitled to do so) but NOT from the IFA as we would not be entitled to.
garyderry
11/03/2008, 5:55 PM
As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.
How could derry possibly be registered with the IFA and NOT the FAI
That is just as daft as the post about irish passports,
We are a full 100% member of the Eircom League and The FAI, and entitled to the huge benefits of that membership / registration compared to being part of the FAI.
As much as everyone gives out about the FAI on a constant basis down here, its in the whole not the worst organisation in the world (by some degree) and the league is a pretty good league to be involved on.
kingdomkerry
11/03/2008, 7:22 PM
Is there a prize for the most irrelevant point posted on any topic?
Anyhow, whilst the English FA permits Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr to play in their competitions, they will not allow them any of the European places open to English clubs.
Cardiff etc know that when they enter the FA Cup.
If they don't like that, then they can always try to qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup, although afaik they would then have to forfeit their entry to the FA Cup (and possibly even have to enter the Welsh League?).
As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.
We must also assume that UEFA have no objection to either situation, indeed most likely support them, since it is what their Member Associations want.
How did I know you that was coming!
The way i see it though is that Cardiff city had a choice to go to the English league rather than stay in there own welsh league.
Welsh league only formed in last 20 odd years, card over 100 years old.
oh and whats a YDO?
kdjac
Youth Development Officer
Joe Strummer
11/03/2008, 8:04 PM
Cardiff played only a few weeks ago in the FAW Premier cup semi final against Newport County and were beating http://www.cardiffcityfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/MatchReport/0,,10335~43332,00.html
dcfcsteve
11/03/2008, 9:12 PM
Cardiff played only a few weeks ago in the FAW Premier cup semi final against Newport County and were beating http://www.cardiffcityfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/MatchReport/0,,10335~43332,00.html
That is a 'super cup' type competition for all Welsh clubs, including those in England, with no Euro qualification involved.
dcfcsteve
11/03/2008, 9:14 PM
Cardiff chose to leave the welsh league
Derry where forced out of the Irish league
As a previous piosrters has mentioned, Cardiff had no choice either - there was no national Welsh league until 1992.
That said, I believe all the Welsh exile teams playing in a Welsh league would be best for them as clubs (i.e. regular Euro qualification) and best for Welsh football.
HolylandsMan
11/03/2008, 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by finnpark View Post
Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings.
To do that they would have to return and play in the Welsh Premier League - which the clubs don't want to do.
I think I vaguely remember reading soemthing somewhere (possibly on here) which said that the Welsh FA would be happy for Cardiff etc to play reserve sides in the Welsh FA Cup to qualify for Europe that way so that Welsh performances would be improved.
I think Cardiff and Swansea were opposed as they were afraid it would jeopardise their position in the English Leagues.
dcfcsteve
11/03/2008, 11:15 PM
I think I vaguely remember reading soemthing somewhere (possibly on here) which said that the Welsh FA would be happy for Cardiff etc to play reserve sides in the Welsh FA Cup to qualify for Europe that way so that Welsh performances would be improved.
I think Cardiff and Swansea were opposed as they were afraid it would jeopardise their position in the English Leagues.
The complete opposite is true.
The rules of both the FA Cup and the Welsh FA Cup state that clubs must play their best available sides. It is a rule almost never enforced in England. However - in ther earkly years of the Welsh Premier League, the Welsh FA used to deliberately schedule the earleir rounds of the WFA Cup to fall on the same days as the earlier rounds of the English FA Cup. This was a sneaky way to stop the exile clubs playing - as they'd only field a second string for the Welsh versions, and would thereby be deemd in breach of the competition rules.
The Welsh FA won't let the exile clubs anywhere near European slots unless they're part of the Welsh Premier League. And rightly so. Meanwhile, the English FA wouldn't give a toss if the Welsh exiles played in the WFA Cup. They didn't care for decades when they did (as, indeed, did a number of English clubs).
historynut
12/03/2008, 10:46 AM
Allow me to put a Taff's angle on this (providing you guys will permit me to speak after Saturday).
Prior to 1992 there was no national league in Wales only regional, no wonder teams below Football League level who were ambitious tended to play across the border in english pyramid system. The only Welsh representation in Europe was via winning the Welsh Cup and this was only available to Welsh Clubs. So on occasion when one of the english border clubs reached the final, their Welsh opponents were guaranteed European entry wether they won or not. Fortunatly the scenario never arose if 2 english clubs reached the final.
When the decision was taken to establish a National League, apart from the big 3 my lot Wrexham, the Swans and Cardiff (whom I offer congrats on thier cup run), Welsh teams competing in england at that time were Newport (trying to regain League membership), Bangor City, Rhyl, Caernarfon, Colwyn Bay, Newtown, Barry Town, & Merthyr Tydfyl. With Bangor, Rhyl Barry & Merthyr having long established cross border credentials . Whilst the others had only crossed the border in recent seasons.
