Irish Declaration

[Deckydee]

Gentlemen,

Just reading the thread there about Phil Bardsley and it has got me thinking.

I am aware of the site that you can see all the Irish players in England, but how does one go about getting himself on that list? Must he officially declare himself for Ireland and fill out a form for the FAI? Sounds like a silly question I know, but is it down to the players himself or are there scouts out there to try and convince players to play. I know it is not really right to try and convince someone to play for their country but you know what I mean.

What I would love is a website that would show players from the UK who HAVE NOT declared for the Republic, who can, and have not represented England at an U21 competitive game.

I guess my question is, could that be done and how would you go about doing it?

Going back to the site I mentioned above, is there one available for Europe as well? How about all us Paddys who live in different countries around the world, surely somewhere there is a future star in the making??

How about that Argentinean right back who played in the 1986 WC final with Maradonna who could have qualified for Ireland through his grandmother?

Decky Dee

[gustavo]

or how about anyone that wants to play for us shouldnt have to be cajoled into it and would just inform the FAI of their elegibility

[Deckydee]

I am not sure about that Gustavo. I only found out very recently (I am 28) that my sister was born in England. She said that she never really thought about it.

[back of the net]

I am not sure about that Gustavo. I only found out very recently (I am 28) that my sister was born in England. She said that she never really thought about it.

i know what ur saying in respect of your sister but i think in terms of a soccer player who is playing professionally and could be a serious contender for an international call up then surely family members would inform that player of their ancestral routes and thus other routes to international soccer

i would agree with gustavo on this one decky dee

[dr_peepee]

I am not sure about that Gustavo. I only found out very recently (I am 28) that my sister was born in England. She said that she never really thought about it.

How old did you say your sister was?

[Torn-Ado]

How about we have all Irish players play for us instead. Just for the novelty of it.

[micls]

For me, to play for Ireland there should be 2 conditions
1) You are eligible
2) You consider yourself Irish.

If you dont know you've Irish links til you're in your 20's and deciding on an international team then in my eyes you are not Irish

[Wangball]

How about the manager is allowed to pick the best 11 players that available regardless of where they were born or whether they have to be begged or cajoled into playing or declaring for us in the first place...if Phil Bardsley came into our squad and performed well in a troublesome position for us then as far as I'm concerned it would be worth any begging or cajoling

[Plastic Paddy]

How about the manager is allowed to pick the best 11 players that available regardless of where they were born

I agree with this part of your post Wangball but not the rest. Speaking as a Cockernee who would crawl over broken glass to don the green, the shirt and the honour that wearing it confers are both worth far more than that.

:ball: PP

[Paulie]

if Phil Bardsley came into our squad and performed well in a troublesome position for us then as far as I'm concerned it would be worth any begging or cajoling

To say the very least, that's rather misguided.

[micls]

How about the manager is allowed to pick the best 11 players that available regardless of where they were born or whether they have to be begged or cajoled into playing or declaring for us in the first place...


But then whats the point of international football? what makes its different from club football?

International football should be about pride and passion. Doing it for the jersey and for your country. Otherwise I don't see a point.

[boovidge]

i think the player makes it known to the irish set up that his is elegible rather than a formal declaration. Could Liam Lawrence theoretically be in the next england squad even though he's "declared" for ireland?

[Wangball]

i think the player makes it known to the irish set up that his is elegible rather than a formal declaration. Could Liam Lawrence theoretically be in the next england squad even though he's "declared" for ireland?

We should make him stand on the steps of the GPO and get him to read some form of solemn statement declaring his undying love for this, the land of his forefathers and pledge his international future to us and us only!!!.....Just in case

[Wangball]

But then whats the point of international football? what makes its different from club football?

International football should be about pride and passion. Doing it for the jersey and for your country. Otherwise I don't see a point.

I see your point but its just a sad fact of the game that the majority of players don't think that way, if some lad called Esteban O Reilly (Irish Father) was playing for Boca Juniors & he was tearing it up, you'd want to wait until he came cap in hand to us begging for a cap rather than sending someone out there to ask/beg/plead with him to jump aboard the good ship mediocrity??

