The Maze

[sonofstan]

Leaving aside all the historical baggage, what are your views on the plan to build a stadium at the Maze? if nothing else, if I'd been used to going to games at Windsor, I'd be less than enthusiastic about such a trek out of Belfast (though I guess it'll be a lot easier for those travelling from elsewhere)

[Steve Bruce]

Apart from the baggage that is refered to other reasons why I am against the maze is because

1) It is going to cost 240million(current projection) and will probably end up costing closer to £300 million. 40 Million would bring Windsor Park up to a good standard international standard.
2) There are no bars, restuarents or hotels near the place.
3) This place is going to be a big huge white elephant. When Northern Ireland are doing poor again(under Worthless that is a great possibility) and our crowds shrink to 4-6000, the crowd would be lost in this 36,000 seater venue.
4) This ‘national’ stadium is going to be a multi-use stadium. That means the pitch will be designed to suit GAA. So when Northern Ireland play on the pitch, the crowd will be miles away from the play. One of Northern Irelands strengths is the atmosphere generated by our support.
5) This ground is going to be a generic looking stadium, with no character at all. The famous noise generated by Northern Ireland fans could be diluted big time.

Now this is just a few things off the top of my head. And no doubt some one will tell me to wise up. But that is my opinion and believe it or not, there are many people with similar opinion to me.

[sonofstan]

Instinctively I'd agree with all of that, Steve; it breaks my heart when i think of how a small fraction of what is spent rebuilding Lansdowne could have saved Dalymount as an international stadium, and I would completely sympathise with a desire not to see Windsor disintegrate in the same way. I also hate out of town stadia - Flancare Park, I'm looking at you - football grounds should rise from the terraced streets around them like great ships is my entirely romantic and impractical view. And, whilst i haven't been at a game in Croke Park, it looks awful on Telly, and a similar arrangement at the Maze would have the same effect.

However...... is there any substance at all in the idea that a 'neutral' space would serve the interests of NI football better in the long run? for better or worse, Windsor is associated with a particular tradition and identity, and its a place where any possible NI supporters from outside that tradition are liable to feel alienated; would somewhere else - even a soulless hypermarket miles away - help, in the long run, to break that hold?

[Mr_Parker]

Apart from the baggage that is refered to other reasons why I am against the maze is because

1) It is going to cost 240million(current projection) and will probably end up costing closer to £300 million. 40 Million would bring Windsor Park up to a good standard international standard.
2) There are no bars, restuarents or hotels near the place.
3) This place is going to be a big huge white elephant. When Northern Ireland are doing poor again(under Worthless that is a great possibility) and our crowds shrink to 4-6000, the crowd would be lost in this 36,000 seater venue.
4) This ‘national’ stadium is going to be a multi-use stadium. That means the pitch will be designed to suit GAA. So when Northern Ireland play on the pitch, the crowd will be miles away from the play. One of Northern Irelands strengths is the atmosphere generated by our support.
5) This ground is going to be a generic looking stadium, with no character at all. The famous noise generated by Northern Ireland fans could be diluted big time.

Now this is just a few things off the top of my head. And no doubt some one will tell me to wise up. But that is my opinion and believe it or not, there are many people with similar opinion to me.

Wise up. :)

1. Stadium costs are half that. Any balance is made up from infrastructure requirements and such outlay would be required on any stadium development. Poots has also indicated that "those figures were theoretical and stated he was confident the project could be delivered for much less." As for Windsor Park, do Linfield actually want to do what you suggest?

2. Such facilities will be developed as part of the project. The hotel reference is not relevant as Belfast doesn't even have enough bedspaces at the moment.

3. So what size are you suggesting Windsor be redeveloped to?

4. The distance from the pitch would be no different from what it currently is from the South Stand at Windsor.

5. How do you know it would be generic as no plans have been submitted? If Windsor Park is "character" then I think you need to get out and see a few morre stadiums....

[EalingGreen]

1. Stadium costs are half that. Any balance is made up from infrastructure requirements and such outlay would be required on any stadium development. Poots has also indicated that "those figures were theoretical and stated he was confident the project could be delivered for much less." As for Windsor Park, do Linfield actually want to do what you suggest?


