The Dutch football team

[paul_oshea]

I was out at a bar ( a metal/rock bar, in case you were wondering ;) ) in soho on Friday night, and I met this dutch guy. He was big into the dutch football team too, anyhow I asked him about when we beat holland, and he said well ireland would be a well respected team in holland and seen as good ( or were back then ), but he said for the last 6 or 7 years the media haven't concentrated on holland football like they used to, as they think they are very average compared to previous teams.

Anyhow he asked me if I could name the team ( and I asked him the same about ireland ), I named about 6 or 7 and then he told me the rest, and he didn’t name that many for ireland ( but when I mentioned names like given, dunne, duff, keane etc ) he had heard of these and I think possibly mcgeady as well…..anyhow he said that only 4 or 5 players are at top 4 clubs etc.

So it got me thinking, that basically their team on paper wouldn't be much better ( and he agreed in terms of clubs etc ) and they beat bulgaria convincingly enough, he also said that bulgaria were very limited..

But then I thought about their team over the weekend, and it’s a lot stronger than I though and he said..

Zeedorf
Van nistleroy
Robben
Van der saar
Van persie
Babel
kuyt
de zeeuw
schneider

But heres wikipedia
No. Pos. Player DoB/Age Caps Goals Club
GK Maarten Stekelenburg 22 September 1982 10 0 Ajax
GK Edwin van der Sar 29 October 1970 122 0 Manchester United
DF Mario Melchiot 4 November 1976 19 0 Wigan Athletic
DF Joris Mathijsen 5 April 1980 27 2 Hamburger SV
DF Tim de Cler 8 November 1978 10 0 Feyenoord
DF John Heitinga 15 November 1983 31 3 Ajax
DF Urby Emanuelson 16 June 1986 10 0 Ajax
MF Rafael van der Vaart 11 February 1983 50 12 Hamburger SV
MF Giovanni van Bronckhorst 5 February 1975 73 4 Feyenoord
MF Demy de Zeeuw 26 May 1983 10 0 AZ
MF Ibrahim Afellay 2 April 1986 1 0 PSV
MF Wesley Sneijder 9 June 1984 41 8 Real Madrid
MF Nigel de Jong 30 November 1984 19 0 Hamburger SV
MF David Mendes da Silva 4 August 1982 1 0 AZ
FW Ryan Babel 19 December 1986 21 4 Liverpool
FW Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink 11 July 1978 12 1 Celtic
FW Klaas-Jan Huntelaar 12 August 1983 9 3 Ajax







Look at those clubs, nothing too special, but yer man from aston villa should be there too. Anyhow point is, I dont think on paper at least they are that much stronger....

[Morbo]

If only games were played on paper, still though, they have 4 or 5 at top 4 teams while we have Finnan(quit) and O'Shea(hardly gets a game these days) so I think they are still a fair bit better even on paper

[mackannovic]

Andre Ooijer should be in there too.

[youngirish]

Paul on paper that squad is way, way better than ours. Bit early to be drunk/stoned isn't it?

I wouldn't expect us to be anywhere near the Dutch in terms of the talent we produce. They consistently produce some of the best individuals in world football (far better than the English imo). Their problem historically is similar to ours at the moment though in that they are often less of a team than the sum of their parts. If we are looking at comparisons of how well we can do I would rate us as similar in terms of individual player quality to someone like the Czechs (possibly slightly behind but similar) but way behind the Dutch.

Anyway how good does your squad have to be when Kuyt, Robben or Van Persie can't get into it ( I know Van Persie is injured) where's Kuyt and Robben? They would be our 3 best players.

[paul_oshea]

kuyt is crap though, and robben hasn't done a great deal in a while.

Would you rate Ajax, Feyenoord, hamburg and PSV much higher than the top 7 teams in the premiership?! we have a lot of players that fall within that category. I know they get into the CL, but thats because the dutch league is in no comparison to the EPL apart from maybe the top 2 or 3 teams....

[Oink]

Robben, Van der Vaart, van Bronckhorst, Van persie, Huntelaar, Seedorf, Drenthe, Ooijer, Sneijder, Van Nistelrooy and Bouma would all walk into our starting eleven.