[micls]

I see your point but its just a sad fact of the game that the majority of players don't think that way, if some lad called Esteban O Reilly (Irish Father) was playing for Boca Juniors & he was tearing it up, you'd want to wait until he came cap in hand to us begging for a cap rather than sending someone out there to ask/beg/plead with him to jump aboard the good ship mediocrity??

Yes.

It's just a personal thing I guess, but if we're going about convincing people who dont consider themselves Irish to represent us then I dont see the point of international football.

I'd rather 11 poor/average players who consider themselves Irish than 11 superstars who don't tbh.

[Reddladd]

I agree with micls 100% on this issue.......the international scene is being diluted by players looking for personal gain as opposed to pride and passion or 'love' for their country!

[superfrank]

I myself qualify to play for the States as my mother was born in Chicago and if I had made it to be a top professional player and there was talk of international call-ups, I would go to play for the country that expressed most desire to have me. I would want to play international football but I'd rather play for a country that really wanted me over one that would just throw me so they call on me in the future.

[micls]

I myself qualify to play for the States as my mother was born in Chicago and if I had made it to be a top professional player and there was talk of international call-ups, I would go to play for the country that expressed most desire to have me. I would want to play international football but I'd rather play for a country that really wanted me over one that would just throw me so they call on me in the future.

What would make you want to play international football?

[Wangball]

What would make you want to play international football?

I'm guessing that the answer you want is that he wants to play international football because he loves his country & nothing would make him more proud (it'd be my answer) but this isn't the kind of answer your gonna get too often anymore....it goes back to the Stuart Pearce thing where he asked a young professional told hi he's rather have a Ferrari than an international cap....it might not be an ideal situation to have to ask players to represent their country but its sadly a sign of the times

[micls]

I'm guessing that the answer you want is that he wants to play international football because he loves his country & nothing would make him more proud (it'd be my answer) but this isn't the kind of answer your gonna get too often anymore....it goes back to the Stuart Pearce thing where he asked a young professional told hi he's rather have a Ferrari than an international cap....it might not be an ideal situation to have to ask players to represent their country but its sadly a sign of the times

Not the answer I want, or expect but the answer would explain why he'd choose one country over another.

If we go too far down this road, and a lot of fault lies with the players, then we might as well scrap international football as there is no point to it

[Wangball]

To say the very least, that's rather misguided.

I'm not flag waving for mercenaries here, I'm just saying that in some instances the ends do justify the means

[Wangball]

Not the answer I want, or expect but the answer would explain why he'd choose one country over another.

If we go too far down this road, and a lot of fault lies with the players, then we might as well scrap international football as there is no point to it


Thats rather sensationalist

[micls]

Thats rather sensationalist

Why?

Lets look past wanting to have an Irish team to support.

What is the purpose of international football?

For me, its a team of Irishmen playing a team of English/French/Spanish men etc. It's playing for pride in your country and testing the best of you against the best of others.

If national teams are scouting those who dont even consider themselves Irish/Scottish/Qutari then what is the point?

Im not saying right now. But if in 20 years the best 11 players that qualify for Ireland under the rules dont consider themselves Irish(same for other nationalities) then I certainly couldnt support that team as an Irish team. They are no different than a club team at that stage and Id see no point in international football

[antrimgreen]

With you on this 1 micls, no point in having to beg a player to play because his granny is Irish, screw that, as said before you should be playing for your country out of pride, passion & love for the land that you class as home.

Superfrank you would play for the USA, i would rather stick forkes in my eye than represent a country that i did not class as my nation/home.

[irishfan86]

With you on this 1 micls, no point in having to beg a player to play because his granny is Irish, screw that, as said before you should be playing for your country out of pride, passion & love for the land that you class as home.

Superfrank you would play for the USA, i would rather stick forkes in my eye than represent a country that i did not class as my nation/home.