No, stadium construction costs are half that i.e £126m. As I understand it, these costs are going to be borne by private developers, in return for access to the site for other pruposes (industrial, retail, housing etc). Private developers are not going to put up the money to build a stadium unless they can be persuaded that the linked development rights are worth AT LEAST that amount (otherwise there would be no potential for profit). Therefore, the Taxpayer is foregoing a site which could otherwise be sold for £126m+. On top of that, the Government is pledging to spend another £114m of taxpayers money to provide necessary infrastucture (transport, roads, etc).
Therefore, the true cost to the taxpayer of this proposal is £240m Stg. And that is for a medium sized stadium, in the middle of a field in the country. All of which comes before the estimated operating cost to the taxpayer for the first four years alone of another £37m! Plus any overruns in the infrastructure. This is an absolutely insane amount for a stadium which none of the three sports really needs or wants.
Why not forget the stadium and auction the site for development to the highest bidder, on condition that the successful bidder builds the infrastructure himself? That way, all the risk falls upon the developers, and none on the Government.
Meanwhile, the Government could take the £37million and divide it pro rata between the three sports to use as each thinks best for itself. Rugby could develop Ravenhill etc, the GAA Casement (or wherever) and the IFA could use their share either to fund the redevelopment of Windsor, or in conjunction with BCC, help secure the best of the two or three privately-funded stadia which have been mooted for Belfast.

P.S. Does anyone in his right mind really believe that such a project will come in at less than forecast? The forecast itself has more than doubled since this scheme was first proposed!



2. Such facilities will be developed as part of the project. The hotel reference is not relevant as Belfast doesn't even have enough bedspaces at the moment.


Even with the Government's own optimistic estimate, there will only be 23 events per year. How is it going to be economic to build ancilliary facilities, other than a few dreary takeaways, a couple of "theme" bars and a Travellodge etc? Remember, this is a former prison site, itself built on the site of a former airfield. Sites for prisons and airfields are chosen precisely because they are away from everything else. As I understand it, the Maze is three miles from Lisburn and nearly two miles from the nearest Railway line (no station, not even a halt, btw). Lisburn doesn't even have a hotel ffs! All the roads around the Maze are farm roads i.e. little better than single lane in places. The only feasible access will be down one single spur, as yet unbuilt, from the M1 (itself only two lanes in each direction), along which 95% of the traffic will have to travel. (There are neither plans nor budget for any Rail link, btw).
Therefore, for a midweek game, hoping to attract, say, 30k fans, this will mean maybe 10k vehicles all converging on the one exit of a dual carriageway to get to the same destination. At the same time as the Belfast rush-hour is using Belfast's main artery to/from the South and West. Maybe in winter, when it's dark and wet. And that's only getting to the game.
Afterwards, those self-same 10-15k vehilces will all be starting up as soon as the final whistle goes, since there will be absolutely sod-all reason for hanging around an empty stadium, in an empty industrial park, surrounded by fields. Madness.



3. So what size are you suggesting Windsor be redeveloped to?


Windsor could easily and cheaply be redeveloped to a capacity of 20-25k, which is what most fans think is adequate. (My grandfather was once part of a 70k crowd at Windsor, btw, though they really crammed them in in those days!) Myself, I'd go for bigger (30-35k) in a new stadium somewhere in Belfast. Either is preferable to the Maze (imo)



4. The distance from the pitch would be no different from what it currently is from the South Stand at Windsor.


Only because the paddock in front of the SS is closed to standing fans. Knock down the SS and re-build close to the pitch. There should be more than adequate space for a 6-8k seater stand. (Btw, the SS is only one stand - both the North and the Kop are quite close enough. At the Maze, all four stands will be very distant - esp in the corners)



5. How do you know it would be generic as no plans have been submitted? If Windsor Park is "character" then I think you need to get out and see a few morre stadiums....

I don't know how many stadia I've visited (over 80 in GB alone), but it's well into 3 figures, covering several sports, in four continents. It is quite clear that unless designing an iconic venue (e.g. Beijing Olympics), for reasons of cost, engineering constraints, logistics, sightlines and comfort and safety, all modern stadia fall into one of two categories. Small to medium are often "shoebox"-style i.e. four rectangular stands around a pitch. Medium to large stadia are usually "wraparound" bowls. You can incorporate all the fancy Arches (Wembley) or cladding (Munich) yopu like, but they are increasingly becoming entirely homogenised - like the fans, as it happens. This accounts for the loss of atmosphere, even at redeveloped traditional stadia, like Old Trafford.
I don't know about GAA, but I absolutely guarantee that if/when the Maze is ever built, recreating the atmosphere of the Windsor Roar won't even feature in the build spec. :(

P.S. I'm no Linfield fan, or even of Windsor Park (I'd prefer new in Belfast), but as someone who's seen sport in all sorts of places, I can't remember anything better than the second half of that Saturday night last November when 14k GAWA sounded like 44k, as we roared the lads to victory against Denmark from a goal down. Priceless.

[Steve Bruce]

Wise up. :)

1. Stadium costs are half that. Any balance is made up from infrastructure requirements and such outlay would be required on any stadium development. Poots has also indicated that "those figures were theoretical and stated he was confident the project could be delivered for much less." As for Windsor Park, do Linfield actually want to do what you suggest?

2. Such facilities will be developed as part of the project. The hotel reference is not relevant as Belfast doesn't even have enough bedspaces at the moment.