Here is a more recent and accurate squad:

Goalkeepers: Edwin van der Sar (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/edwin-vandersar.html) (Manchester United), Maarten Stekelenburg (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/maarten-stekelenburg.html) (Ajax)
Defenders: Wilfred Bouma (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/wilfred-bouma.html) (Aston Villa (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/aston-villa/)), Tim de Cler, (Feyenoord), John Heitinga (Ajax Amsterdam), Joris Mathijsen (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/joris-mathijsen.html) (Hamburg), Mario Melchiot (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/mario-melchiot.html) (Wigan Athletic (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/wigan-athletic/)), Andre Ooijer (Blackburn Rovers (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/blackburn-rovers/)).
Mifdielders: Ibrahim Afellay (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/ibrahim-afellay.html) (PSV Eindhoven), Giovanni van Bronckhorst (Feyenoord), Orlando Engelaar (Twente Enschede), Nigel de Jong (SV Hamburg), Denny Landzaat (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/danny-landzaat.html) (Feyenoord), Clarence Seedorf (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/clarence-seedorf.html) (AC Milan), Wesley Sneijder (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/wesley-sneijder.html) (Real Madrid), Rafael van der Vaart (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/rafael-vandervaart.html) (Hamburg), Demy de Zeeuw (AZ Alkmaar).
Forwards: Ryan Babel (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/ryan-babel.html) (Liverpool), Klaas Jan Huntelaar (Ajax), Ruud van Nistelrooy (Real Madrid), Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink (Celtic (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/celtic/)).

[RogerMilla]

kuyt is crap though, and robben hasn't done a great deal in a while.
....

robben is on fire at real madrid .


we are nowhere near the dutch in terms of talent .

[paul_oshea]

robben is on fire at real madrid .


we are nowhere near the dutch in terms of talent .


he's on fire?! he hasnt even got 6 goals! http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/topscorers?league=esp.1&cc=5739

[Lim till i die]

he's on fire?! he hasnt even got 6 goals!

Just as well he's not a striker then isn't it

That Dutch team is far, far, superior to the Irish team.

I can't believe you're even trying to start a debate.

[RogerMilla]

he's on fire?! he hasnt even got 6 goals! http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/topscorers?league=esp.1&cc=5739

jaysis you're a hard taskmaster!! :D

he is playing brilliantly .

[geysir]

he's on fire?! he hasnt even got 6 goals! http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/topscorers?league=esp.1&cc=5739

Paul, you are offering statistics to support an argument :eek:

How many assists has Robben had :D

[Supreme feet]

We are not better than Holland, and I don't think paul is implying that. We don't have the tradition, the domestic league or the population to compete at Holland's level. They expect to qualify for every tournament, and to at least be competitive in the latter stages. Our barometer for success is simply qualification.

However, one criticism of the Irish team in recent years is that not enough of our players play for 'top clubs', as was the case in the 80s, when we had a wealth of Irish players at Liverpool, Arsenal and Man Utd. However, with the emergence of the G-14, how many countries can boast a large presence of their international players in the 'top clubs'? In USA 94, the Italian national team contained almost all of the all-conquering AC Milan side. When Inter came to Anfield last week as Italian champions, their line-up contained one Italian.

The top clubs are all truly multinational affairs. Since the proliferation of Brazilian, Argentinean and, increasingly, African players into the top clubs, European players inevitably lose out. In France 98, Croatia's team included a number of players from Milan (Boban), Juve (Tudor), Inter (Simic), Real (Jarni, Suker) and Barca (Prosinecki). The Kovac brothers would go on to play for Bayern. How many of the consistently impressive Croatian side now play for top clubs? Even Holland, as Paul has shown, don't boast as many players at the biggest clubs as they used to, and they are a truly great footballing nation.

Ireland may not have a huge representation of talent at the highest level of club football, but then, neither do Croatia, Sweden, Poland, Bulgaria or many of the other middle-ranked European nations who rightly aspire towards qualification for major tournaments.

[paul_oshea]

ok this did sound better when i was ****ed of a friday night, but this dutch lad was convincing in his argument that the Dutch football players are very average, and that most of them are over-rated.

The one he really pointed out was van der vaart as being really good, but schneider, de zeeuw, melchiot, van bronckhorst, landzaat and bouma were all very average in his opinion, maybe though he didnt realise how average Ireland were, and thats the point I was seeing :D

The overall point I was trying to make was that, bar a few they dont have many at top clubs and qualified rather easily. Surely, we should be able to do the same, if say we have players that play in teh top 7 of the premiership, as I would assume alot of these would be at a level in or around ( currently ) ajax, feyernoord and PSV, for example....