When the Welsh FA announced that a national league was to be set up, it was envisaged that these cross border clubs would come into the fold, however a number objected to being told where they had to play. Today only Newport (still after regaining League place) Mertyr & Colwyn Bay still play across border.
With UEFA thus recognising league champions for European entry, the National Cup had to be for Welsh based clubs only. After a number of seasons the FAW decided to set up a New Cup with sponsorship from BBCWales the FAW Premier Cup, no European entry but involving the big 3, top 5 FAW League clubs & top crossborder club from previous season. However the sponsorship has been withdrawn and this trophy was last played for last night when Newport beat Llanelli. There have been occasions when it has been muted that the winners would get European entry.
As for the FAW League the latest suggestion is to allow the big 3 to enter reserve teams. As you can appreciate member clubs not too happy about this.
Though the big 3 enter the FA Cup we know we wont qualify for Europe if won which this season has that possibiility.
Part of the problem is that the big 3 are not giving up over 80 years of english league history with its crowd appeal though this means no entry into Europe. Yet these are the only 3 clubs that would represent Welsh football to its best fore in Europe.
Why not have a gander at the Welsh Premier League website and see the level its at.
EalingGreen
12/03/2008, 10:47 AM
How could derry possibly be registered with the IFA and NOT the FAI
That is just as daft as the post about irish passports
In exactly the same way e.g as Cardiff being members of the FAW, but playing in the English FA's competitions.
Anyhow, I think DCFC Steve's above post has it just about spot on.
P.S. Out of curiousity, why is everyone so seemingly concerned about Cardiff? Or is it mere academic interest?
lilywhite stu
12/03/2008, 4:39 PM
The Welsh clubs playing in the English league(thay have always played in England) should be treated as English clubs and let enter Europe through English club competitions. The Welsh League is only semi-professional(I'm probably being generous calling it that) and serves its purpose as providing a semi-pro competition for clubs in the principality (Wales historically it is NOT a nation/country like Ireland, Scotland or England anyway and Gordon Brown is Prime Minister in Cardiff the same way as he is in Bristol). Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are simply playing in their local professional league, 'the football league'. While the Welsh clubs in the English league would like to participate in the FAW to acknowledge their Welshness I can very much understand why they would prefer to not roll over and die by joining a Welsh league.
historynut
12/03/2008, 5:59 PM
Lilywhite stu you are more than correct in what you say. However would you believe TNS and Llanelli are actually full-time !
Not only that but TNS are now english based in Oswestry. This as a result of merger between TNS and Oswestry Town. Oswestry were actually founder members of Welsh FA in 1876. When they sold their old ground years back, though they did'nt compete for a while the club continued, when their new ground was completed they were allowed to enter Welsh football due to their historic link. TNS was the village team from Llansantfraid some 8 miles from Oswestry within the Welsh border. TNS took the name of their sponsers Total Network Solutions, however when that company was sold the club took a new name keeping the same innitials 'The New Saints'. The move to Oswestry was to a better stadium (cough, cough) wth artificial pitch, and potentially (cough, cough, must get some strepsils) better crowds !N
In respect of the big 3 in Europe they & Newport (when a league side) all had good runs in the old Cup Winners Cup. Cardiff actually reached semi's in late 60's, not too sure what Swans best run was, and Newport & my lot Wrexham both reached Q/finals. Now those were the nights in the 70's Anderlecht (1-2 over 2 legs) and they reckoned they were lucky and gave them harder game than WHU in final.
The Welsh clubs playing in the English league(thay have always played in England) should be treated as English clubs and let enter Europe through English club competitions. The Welsh League is only semi-professional(I'm probably being generous calling it that) and serves its purpose as providing a semi-pro competition for clubs in the principality (Wales historically it is NOT a nation/country like Ireland, Scotland or England anyway and Gordon Brown is Prime Minister in Cardiff the same way as he is in Bristol). Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are simply playing in their local professional league, 'the football league'. While the Welsh clubs in the English league would like to participate in the FAW to acknowledge their Welshness I can very much understand why they would prefer to not roll over and die by joining a Welsh league.
Your whole argument about Wales not being a country unlike England/Scotland/Ireland is irrelevant to the debate. I'd argue against it, but this isn't the thread for it.
However, in terms of football Wales is certainly a seperate nation to the other UK nations. Our national team is fully recognised by all the relevant powers and is as valid as any other international side. Our FA runs a fully recognised national league and cups and these are again acknowledged by the various powers. So in footballing terms, we are a seperate nation, that is indisputable.