3. So what size are you suggesting Windsor be redeveloped to?

4. The distance from the pitch would be no different from what it currently is from the South Stand at Windsor.

5. How do you know it would be generic as no plans have been submitted? If Windsor Park is "character" then I think you need to get out and see a few morre stadiums....

And you believe what Poots says? :eek:

[Steve Bruce]

No, stadium construction costs are half that i.e £126m. As I understand it, these costs are going to be borne by private developers, in return for access to the site for other pruposes (industrial, retail, housing etc). Private developers are not going to put up the money to build a stadium unless they can be persuaded that the linked development rights are worth AT LEAST that amount (otherwise there would be no potential for profit). Therefore, the Taxpayer is foregoing a site which could otherwise be sold for £126m+. On top of that, the Government is pledging to spend another £114m of taxpayers money to provide necessary infrastucture (transport, roads, etc).
Therefore, the true cost to the taxpayer of this proposal is £240m Stg. And that is for a medium sized stadium, in the middle of a field in the country. All of which comes before the estimated operating cost to the taxpayer for the first four years alone of another £37m! Plus any overruns in the infrastructure. This is an absolutely insane amount for a stadium which none of the three sports really needs or wants.
Why not forget the stadium and auction the site for development to the highest bidder, on condition that the successful bidder builds the infrastructure himself? That way, all the risk falls upon the developers, and none on the Government.
Meanwhile, the Government could take the £37million and divide it pro rata between the three sports to use as each thinks best for itself. Rugby could develop Ravenhill etc, the GAA Casement (or wherever) and the IFA could use their share either to fund the redevelopment of Windsor, or in conjunction with BCC, help secure the best of the two or three privately-funded stadia which have been mooted for Belfast.

P.S. Does anyone in his right mind really believe that such a project will come in at less than forecast? The forecast itself has more than doubled since this scheme was first proposed!



Even with the Government's own optimistic estimate, there will only be 23 events per year. How is it going to be economic to build ancilliary facilities, other than a few dreary takeaways, a couple of "theme" bars and a Travellodge etc? Remember, this is a former prison site, itself built on the site of a former airfield. Sites for prisons and airfields are chosen precisely because they are away from everything else. As I understand it, the Maze is three miles from Lisburn and nearly two miles from the nearest Railway line (no station, not even a halt, btw). Lisburn doesn't even have a hotel ffs! All the roads around the Maze are farm roads i.e. little better than single lane in places. The only feasible access will be down one single spur, as yet unbuilt, from the M1 (itself only two lanes in each direction), along which 95% of the traffic will have to travel. (There are neither plans nor budget for any Rail link, btw).
Therefore, for a midweek game, hoping to attract, say, 30k fans, this will mean maybe 10k vehicles all converging on the one exit of a dual carriageway to get to the same destination. At the same time as the Belfast rush-hour is using Belfast's main artery to/from the South and West. Maybe in winter, when it's dark and wet. And that's only getting to the game.
Afterwards, those self-same 10-15k vehilces will all be starting up as soon as the final whistle goes, since there will be absolutely sod-all reason for hanging around an empty stadium, in an empty industrial park, surrounded by fields. Madness.



Windsor could easily and cheaply be redeveloped to a capacity of 20-25k, which is what most fans think is adequate. (My grandfather was once part of a 70k crowd at Windsor, btw, though they really crammed them in in those days!) Myself, I'd go for bigger (30-35k) in a new stadium somewhere in Belfast. Either is preferable to the Maze (imo)



Only because the paddock in front of the SS is closed to standing fans. Knock down the SS and re-build close to the pitch. There should be more than adequate space for a 6-8k seater stand. (Btw, the SS is only one stand - both the North and the Kop are quite close enough. At the Maze, all four stands will be very distant - esp in the corners)



I don't know how many stadia I've visited (over 80 in GB alone), but it's well into 3 figures, covering several sports, in four continents. It is quite clear that unless designing an iconic venue (e.g. Beijing Olympics), for reasons of cost, engineering constraints, logistics, sightlines and comfort and safety, all modern stadia fall into one of two categories. Small to medium are often "shoebox"-style i.e. four rectangular stands around a pitch. Medium to large stadia are usually "wraparound" bowls. You can incorporate all the fancy Arches (Wembley) or cladding (Munich) yopu like, but they are increasingly becoming entirely homogenised - like the fans, as it happens. This accounts for the loss of atmosphere, even at redeveloped traditional stadia, like Old Trafford.
I don't know about GAA, but I absolutely guarantee that if/when the Maze is ever built, recreating the atmosphere of the Windsor Roar won't even feature in the build spec. :(

P.S. I'm no Linfield fan, or even of Windsor Park (I'd prefer new in Belfast), but as someone who's seen sport in all sorts of places, I can't remember anything better than the second half of that Saturday night last November when 14k GAWA sounded like 44k, as we roared the lads to victory against Denmark from a goal down. Priceless.