I think a lot of Irish born and bred fail to understand the complexities of national identity a lot of people face now in a world of increasing globalization, where immigration is commonplace in all of the western world.

I was born in Ireland, and moved to Canada at age 4. I was raised by Irish parents and consider myself Irish, but I was raised in Canada and this is my home. I am also Canadian.

I feel connections to both countries and would proudly represent either in international competition if I were good enough (Ireland would be my first choice though ;) ).

Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.

A lot of you seem to think that people should have absolute dedication to one country without any love for any other country they have connections to at all.

Unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated than that, and it will increasingly become common for people to claim connections to many nationalities, and it will be interesting to see how this affects international football in the long term.

So, hypothetically, for those purests among you, would you want me to represent Ireland if I were good enough?

[micls]

I think a lot of Irish born and bred fail to understand the complexities of national identity a lot of people face now in a world of increasing globalization, where immigration is commonplace in all of the western world.

I was born in Ireland, and moved to Canada at age 4. I was raised by Irish parents and consider myself Irish, but I was raised in Canada and this is my home. I am also Canadian.

I feel connections to both countries and would proudly represent either in international competition if I were good enough (Ireland would be my first choice though ;) ).

Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.

A lot of you seem to think that people should have absolute dedication to one country without any love for any other country they have connections to at all.

Unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated than that, and it will increasingly become common for people to claim connections to many nationalities, and it will be interesting to see how this affects international football in the long term.

So, hypothetically, for those purests among you, would you want me to represent Ireland if I were good enough?

No, thats not the point Im making at all.

My only point was that I think people should consider themselves Irish. Thats not to say they have to consider themselves only Irish, but certainly have a strong will, passion for playing for Ireland.

If they are eligible and consider themselves Irish in this way then I dont have a problem at all.
]
Its those who dont even know they are Irish (like the Bardsley example) who were chasing just because they're half decent is what I have a problem with.

[superfrank]

What would make you want to play international football?
The challenge of playing at that stage. That's what I want. For me, international football has very little to do with national identity anymore.

I am very proud of being Irish. There's no doubting that and Ireland would definitely be my first choice but like I said I'd rather play for a team (club or nation) that actually wanted me.

When you see the amount of people switching nationalities in football these days, I feel it devalues the national identity aspect. Think of the great players that have switched nationality: Puskas, Di Stefano, Vieira, Desailly, Camoranesi, et al. For me, national footballing sides are there to display the best available players, like club sides but they simply have bigger support.

And in all honesty, I don't think all players do it for the pride of wearing the shirt. And I don't mean the obvious cases (Clinton Morrison). Don't international footballers get bonuses? What player that's truly patriotic will be paid to play for his country?

[micls]

The challenge of playing at that stage. That's what I want. For me, international football has very little to do with national identity anymore.

I am very proud of being Irish. There's no doubting that and Ireland would definitely be my first choice but like I said I'd rather play for a team (club or nation) that actually wanted me.

When you see the amount of people switching nationalities in football these days, I feel it devalues the national identity aspect. Think of the great players that have switched nationality: Puskas, Di Stefano, Vieira, Desailly, Camoranesi, et al. For me, national footballing sides are there to display the best available players, like club sides but they simply have bigger support.

And in all honesty, I don't think all players do it for the pride of wearing the shirt. And I don't mean the obvious cases (Clinton Morrison). Don't international footballers get bonuses? What player that's truly patriotic will be paid to play for his country?

Good post and honest.

And this is why I think the future international football is very shaky.

As you said more and more players will play for the challenge of playing at that level, or to increase transfer value etc.

Again for me, this isnt the point of international football, so as time goes on it is getting more and more pointless to me and Im losing interest. Its becoming more and more like the club game, with as you mentioned above the money aspect.

If its not about national identity then whats the point?

