2008 Licences

[Longfordian]

The scuttlebut suggests a five figure fine for late accounts.

[higgins]

So you're not alowed pay players into the hand ??

[OneRedArmy]

How can the FAI award a license conditional on something happening in the future?

I thought the process was clear that you submit your license application, a ruling is provided, if its negative it can be appealed to the first instance committee and so on with the bottom line being that all this takes place before the season starts so there is no room for doubt. If you don't comply you don't play in the division.

Not for the first time the FAI approach to enforcement of compliance is somewhat puzzling and inconsistent.

Surely there has been enough time to "provide further detail" on whatever issues have arisen? And if the FAI have levied a fine, surely that indicates prima facie non-compliance?

[redron]

How can the FAI award a license conditional on something happening in the future?

I thought the process was clear that you submit your license application, a ruling is provided, if its negative it can be appealed to the first instance committee and so on with the bottom line being that all this takes place before the season starts so there is no room for doubt. If you don't comply you don't play in the division.

Not for the first time the FAI approach to enforcement of compliance is somewhat puzzling and inconsistent.

Surely there has been enough time to "provide further detail" on whatever issues have arisen? And if the FAI have levied a fine, surely that indicates prima facie non-compliance?

No offence to you in particular, but a lot of posters here (and it was the same last season) rabbit on about the licensing system and the minimum criteria. But if anyone actually read the document they would see that there is LOTS of wiggle room. Some areas are critical, while many areas are allowed on condition that they are met within an agreed timeframe, with sanctions applicable (fines, points, or even relegation) at any stage in the process.

Answer is, there's no inconsistency with the licensing manual!
If you think the licensing procedure is too soft, well that's another matter.

Here's the link to the licansing manual:
http://www.fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2008.pdf
It's a PDF file, 1.34MB.

[Tis-smeee]

Ooooooooooooh RedRon Burned you bad

[Dodge]

If you don't sort that out it could be Kerrtains for the club before the season even starts...

Yoink for later use!

[HarpoJoyce]

No offence.......
Here's the link to the licansing manual:
http://www.fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2008.pdf
It's a PDF file, 1.34MB.

I'm with redron on this one, the no offence part and the onus on supporters.

As hopefully more supporters get attracted to games individually, they will ask the same individual questions. I believe, its up to regular supporters or those with a large interest in the game to give accurate information and try and reduce the bias in the answers.

The licensing process is our Taylor report*, but luckily its not as emotionally charged or having outside forces (Govt.) breathing down our necks. Its true the licensing process began as an initiative from UEFA setting the standard, however we have caught up to their standard and the sport is able to control and monitor its own future.

*[UK Govt. report into the Hillsborough diaster (1987) with recommendations on stadium design. More/all seating. British football was broke at the time and it was a hard road for them to get them where they are now.....em..Thank God for BSkyB]
very short report March 2002 (brim-full with info.)
The very excellent Norman Chester Centre of Leicester University, with a short afterword report on football accomodation and legislation.
http://www.le.ac.uk/footballresearch/resources/factsheets/fs2.html

[forza rovers]

Drogs have now met this condition and tickets will be on sale through Ticketmaster.how many tickets will the away fans be aloclated

[garyderry]

All ticket because Drogheda were allowing too many people into the ground and this went against the fire officers stadium regulation figure ?

A $hel$ fan giving out about crowd control and greed :p
now ur taking the **** :D

[Jerry The Saint]

A $hel$ fan giving out about crowd control and greed :p
now ur taking the **** :D

I preferred this comment


So you're not alowed pay players into the hand ??

:)

[higgins]

A $hel$ fan giving out about crowd control and greed :p
now ur taking the **** :D

giving out ???
It was a question

Shelbourne have their house in order, thank you for asking!
When we didn't do things by the book we got caught and we're still paying for it. If anything Shelbourne are a good example of how good the licence process can be and I wouldn't ever say we deserved less than what we got.

All I'm looking for is a fair system for everyone :)
Droghea were breaking the crowd restriction rules last season and I want to know if thats what brought about this all ticket rule ? If it is then I'd say fair play to the FAI as they've moved to stop another club gaining an advantage over the other 21 clubs. Not the 21 clubs fault Drogheda won't put money into their ground and instead pump it all into players.

[Celdrog]

how many tickets will the away fans be aloclatedDon;t worry the twenty of you will be accomodated:D

400 max for a big away support

[SeanDrog]

Droghea were breaking the crowd restriction rules last season .


Prove that statement

[garyderry]

Prove that statement

He cant know one can, hence why you have been asked to be all ticket this season.

[John83]

He cant know one can, hence why you have been asked to be all ticket this season.
What?

[micls]

What?

By having it all ticket through ticketmaster, they now will be able to prove if Drogs are leaving too many in, whereas they couldnt last year.

My interpretation of it anyway

[Magicme]

By having it all ticket through ticketmaster, they now will be able to prove if Drogs are leaving too many in, whereas they couldnt last year.