That's what i would have said, well near enough;)

[AnnaghRed]

It will be a total disaster, a big, soul-less bowl in the arsehole of nowhere.

Spend the money on doing up Windsor [20000], Casement & Ravenhill.

Have any polls been taken amongst those who actually attend games at any of the three venues?

[Buller]

I agree. Do up winsor park with another two new stands and you have a 25k stadium - decent capacity for NI, close to the pitch, gaah-free, and at a fraction of the cost. There is loads of room for expansion.

[Blanchflower]

Have any polls been taken amongst those who actually attend games at any of the three venues?

Football - yes - overwhelming opposition to the Maze
Rugby - yes- overwhelming opposition to the Maze
GAA - no

[geysir]

It will be a total disaster, a big, soul-less bowl in the arsehole of nowhere.
Spend the money on doing up Windsor [20000], Casement & Ravenhill.
Have any polls been taken amongst those who actually attend games at any of the three venues?
I haven't seen any GAA supporter poll. In general GAA membership views are reflected by the Central Council. The Ulster Council are positive to the Maze location.
It is a compromise - but acceptable.
The decision has been taken for a multi sports stadium, that horse has already bolted. 38,0000 seats for the GAA is minimum.

[Steve Bruce]

That is some minimum, it’s more than 4 times bigger than croke :D

[geysir]

Ulster Ásses are massive :)

[Gather round]

I haven't seen any GAA supporter poll. In general GAA membership views are reflected by the Central Council. The Ulster Council are positive to the Maze location

Do you mean that the GAA have already polled supporters and the Council use the results as a basis for policy? Or, alternatively, is the membership view whatever the Council decides? :)


The decision has been taken for a multi sports stadium, that horse has already bolted

The decision is quite likely to be quietly dropped given the opposition from those intended to use the stadium (and pay the running costs).


38,000 seats for the GAA is minimum

Why? The GAA manages with only a fraction of that at every stadium in Ireland other than Croke. Put the seats in Casement and Clones, it'll be much cheaper and far more sensible.

[geysir]

Do you mean that the GAA have already polled supporters and the Council use the results as a basis for policy? Or, alternatively, is the membership view whatever the Council decides? :)
The decision is quite likely to be quietly dropped given the opposition from those intended to use the stadium (and pay the running costs).
The GAA are the major players in this project and support wise they promise to deliver 150,000 in 4 games, 20% more than the other 2 sports combined promise.
The key here to the support for the project is that the 3 sporting bodies agree.
Each sporting body has taken its decision. If there was any sign of a rumble in the GAA, a motion would be passed at local level which trickles it's way to the top and HAS to be debated. Is there any evidence that the IFA or UR are going to reverse their position?


Why? The GAA manages with only a fraction of that at every stadium in Ireland other than Croke. Put the seats in Casement and Clones, it'll be much cheaper and far more sensible.
The GAA have plans for covered 35 - 40K seats in every province. Croker is already there (the Dub fans, for reasons of hygiene, are still kept on open air terraces).
Probably Pairc Ui Caomh in Cork - Semple in Tipp is also being developed
But no problem, let the Brit taxpayers give the GAA 40m and they can develop Clones but Casement can rot.
Clones is in Ulster, so why not? ;)
Spectator count in 2005 for Ulster GAA (9 counties), over 530,000 attending some 16 championship games. With 38,000 covered seats, some games would be subscribed twice over.
For some reasons, I don't know why, the political decision has been taken for a multi sports stadium, the caveat on the whole project is multi sport, the 3 sporting bodies agree, that horse has bolted.
I agree with much of what EG wrote :eek:
If I were an OWC fan (armageddon time), Belfast and 25,000 would do rightly. It could also be a case of hysterical OWC fans hopping up and down screaming NO.

[Gather round]

The GAA are the major players in this project and support wise they promise to deliver 150,000 in 4 games, 20% more than the other 2 sports combined promise

I'd say that the unholy (and possibly short-lived) love-in between DUP and SF is the major player. Before they started daydreaming about a vanity project commemorating the struggle, the GAA didn't show much interest in a Northern Ireland mega-stadium.

If anything, the IFA are seen as having overstated likely crowds if we play at Maze. So agreed, GAA crowds might well be larger. If it ever gets built...

The key here to the support for the project is that the 3 sporting bodies agree

No, the key is that rather than the public acceptance or apathy which they may have expected, IFA and UR have faced a well-organised and persuasive opposition. The IFA have only mastered distributing 14,000 tickets in the last two or three years. They won't be much use in building a major infrastructure project. This is Northern Ireland, not the Yangtse valley: we've been arguing about rebuilding the trams since the 1980s, still nothing has happened.