And despite all this, Im not in any way a nationalist, I'm very far from it in general. I just think if its gonna be just another version of club football then there is no reason to have international football. And I think its a shame

[GavinZac]

So, hypothetically, for those purests among you, would you want me to represent Ireland if I were good enough?
Irish people are Irish because they've been brought up amongst Irish people and in Irish culture.

You've been brought up in Canada with Canadian people in Canadian culture. Everything you've experienced about Ireland and the Irish (im making an assumption here because I'm actually speaking in general about 2nd gens) comes from just 2 people. If I had only met 2 Irish people in my life, no matter how 'Irish' they are or instrumental they've been in my life, I don't think I could consider myself Irish. To me, you're a Canadian whose parents are Irish. "Irish" is about more than heritage or birthplaces, its your way of life, your culture. Assuming culture can be passed genetically is a slippery slope to racism! I think assuming that you can garner an experience of a way of life or a culture from a minuscule subset of said culture is a fallacy a lot of 2nd gens make - and its very strange when you meet someone who has never been to Ireland and doesn't "get it" yet they loudly shout "oh hey I'm Irish!" across tables bars.

This isn't a put down, and I hope it doesn't come across that way, its just my opinion. Obviously we aren't going to share much common ground because we haven't experienced each other's situations. I'm not claiming to be "super irish!" either or anything, I'm probably the least patriotic/nationalist person im aware of, because I think its pointless trying to feel affinity with people you have very little in common with; As a Cork person, the culture I would have in common with a republican from armagh, or a D4-dweller, or a farmer in newtwopothouse is tenuous at best. Your own experience of "Irish Culture" would be even more narrow and select, and your links with any of these 'subcultures' that your parents arent from would be tenuous as far as to be negligible.

However, in broader terms, you're right, its a grey area with the on-set of globalisation and certainly not something as clear cut as we would like in our game of rules, lines and scores.

[irishfan86]

Well, if half of this forum can support big four English teams located in cities they've probably never resided in, I'm sure you won't begrudge me supporting the country of my birth in international competition. :rolleyes:

[SkStu]

thats a pretty blinkered approach to take towards such an issue GZ though i totally agree with where youre coming from in terms of the american guy in the bar who is "irish, man" but doesnt really know where it is or how it is he is irish...

irishfan86 is clearly irish - in much the same way as my kids will be irish despite the likelihood that they will be born and raised in Canada. Also, my wife who is Canadian born with Croatian parents and Croatian born sisters would slit my throat if i questioned her Croatian-ness (??). In my opinion she is Croatian and all you have to do is look how she was brought up and the pride of her parents in their country to know that her feelings are genuine... without wanting to speak for him, im sure IrishFan86 has been through something similar.

[irishfan86]

thats a pretty blinkered approach to take towards such an issue GZ though i totally agree with where youre coming from in terms of the american guy in the bar who is "irish, man" but doesnt really know where it is or how it is he is irish...

irishfan86 is clearly irish - in much the same way as my kids will be irish despite the likelihood that they will be born and raised in Canada. Also, my wife who is Canadian born with Croatian parents and Croatian born sisters would slit my throat if i questioned her Croatian-ness (??). In my opinion she is Croatian and all you have to do is look how she was brought up and the pride of her parents in their country to know that her feelings are genuine... without wanting to speak for him, im sure IrishFan86 has been through something similar.

Most kids had lullabies and nursery rhymes, I had "we are the boys in green, the best you've ever seen...." :o

[NeilMcD]

There is no hard and fast rule in relation to this but I am prepared to go with the Brian Kerr one, do they qualify, are they good enough and do they want to play for us and nobody else this is where Aiden McGeady fell into.

[cheifo]

I would prefer players with the following criteria to represent my country.
1)They are eligible
2)They grew up supporting Ireland.

[GavinZac]

Well, if half of this forum can support big four English teams located in cities they've probably never resided in, I'm sure you won't begrudge me supporting the country of my birth in international competition. :rolleyes:

Oh, believe me, I'd begrudge them a whole lot more.