My interpretation of it anyway

What? They leave them there? For how long???

[micls]

What? They leave them there? For how long???

I think you missed the word 'in' :D

[higgins]

Ok, in my opinion drogheda were letting in more than they were allowed last season! Is that better ??? There were plenty of posts on foot about it too.

Anyway, I started off by asking a question. Nobody has answered it yet ???
Can you please explain why the FAI would want a club to have all their games as all ticket ?

[L37Ultra]

Can you please explain why the FAI would want a club to have all their games as all ticket ?


Because they were letting in more than they should have been but this year it will be controlled. ;)

[jebus]

Can you please explain why the FAI would want a club to have all their games as all ticket ?

To have concrete figures to go on for their licence criteria, rather than relying on clubs being 'honest' about their figures hopefully

[SeanDrog]

Last season the attendences figures permittable were set by the local fire officer, I would presume the club need some sort of safety statement etc to go with their application for a licence and he wanted more controls in place to ensure we stuck to these figures before giving a "sign off" - that would be my guess at least. Now your opinion may well be right regarding more being let in than allowed but as there is no proof of any sort it is then just conjecture.

You also said we are spending all our cash on players rather than on the ground. The attendence is capped because we have no entrance at one end of the home terrace - nothing we can do about that as it is boxed in. The club spent money on improving the walk ways, safety barriers and additonal gates allowing entry onto the pitch - so to state that no cash going into the ground was wrong.

Also as they are heavily involved in trying to get a new 10,000 all seater stadium off the ground and spending cash on this project (38000e alone was lodged with the planning application) - why would they invest heavily on Utd Park? (and no I have no update on the ground - I believe the council asked for further information and its being put together).

Best of luck next season imo the sooner the better shels are back in the Premier , I for one miss them.

[passerrby]

Dundalk got a Premier licence last year, no news from Oriel yet on the 08 licence though, wouldn't expect us to be in any (major) difficulties.

I heard that dundalk and athlone did not get a premier licence hard to believe. they both have good grounds, is it true?

[neutrino]

I heard that dundalk and athlone did not get a premier licence hard to believe. they both have good grounds, is it true?

there's alot more to licensing than good grounds. Altho surprised that Dundalk didnt get one (if true)

[Lim till i die]

I heard that dundalk and athlone did not get a premier licence hard to believe. they both have good grounds, is it true?

Athlones finances were hilariously mismanaged.

We're talking near Limerick levels of incompetence here.

Not sure about Dundalk, maybe someone realised their pitch is a disgrace??

[higgins]

The decision as to why you don't see the need to upgrade United Park is your own. You have plans, big wow!! While you remain in United Park and are happy to put peoples safety at risk you need to play by the rules the rest of us play by (yeah, I know a shels fan talking about rules, haha). I was just stating that the other 21 clubs are sticking to their max limits, as a Shels fan I can only pray we get half that!!

I don't have proof you let more in than allowed last season, that was just my opinion but it seems the FAI/Fire officer are also of the same opinion.

I would also imagine the money spent on upgrading United Park would have paid for itself by now in gate receipts ?
You're going to be in United Park for another year or two at best. If I was a fan I'd have major issues with putting money into the playing side of the club while supporters can't get tickets to get into a game!

What is the official limits for United Park by the way ?
They are stated in the licence report so there has to be some figure.

[OneRedArmy]

No offence to you in particular, but a lot of posters here (and it was the same last season) rabbit on about the licensing system and the minimum criteria. But if anyone actually read the document they would see that there is LOTS of wiggle room. Some areas are critical, while many areas are allowed on condition that they are met within an agreed timeframe, with sanctions applicable (fines, points, or even relegation) at any stage in the process.

Answer is, there's no inconsistency with the licensing manual!
If you think the licensing procedure is too soft, well that's another matter.

Here's the link to the licansing manual:
http://www.fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2008.pdf
It's a PDF file, 1.34MB.I've read the manuals from 2006, 2007 and 2008. IMHO there are plenty of inconsistencies in the document, but principly the followingL

"The withdrawal of a licence or imposition of a sanction is not mandatory and the FAI Licensing Committee will have discretion to exercise this power or not."

This effectively sets aside the whole manual and turns something that was intended to be an objective sanction (non-compliance equals non-participation) into something that is wholly subjective.

Having spent too much of my life designing and implementing compliance documentation this is patently ridiculous and non-transparent.

To Tismee, I look forward to your contributions....

[Lim till i die]

While you remain in United Park and are happy to put peoples safety at risk

Put people's safety at risk?!?!

Good Grief. :rolleyes:

It's a football ground not the knives, chemicals and fireworks factory.

And the Oscar for best melodramatic performance gos to higgins.......


If I was a fan I'd have major issues with putting money into the playing side of the club while supporters can't get tickets to get into a game!

Just aswell you follow the LoI then isn't it

[higgins]

Lim till I die, Droghedas actions will result in fans of other clubs not being able to get tickets to see their team play ?

If you're happy with that then fair enough.