Each sporting body has taken its decision. If there was any sign of a rumble in the GAA, a motion would be passed at local level which trickles it's way to the top and HAS to be debated

Aren't you avoiding the question? The GAA may be quite relaxed for a white elephant to open in a field miles from Lisburn. They aren't paying directly, they don't need it for big matches. If they put on secondary games and the fans don't bother to turn up, I very much doubt there'll be any penalty clause for them to worry about.

Is there any evidence that the IFA or UR are going to reverse their position?

The IFA will go with the flow- they're a weak organisation with a clearly short-term CEO able to do little more than bicker with local amateur (in both senses) representatives. The fans' lobby is largely by-passing them, directed instead at Poots, other politicians etc.

But no problem, let the Brit taxpayers give the GAA 40m and they can develop Clones but Casement can rot. Clones is in Ulster, so why not?

I'd have no problem ultimately with the Brits giving the GAA a no-strings grant to spent on Clones. It's a facility for (largely) NI residents who pay British taxes, after all. Why scrap Casement?

Spectator count in 2005 for Ulster GAA (9 counties), over 530,000 attending some 16 championship games. With 38,000 covered seats, some games would be subscribed twice over

Maybe. I know many GAA county grounds are in smaller towns, but I think you may be underestimating the basic facilities (easy access, food and drink) that fans would expect.

For some reasons, I don't know why, the political decision has been taken for a multi sports stadium

I think it's straightforwardly a vanity project, although of course there may be some corrupt pork-barrel building contract politics involved.

that horse has bolted...I agree with much of what EG wrote

I read EG's excellent summary as concluding that it HASN'T bolted.

It could also be a case of hysterical OWC fans hopping up and down screaming NO

Yawn. It isn't. The argument for a city stadium and opposing a white elephant is detailed, well-reasoned and clearly has mass support.

[geysir]

I'd say that the unholy (and possibly short-lived) love-in between DUP and SF is the major player. Before they started daydreaming about a vanity project commemorating the struggle, the GAA didn't show much interest in a Northern Ireland mega-stadium.
I dont´t know what you are alluding to here.
Don't mix up the GAA keeping a low profile with taking no interest.
Public statements of support have been concise, uniquivical and made at the appropriate time.


Aren't you avoiding the question? The GAA may be quite relaxed for a white elephant to open in a field miles from Lisburn. They aren't paying directly, they don't need it for big matches. If they put on secondary games and the fans don't bother to turn up, I very much doubt there'll be any penalty clause for them to worry about.
What I have said is the Ulster Council position on the project reflects the membership.
I have already replied to you on the 'They don´t need it for big matches', What you think the GAA need and what the GAA actually want
are 2 different things.

Maybe. I know many GAA county grounds are in smaller towns, but I think you may be underestimating the basic facilities (easy access, food and drink) that fans would expect.
You obviously haven´t tried to get into Clones on big match day.
Individual grants to the sporting bodies are anyway not on the agenda.
Car and coach is the preferred option of travel. Link road from the Maze to the M1 will do the job. Whatever attraction Clones has for atmosphere, food and drink will be more than compensated for in an all seater stadium.


I read EG's excellent summary as concluding that it HASN'T bolted.
EG did not at all discuss that the political decision has or hasn't been taken to build the facility at the Maze. However it is another thing to actually have the plan realized.
EG made a good argument against the current proposal.
EG´s conclusion was
'I don't know about GAA, but I absolutely guarantee that if/when the Maze is ever built, recreating the atmosphere of the Windsor Roar won't even feature in the build spec'.


Yawn. It isn't. The argument for a city stadium and opposing a white elephant is detailed, well-reasoned and clearly has mass support.
Not from the GAA at any level of membership.
And the mass support of opposition has not made any inroads into the UR or the IFA.

[Blanchflower]

Car and coach is the preferred option of travel. Link road from the Maze to the M1 will do the job.

How will a single link road do the job of facilitating access for supposedly 38,500 people at one time?

[Mr_Parker]

How will a single link road do the job of facilitating access for supposedly 38,500 people at one time?

The Maze proposal shows 3 or 4 access roads. How many are there at this latest alternative?

[EalingGreen]

The Maze proposal shows 3 or 4 access roads.

Eh? Afaik, the nearest road which isn't a country lane or farm access track is the M1, which is over a mile from the site, and only has two lanes in each direction, despite serving as Belfast's main artery to the West (and a major exit route towards Dublin and the South).

Remember, the Maze Prison is on the site of an old WWII Airfield, built in the middle of farmland. (Sites for Prisons and Airfields are often chosen for their inaccessibility, rather than their accessibility! Such land is also invariably cheap as a consequence)

There isn't a railway line anywhere near, nor no plans or funds to build one. As for road access, the Roads Dept has never as yet allocated any of its already hugely overstretched budget to additional expenditure for access to the Maze.