The reasons why Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport County, Merthyr Tydfil and Colwyn Bay all compete in England are historical although there are some grey areas for the non-league teams. Basically when the league was set-up in 1992 all Welsh clubs were playing in the English system of which the 'Welsh football league' was a division in non-league. Most Welsh clubs played in that, but those higher up, such as Bangor, Rhyl, Caernarfon, Newtown and others, as well as the ones stated above played in the higher echelons of the non-league and league pyramid against English teams.
In 1992 the FAW said that the non-league teams were told to join the newly formed national league. Eight of these resisted, including those listed above as well as Newport, Colwyn Bay and Merthyr. The league teams were given a period of five years' grace after which they too would join.
Only Merthyr were initially successful; the others then had long-running legal battles, which Newport, Colwyn Bay and Caernarfon won, while the others simply gave up and joined the league (although Caernarfon elected to quit the UniBond League a few years later and join the LOW).
The three league teams have never been approached legally despite the whole 5 years' grace having passed, so we still have the right to play in England and I suggest that if the FAW did try and force us to play in Wales we would resist strongly. However we are still full members of the FAW and are not registered with the FA. Technically, the FA wouldn't actually be able to nominate Cardiff for Europe even if they won the FA Cup because they don't have authority over them.
Also I find your comments about the Welsh Premier League to be pretty condescending and even factually wrong; there are actually two full time teams in the Welsh Premier, as has been mentioned.
As for the whole TNS thing, they are a club formed from a merger of two FAW-administered teams, Llansatffraid and Oswestry Town. Although Oswestry is actually something like 3 miles inside England they have always played their football in Wales so in light of that UEFA decided to let them keep playing here and represent us in Europe. That said, I do think we should be allowed to play in Europe by the same token. But it's not a situation that's likely to come up on any regular basis.
Also, as for the whole Derry paralell: I believe Derry were forced out of the Irish League as opposed to the Welsh clubs playing in England who do so by choice so it's not really the same thing.
historynut
12/03/2008, 7:04 PM
Well put Cymro, though one minor amendment Oswestry's link with Welsh FA is historic, rather than participation. Yes they did play in Welsh leagues and were regular entrants in Welsh Cup, the bulk of their legue football was in england, Cheshire League, Birmingham league, Northern Prem and if memory correct a short dabble in southern league.
holidaysong
12/03/2008, 7:07 PM
Uefa boss Michel Platini has pledged to help Cardiff if they win the FA Cup, but are refused entry to the Uefa Cup. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7292287.stm)
Well put Cymro, though one minor amendment Oswestry's link with Welsh FA is historic, rather than participation. Yes they did play in Welsh leagues and were regular entrants in Welsh Cup, the bulk of their legue football was in england, Cheshire League, Birmingham league, Northern Prem and if memory correct a short dabble in southern league.
They also joined the Welsh Premier in either 1992 when it was formed or in the next couple of years. I can't remember when exactly but they certainly played in it. They simply played in the English leagues before that because that was the common practice for the top Welsh non-league clubs, particularly those near the border.
I knew the Welsh clubs in the English League were affiliated to the Welsh FA. In the late 1980's Linfield were banned from playing home games at Windsor for two games and were told that home games had to be played at least 100 miles from Windsor Park. This obviously ruled out Northern Ireland and playing down south was not practical. There was talk of Scotland and playing at Ibrox but the Scottish FA said we could not play under their jurisdiction. The English FA soon said the same and it looked like we would have to go abroad until Wrexham kindly made the Racecourse Ground available to us and for that Linfield will always be greatful to them and their supporters who were absolutely fantastic to us. I have travelled all over Europe following Linfield and those two trips to Wrexham remain two of the best trips I have ever been on.
historynut
13/03/2008, 9:11 AM
If correct dont think crowds for those 2 games exceeded 2000 on each occasion.
Was'nt first time Racecourse used by other clubs for Euro nights.
If also correct think there was an annual friendly between clubs for a number of seasons after. Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!
holidaysong
13/03/2008, 11:04 AM
Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!
I'm sure David was a big fan of the co-Celtic hospitality.. :D;)
historynut
13/03/2008, 11:24 AM
Know dam well where you going with that !
Point being any fellow celt will always be welcome here as opposed to neighbours over border !
If correct dont think crowds for those 2 games exceeded 2000 on each occasion.
Was'nt first time Racecourse used by other clubs for Euro nights.
If also correct think there was an annual friendly between clubs for a number of seasons after. Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!
I think we brought around 7-800 on each occasion and this was boosted by some locals. The hospitality was quite superb and the atmosphere in the wee pub or club that was sort of attached to the ground was fantastic. There was an annual friendly that run for a few years, one year in Belfast, one year in Wrexham in the wake of this.
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