And, at the risk of repeating myself, I was speaking in general terms. In general, despite what they believe, second gens are quite detached from the reality of Irish culture. For proof, look 15 years ago when the majority of Ireland was appalled by the ongoing IRA attacks, whilst they received their funding and support from "well meaning" Irish-Americans.

[tetsujin1979]

I would prefer players with the following criteria to represent my country.
1)They are eligible
2)They grew up supporting Ireland.That would wipe out Clinton Morrison. I'm not having that.

[osarusan]

I would prefer players with the following criteria to represent my country.
1)They are eligible
2)They grew up supporting Ireland.

I'd like those criteria too, but to be honest, I'll take anybody with even the slightest link to Ireland, who may never have even cared about the team or country before being approached by the FAI to play for Ireland.

I think it's possible that players who decide to play for us but don't really feel Irish at the time will come to realise what it's all about the longer they play for the team, and the more time they spend in Ireland. But then, if they don't come around to this viewpoint, I'm not too bothered either.

Under the criteria some people are favouring here, we'd have been missing quite a few players from our team during the "golden era" of the late 80's and early 90's.


Hurtful rejections shaped Houghton's early club and international career. West Ham let him go after only one game and u-18 Scotland manager Andy Roxburgh said he wasn't good enough for Scotland. Houghton bounced back with Oxford and starred for Ireland, as his father was born in Donegal.

[Colbert Report]

For me, to play for Ireland there should be 2 conditions
1) You are eligible
2) You consider yourself Irish.

If you dont know you've Irish links til you're in your 20's and deciding on an international team then in my eyes you are not Irish

Great post! I was born and live in Canada to two Irish parents and having grown up in Ireland myself during the Charlton years I'd give my left ball to play for Ireland. Even if I only came on as a meaningless last second sub in a friendly against Equador!

[antrimgreen]

Oh, believe me, I'd begrudge them a whole lot more.

And, at the risk of repeating myself, I was speaking in general terms. In general, despite what they believe, second gens are quite detached from the reality of Irish culture. For proof, look 15 years ago when the majority of Ireland was appalled by the ongoing IRA attacks, whilst they received their funding and support from "well meaning" Irish-Americans.

Wind your neck in Gavin, some people living on the Island are far detached for the reality on the Island. Give it a rest and don't try and bring politics into sport, they don't mix.

[boovidge]

For proof, look 15 years ago when the majority of Ireland was appalled by the ongoing IRA attacks, whilst they received their funding and support from "well meaning" Irish-Americans.

You could say the same thing about the minority of irishmen that supported the IRA at the time though. Just because a certain number of irish americans (more than likely not 2nd or 3rd gen anyway) supported the IRA doesn't reflect on the whole irish diaspora around the world and how "in touch" they are with Ireland.

[livehead1]

I have an old friend who I went to school with. He was born in England with an Irish born father. All through school he was Irish as they come, however, I met up with him the other day and he was sporting a rather fetching England shirt, he's now aged 21. How would the criteria work for this particular chap!

[RogerMilla]

Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.


fcuk the begrudgers irish fan, i really hope those muppets would not keep you away. ( oh but please learn the anthem ! )

[Deckydee]

So some people agree with my orginal post in that International football is not what is used to be.

Some got a number for Bardsley then? :p

[Drumcondra 69er]

I have an old friend who I went to school with. He was born in England with an Irish born father. All through school he was Irish as they come, however, I met up with him the other day and he was sporting a rather fetching England shirt, he's now aged 21. How would the criteria work for this particular chap!

The only criteria you'd need to know would be the administration of a swift kick to the goolies in that instance.....:D

You either follow one or the other, flip flopping is unacceptable! I generally go to the away games with 2nd generation lads who are as staunch as they come but I also know a few lads born in England of Irish parentage who follow England. That's their perogative but you can't chop and change!

[GavinZac]

Wind your neck in Gavin, some people living on the Island are far detached for the reality on the Island. Give it a rest and don't try and bring politics into sport, they don't mix.