And assuming anyone ever else got round to funding it, the only feasible access would be via a spur road from ther M1. With crowds of up to 35k for football, this must mean a minimum of 10k cars, all approaching from one of two directions (though the majority from the East) at the same time, and all hoping to arrive at pretty much the same time.

Afterwards, since there will be sod all to see/do on what is basically an industrial site, all will be starting up and hoping to depart at exactly the same time, along exactly the same spur road, in order to access one of two routes (E or W on the M1).

This alone is a recipe for disaster. But factor in midweek games in winter i.e. bad weather and after dark. Then consider that these will clash with the usual Belfast rush-hour exiting the city at exactly the same time. Then add e.g. an accident on the carriageway, or a security alert.

Trust me, whilst the diehards may still put up with this, the more casual/less committed fans will very soon get fed up with it, especially after they suffer their first couple of losses in what is liable to be a soulless, half-empty concrete bowl, with sightlines designed to suit GAA games.

No thanks.

[Blanchflower]

The Maze proposal shows 3 or 4 access roads. How many are there at this latest alternative?

Yeah, like one road in, one out, and a country lane.:)

[Mr_Parker]

Eh? Afaik, the nearest road which isn't a country lane or farm access track is the M1, which is over a mile from the site, and only has two lanes in each direction, despite serving as Belfast's main artery to the West (and a major exit route towards Dublin and the South).

Remember, the Maze Prison is on the site of an old WWII Airfield, built in the middle of farmland. (Sites for Prisons and Airfields are often chosen for their inaccessibility, rather than their accessibility! Such land is also invariably cheap as a consequence)

There isn't a railway line anywhere near, nor no plans or funds to build one. As for road access, the Roads Dept has never as yet allocated any of its already hugely overstretched budget to additional expenditure for access to the Maze.

And assuming anyone ever else got round to funding it, the only feasible access would be via a spur road from ther M1. With crowds of up to 35k for football, this must mean a minimum of 10k cars, all approaching from one of two directions (though the majority from the East) at the same time, and all hoping to arrive at pretty much the same time.

Afterwards, since there will be sod all to see/do on what is basically an industrial site, all will be starting up and hoping to depart at exactly the same time, along exactly the same spur road, in order to access one of two routes (E or W on the M1).

This alone is a recipe for disaster. But factor in midweek games in winter i.e. bad weather and after dark. Then consider that these will clash with the usual Belfast rush-hour exiting the city at exactly the same time. Then add e.g. an accident on the carriageway, or a security alert.

Trust me, whilst the diehards may still put up with this, the more casual/less committed fans will very soon get fed up with it, especially after they suffer their first couple of losses in what is liable to be a soulless, half-empty concrete bowl, with sightlines designed to suit GAA games.

No thanks.

And the alternative?

[EalingGreen]

And the alternative?

Plan for low crowds, once punters realise how unattractive and unaccessible the stadium is.

Or build it somewhere else (and save a fortune, into the bargain)

[Mr_Parker]

Plan for low crowds, once punters realise how unattractive and unaccessible the stadium is.

Or build it somewhere else (and save a fortune, into the bargain)

The alternative I was refering to was the Blanchflower which seems to be the option going to be rolled out if the Maze gets a no.

[EalingGreen]

The alternative I was refering to was the Blanchflower which seems to be the option going to be rolled out if the Maze gets a no.

I wouldn't be so certain that the Blanchflower will be football's fallback should the Maze get scrapped. Whilst there are some attractions, there are also drawbacks.

If the Maze were to get binned, this might be the encouragement Belfast City Council need to get their finger from their bum and come up with something better again.

As it happens, there are very few leading DUP figures - Dodds aside - who have any interest in football, so until now the party has been content to leave it to those with a vested interest in favour of the Maze (Poots, Donaldson) to make the running.

However, following recent developments (Paisley stepping down, IPJ, Dromore By-Election etc), my guess is that the DUP is suddenly fearing for its traditional support. Therefore, they have gone cold on the Maze essentially for political, rather than footballing or financial, reasons.

Therefore, not knowing much about football, they seized upon the Blanchflower Stadium since it is in East Belfast and the IFA already had plans for it (albeit much more modest). As a bonus, it could also suit the Glens.

In any case, even if the Maze were scrapped today, NI could carry on for another while at Windsor, which would allow time for a more measured search for a Belfast site. Indeed, we might even see Ormeau Park back in the running, since the chief obstacle to that was Paisley himself (too close to his Martyrs Memorial Church!), but he's now Yesterday's (Big) Man, as we all know!

Anyhow, wherever we end up, I can't think of many places in Belfast that wouldn't be infinitely better for NI football than the Maze. And I say that as a country boy, born and bred!

[Steve Bruce]

I think Windsor Park will be redeveloped now. Just have that feeling, based on nothing solid.

I do remember however saying on the old Irish League forums to Jim Gracey that the Maze stadium will never happen and in 10 years time Northern Ireland will still be talking about a new stadium away from Windsor.