[paul_oshea]

We are not better than Holland, and I don't think paul is implying that. We don't have the tradition, the domestic league or the population to compete at Holland's level. They expect to qualify for every tournament, and to at least be competitive in the latter stages. Our barometer for success is simply qualification.


Thats actually an interesting point, he asked me those questions exactly, and i said qualification is basically a measure of success to us now, because we have been poor for the last 6 years in qualification, I also said that if we qualified getting out of the group would definitely be a high indicator of success in Ireland. He also mentioned that the reason for his argument was because there measure of success is about winning cups or getting there or thereabouts. At the moment he said the dutch people dont see anything near that and therefore have become stagnant in their support and belief in the team.

[carloz]

Id take what he said with a pinch of salt. he dismisses Bulgaria yet they came very close to knocking out the Dutch, only one point seperated them. Also arent the bulgarians in the top 20 in the world now. the Dutch have always been an overly cocky nationality football wise. I certainly wont be dismissing the Bulgarians simply on that. Im having nightmares of watching Stephen kelly trying to mark Martin Petrov or John O'Shea trying to handle Berbatov:eek:

[paul_oshea]

Id take what he said with a pinch of salt. he dismisses Bulgaria yet they came very close to knocking out the Dutch, only one point seperated them. Also arent the bulgarians in the top 20 in the world now. the Dutch have always been an overly cocky nationality football wise. I certainly wont be dismissing the Bulgarians simply on that. Im having nightmares of watching Stephen kelly trying to mark Martin Petrov or John O'Shea trying to handle Berbatov:eek:

Ya, that wasn't the gist of what i was getting at though. So I wasn't really focusing on that point. He didnt dismiss them, just said bar a few they were quite limited and he said nothing to worry us about them ( but maybe taken from his belief that Ireland are better than they actually are ). He wasn't cocky towards the Dutch, thats my point, he was saying that the Dutch public haven't much confidence in the team at the moment.

[carloz]

No confidence in their international team!! Damn we sure know how that feels:(

[jmurphyc]

I'd say that whilst they don't have as much quality as they used to and aren't as good as the top tier of teams in Europe, they are definitely in the second tier along with teams like Croatia, Czech Republic, etc. We are not at this level yet, but hopefully will be there again soon. Also, you've got to remember that whilst we did have an incompetent manager and a good few injuries, this 'average' dutch side isn't that different from the one that beat us 4-0.

[Stuttgart88]

Who was the full back that went to Chelsea and was crap? Eastern European or muslim name. I was amazed Chelsea bought him as he was crap in that crazy game against Portugal in the last WC.

[geysir]

Crazy Dutchmen from the game against portugal?
Boularouz or Van Bommell - take your pick.

The only player my Dutch mates could remark upon that made the difference was Roy Keane in sept 2001. Simply put, he scared the sh'ite out of them, a controlled psychopath.

[stojkovic]

Crazy Dutchmen from the game against portugal?
Boularouz or Van Bommell - take your pick.

The only player my Dutch mates could remark upon that made the difference was Roy Keane in sept 2001. Simply put, he scared the sh'ite out of them, a controlled psychopath.

YES, even his team-mate Stam wouldnt tackle him.

[Torn-Ado]

YES, even his team-mate Stam wouldnt tackle him.

And thats the reason we won't qualify for the next WC regardless of a new manager.

No player like Roy Keane to lead the side. In the campign he scared them all out of their wits and the his team mates revelled on that.

We simply don't have a strong minded leader from midfield up.

[stojkovic]

And thats the reason we won't qualify for the next WC regardless of a new manager.

No player like Roy Keane to lead the side. In the campign he scared them all out of their wits and the his team mates revelled on that.

We simply don't have a strong minded leader from midfield up.

Robbie could sing to them.

Did you see him riding Berbatov after the whistle on Sunday.

Will he stick the boot in, in Sofia ?

I still think we are good enough to make the play-offs, its pot luck after that.

[jmurphyc]

And thats the reason we won't qualify for the next WC regardless of a new manager.

No player like Roy Keane to lead the side. In the campign he scared them all out of their wits and the his team mates revelled on that.

We simply don't have a strong minded leader from midfield up.

I agree that we in many games in the last campaign we were desperately lacking a leader, particularly in the middle of the park, but we have a better manager now than we did back then (not having a go at McCarthy, but Trapattoni is a different class) and this group should be easier than that one. The weaker teams in this group are stronger, but Holland and Portugal are a much better pair than Italy and Bulgaria.