National identity, the topic of this thread, is a political issue. They do mix - its called international football? :confused:

[endabob1]

I love the moral high-horse carry on that goes on in threads like this. Reducing nationality to a form of mathematics, maybe we should introduce a points system to determine who are allowed support and play for Ireland.
1 point for knowing the national anthem opening line & endy bit (2 bonus points for knowing the whole lot)
2 points for hating all things British (except Man Utd obviously because “jaysus shurr Keano made them great anyways”)
-1 point for not having been born and bred within the free state
-2 points for having a foreign accent –3 if it’s a particularly annoying loud American one or a Cheeky Cockney geezer one.

Etc…

[paul_oshea]

Irish people are Irish because they've been brought up amongst Irish people and in Irish culture.

You've been brought up in Canada with Canadian people in Canadian culture. Everything you've experienced about Ireland and the Irish (im making an assumption here because I'm actually speaking in general about 2nd gens) comes from just 2 people. If I had only met 2 Irish people in my life, no matter how 'Irish' they are or instrumental they've been in my life, I don't think I could consider myself Irish. To me, you're a Canadian whose parents are Irish. "Irish" is about more than heritage or birthplaces, its your way of life, your culture. Assuming culture can be passed genetically is a slippery slope to racism! I think assuming that you can garner an experience of a way of life or a culture from a minuscule subset of said culture is a fallacy a lot of 2nd gens make - and its very strange when you meet someone who has never been to Ireland and doesn't "get it" yet they loudly shout "oh hey I'm Irish!" across tables bars.

This isn't a put down, and I hope it doesn't come across that way, its just my opinion. Obviously we aren't going to share much common ground because we haven't experienced each other's situations. I'm not claiming to be "super irish!" either or anything, I'm probably the least patriotic/nationalist person im aware of, because I think its pointless trying to feel affinity with people you have very little in common with; As a Cork person, the culture I would have in common with a republican from armagh, or a D4-dweller, or a farmer in newtwopothouse is tenuous at best. Your own experience of "Irish Culture" would be even more narrow and select, and your links with any of these 'subcultures' that your parents arent from would be tenuous as far as to be negligible.

However, in broader terms, you're right, its a grey area with the on-set of globalisation and certainly not something as clear cut as we would like in our game of rules, lines and scores.


I feel sorry for ye zac, but more importantly I feel sorry for the fact, that more and more people are probably begining to think like you too. :(

[paul_oshea]

The only criteria you'd need to know would be the administration of a swift kick to the goolies in that instance.....:D

You either follow one or the other, flip flopping is unacceptable! I generally go to the away games with 2nd generation lads who are as staunch as they come but I also know a few lads born in England of Irish parentage who follow England. That's their perogative but you can't chop and change!

i just had that experience right now, with the lad sitting across from me at work, his parents are irish and he was born in manchester, proceeded to tell me his cousins are in the Garda. then I said ah "your what we call a plastic" and he goes, no I'm not, I'm English. I was born in Manchester how could I be Irish. He then told me of when he was playing hockey u21s ( I think he said for england but i didnt quite catch it ) and he got a call from Ireland asking him to play for Ireland :D He said no, "cos I'm English", but I think his surname is parker, so that explains a lot, plus his parents were dubs, prolly south dubs too :D So its not just the FAI. Its down to the parenting at the end of the day, I am 110% sure of that. I have seen it all over the shop, particularly here in London.

[NeilMcD]

I think when it comes to 2nd generation it really is a choice that they can make and it is largely to do with upbringing and there is not right or wrong way with this. I would not hold anything against your work mate for thinking he is English. .

[paul_oshea]

I think when it comes to 2nd generation it really is a choice that they can make and it is largely to do with upbringing and there is not right or wrong way with this. I would not hold anything against your work mate for thinking he is English. .

I'm not, its his haircut. Only joking, no its horses for courses but its down to your upbringing 100% and how your parents influence you ( everything falls into this statement, in terms of schooling etc, immersion ).