[old git]

Yeah, like one road in, one out, and a country lane.:)

a lot of prisioners seemed to have no problem geting quick access out of it over the years :D:D:

[Block G Raptor]

A bit off topic I know but wasn't there talk of turning H3 into a museum I'm assuming this Idea will be scrapped if the stadium goes ahead

[pól-dcfc]

A bit off topic I know but wasn't there talk of turning H3 into a museum I'm assuming this Idea will be scrapped if the stadium goes ahead

I think this is one of the major bones of contention that has seen the proposed stadium put on the backburner.

[Not Brazil]

I think this is one of the major bones of contention that has seen the proposed stadium put on the backburner.

Not one of the major "bones of contention" of the Amalgamation Of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs in their objections to The Maze site.

Certainly, a "bone of contention" amongst many individuals, who would feel that the building of a new sports stadium should not be inextricably linked to the horrors of our past "troubles".

[old git]

Not one of the major "bones of contention" of the Amalgamation Of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs in their objections to The Maze site.

Certainly, a "bone of contention" amongst many individuals, who would feel that the building of a new sports stadium should not be inextricably linked to the horrors of our past "troubles".

should we not all move on from horrors of our past troubles !!
probally main reason not to many catholic supporters would travel to watch norn ireland at windsor park over the years was down to the horrors of our past troubles and unfortunatly were windsor park was situated :ball:

[David]

If Northern Ireland were to play their home games on the Falls Road you would still not get a substantial number of Catholic supporters. They are not going to support a country that they do not feel should exist.

[old git]

If Northern Ireland were to play their home games on the Falls Road you would still not get a substantial number of Catholic supporters. They are not going to support a country that they do not feel should exist.

fair point but i am sure there must be genuine fans out there who would go along and support :ball:

[Block G Raptor]

fair point but i am sure there must be genuine fans out there who would go along and support :ball:

What do you mean "Genuine fans" have to put football before their national Identity otherwise they can't consider them selves genuine ?
that post makes no sense at all.

[old git]

What do you mean "Genuine fans" have to put football before their national Identity otherwise they can't consider them selves genuine ?
that post makes no sense at all.

let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:

[pól-dcfc]

let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:

No, the reason Catholic fans won't support N Ireland is because we don't see it as at all representative of us. And it never will be. The majority of Catholics are Nationalists, and Nationalists don't believe that there should be a state called Norther Ireland. We identify with the Republic, which is turning out to be a All-Ireland team anyway.

[EalingGreen]

probally main reason not to many catholic supporters would travel to watch norn ireland at windsor park over the years was down to the horrors of our past troubles and unfortunatly were windsor park was situated :ball:

On the simple point about where Windsor is situated, it never seemed to deter fans who are Catholic/Nationalist from attending in large numbers when the likes of Man U played prestige friendlies there.

Or, indeed, fans of clubs with predominantly Catholic/Nat support when playing Linfield, for that matter.

Curious, that. :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

No, the reason Catholic fans won't support N Ireland is because we don't see it as at all representative of us. And it never will be. The majority of Catholics are Nationalists, and Nationalists don't believe that there should be a state called Norther Ireland. We identify with the Republic, which is turning out to be a All-Ireland team anyway.

I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.

But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.

Of course, although that means over 1,000 at every game, I accept that is still a very small percentage. However, the Report was from several years ago, when comditions were so much worse, both in football in particular, and in NI generally.

Now that there has been so much improvements (football and NI), there is lots of evidence of a return to the situation of earlier, pre-Troubles days, when the situation was much different. There is real demand for match tickets currently, which is being frustrated by capacity limitations at Windsor.
I have little doubt that at least some of that demand is coming from RC/Nats, so that if we did have a modern stadium, in the optimum location, that the latent, residual goodwill from that community of former days could be revitalised.

It is there today to an extent, it was there even during the bad old days of the 1980's, when at least our team was giving everyone something to cheer about and it was certainly there before The Troubles were even heard about.

On which last point, I recently came across a piece by NI Legend Bertie Peacock, who was also a star for Celtic at the time, and not one jot less popular in NI for it. Speaking of sectarianism etc in football at the time of the Lennon incident, his simple comment was:
''It certainly didn't go on in my day, I can tell you that.''

I live for the day when people from NI will decline to support the NI team for no other reason than that we're rubbish. It was the case before now, it can be the case in future.

[David]

let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:


Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

[Krstic]

Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

I noticed EalingGreen mention the abuse Pat Jennings got whilst playing for NI in another thread.
Why was he abused, do Northern Ireland fans not like Spurs or Arsenal as well as the above mentioned???

[David]

I noticed EalingGreen mention the abuse Pat Jennings got whilst playing for NI in another thread.
Why was he abused, do Northern Ireland fans not like Spurs or Arsenal as well as the above mentioned???

Personally never recall big Pat getting abuse, recall his name being sung on the Kop. He is one of my favourite all time Northern Ireland players.

[lofty9]

I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.
But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.



Here you go.

http://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports/sugdenharvie/sugdenharvie95-7.htm


A survey carried out in 1991 showed that when asked to place the 5 national sides from the British Isles in order of preference, 91 % of Catholic respondents placed the Republic of Ireland and 88% of Protestant respondents placed Northern Ireland first. 79% of Catholic respondents against 35% of Protestant respondents supported an all-Irish team. 76% of Catholic respondents claimed to have had more satisfaction from the achievements of the Republic in the 1990 World Cup compared to Northern Ireland’s success in 1982, while 69% of Protestants stated that they had taken more satisfaction from the latter (12).However the same evidence suggests that the polarisation of attitudes is by no means complete. 20% of Protestant respondents selected the Republic and 54% of Catholic respondents chose Northern Ireland as second preferences amongst the five ‘nations’. 23% of Protestants and 18% of Catholics included in the survey claimed to have obtained equal satisfaction from the achievements of the Republic of Ireland in the 1990 World Cup and Northern Ireland eight years earlier. This suggests that when no zero-sum choice has to be made fairly sizeable elements in both communities may not be averse to cheering on either Ireland especially on a world stage. Having said this, when the two Irish soccer nations are placed in direct, head-to-head confrontation with one another, as has happened frequently over recent years, the loyalties of supporters are more closely determined than ever by their community background and political affiliations.

[EalingGreen]

Here you go.

http://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports/sugdenharvie/sugdenharvie95-7.htm

Thanks, Lofty. It might be in there somewhere, or it may be a different Report, but I was referring specifically to a survey of the religious make up of fans who actually attended NI internationals at Windsor Park. I'm sure the figure was 8%.

P.S. I recall from having read this Report previously, that there a number of (worrying) inaccuracies contained in it. I note from briefly scanning it this time, for instance, that they repeat the Canard that Windsor Park (opened in 1905) was named after the British Royal Family (changed their name to Windsor in 1917).

[EalingGreen]

Personally never recall big Pat getting abuse, recall his name being sung on the Kop. He is one of my favourite all time Northern Ireland players.

Never heard it myself, either, though I didn't often stand on the Kop in the early days (i.e. before he attained legend status).

Incidentally, I recently came across an interview with PJ where he reminisced about how much he enjoyed it when their father used to take him and his older brother Brian (ex-IL player) as kids to Windsor to watch NI* play

* - I imagine they were commonly called "Ireland" by the fans in those days

[pól-dcfc]

I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.

But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.

Of course, although that means over 1,000 at every game, I accept that is still a very small percentage. However, the Report was from several years ago, when comditions were so much worse, both in football in particular, and in NI generally.

Now that there has been so much improvements (football and NI), there is lots of evidence of a return to the situation of earlier, pre-Troubles days, when the situation was much different. There is real demand for match tickets currently, which is being frustrated by capacity limitations at Windsor.
I have little doubt that at least some of that demand is coming from RC/Nats, so that if we did have a modern stadium, in the optimum location, that the latent, residual goodwill from that community of former days could be revitalised.

It is there today to an extent, it was there even during the bad old days of the 1980's, when at least our team was giving everyone something to cheer about and it was certainly there before The Troubles were even heard about.

On which last point, I recently came across a piece by NI Legend Bertie Peacock, who was also a star for Celtic at the time, and not one jot less popular in NI for it. Speaking of sectarianism etc in football at the time of the Lennon incident, his simple comment was:
''It certainly didn't go on in my day, I can tell you that.''

I live for the day when people from NI will decline to support the NI team for no other reason than that we're rubbish. It was the case before now, it can be the case in future.

Good post. Obviously having never attended a NI game I'd have less of an insight that yourself.

I reckon it would be interesting to find out about an East-West split in Catholic/Nationalist attitudes to the NI team. From my own experience, Catholics from around the Belfast suburbs are alot more open-minded when it comes to supporting NI, but in Derry I only know of one Catholic who would say that they supported NI.

[Mr_Parker]

Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

I stood on the Kop at Windsor and went to enough away games during enough NI games to hear it for myself and heard the sectarian bile given to NI players.

[Steve Bruce]

I stood on the Kop at Windsor and went to enough away games during enough NI games to hear it for myself and heard the sectarian bile given to NI players.

:rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

:rolleyes:

Insightful as usual.

[Mr_Parker]

:rolleyes:

Any particular piece of my comment that you wish to take issue with or have you just nothing worthwhile to add to the discussion....

[BleusAvantTout]

I know many Northern Ireland fans who come from a nationalist background but continue to support Northern Ireland.

Northern Catholics only changed their team when ROI appointed a British manager, Jack Charlton. Oh the irony......................!!! :D