[SeanDrog]

If anyones safety was at risk we wouldn't be allowed play there so its very disingenuous to be implying otherwise. Given all the attempted mud slinging towards shels over the years I would have expected more from a shels fan than to engage in the same type of tactic.

Last season the cap varied throughout the season on the permittable figure - moved up a more work was completed. It ranged from 1000 (at one point) to 1500 and tipped around 2000 (towards then end). I haven't heard the figure for this year - all depends if they have put in additonal measures - for our last 2 home games we had a crash barrier running the length of the home terrace (reason for 2000 ish attendence).

Actually the new ground is quite a big wow! and the home support are more than aware of this and for the time being (and it is the time being ) putting up with disruption.

And as I stated there is nothing the club can do about a second entrance on the home terrace side - it is boxed in with a private house and the GAA grounds. Pain in the arse but hopefully for us we will not be putting up with it much longer. But if the pain is having to prepurchase tickets then so be it (or buy a season ticket).

I have to say I do find it funny that you are letting our problems annoy you so much :D - if we meet shels at some point in a cup etc I doubt you will have an issue getting a ticket form the away support allocation.

On another point what type of attendences did you get last season in the first? (no jibe - just interested)

[Lim till i die]

Lim till I die, Droghedas actions will result in fans of other clubs not being able to get tickets to see their team play ?

But I thought it was all about the safety?? :rolleyes:

How many clubs will be affected by the cut in allocation to a piecemeal 400 :rolleyes:


If you're happy with that then fair enough

It doesn't affect me in the slightest*



*See that sentence. That counts for 90% of the league.

[SeanDrog]

LTID on the ball.

"something about nothing" is probably the best term to apply to Higgens attempts to whip up a people :p the boards are quite this weather and we need a scandal to get the blood going ;)

[Battery Rover]

I heard that dundalk and athlone did not get a premier licence hard to believe. they both have good grounds, is it true?

We failed to get an A license due to an issue with the press facilities and the lack of a tv gantry (both being sorted)from what I heard. All other parts of the application achieved A criteria

Just something else to add on this. We knew that we had the issues above and only applied for a 1st Division license.

[passerrby]

from www.eircomloi.ie
All 12 Premier Division clubs have received Premier Division licences, as have three clubs in the First Division who fulfilled the criteria for a Premier Division licence. The remaining seven clubs, including Sporting Fingal, have been awarded First Division licences.


Im told it was longford, waterford and monaghan who got the premier, if so then maybe the rest only applied for first div licences. (only guessing)

[eelmonster]

Fair play to Mons, I'm very surprised Dundalk and Shels failed to get a Prem. licence.

[higgins]

I'm not trying to make a big deal of this. I asked a question first off and nobody has answered it. It's safe to say the issue was the FAI thought you were allowing more than what had been agreed into games last season.

I'm not expecting everyone at United Park to fear for their lives when I say putting peoples safety at risk but the max groud limits are set with peoples safety in mind. So to go over that figure is putting peoples safety at risk. You can argue about the safe figure that was set but thats another issue.

I don't have to say sorry for anything that happened at Shels in the past. I was one of the ones speaking out against a lot of the sh!t that went on, I don't feel any need to defend what happened. I just don't agree that our champions ground should be in such a heap. It's clear from the players you are buying that the money is there.

It would be a matter of opinion of course but I'd like the FAI to put more of an effort in getting grounds up to standard. If you're saying theres nothing that can be done that would have an effect on the capacity of the ground then I have to take your word on that, I just find it surprising.

As for Shels we went from around 1500 at the start of last season to around the 600 mark at games towards the end. Shels probably won't need those 400 away tickets, that's fair enough but don't count on it being too long before we do! We had over 100 down in Kilkenny last season when we were out of the running for the league.

[higgins]

Fair play to Mons, I'm very surprised Dundalk and Shels failed to get a Prem. licence.

Shelbourne did not apply for a Premier Division licence.

[ndrog]

Higgins please spare me the lectures from that moral high ground your looking down from .As a shels fan its laughable .DUFC is busting a gut to try and get the capacity raised and have carried out lots of repairs around the ground to do this .New steps , crash barriers etc .They are also working extremely hard to secure the new stadium There was issues with a certain fire officer who was totally over the top in his assesment and with his crowd capacity estimates .How do you know how many people were let into utd pk for our home games last season ? were you there every game .No . The fire officer was and i seen people being counted by him as they entered the ground .thats how over the top this guy was .

[higgins]

All ticket because Drogheda were allowing too many people into the ground and this went against the fire officers stadium regulation figure ?

Well then ndrog can you answer the question that I asked that started this conversation ?

Why does me being a Shels fan have anything got to do with this?
When Shels stepped out of line I was all in favour of them getting punished, go check the old posts. I want progress for the EL, thats all 22 clubs not just Shels. Nothing seems to have changed around here ?? You still can't debate something without the club you follow being brought into the debate and other peoples past failures dragged up and used as an excuse. It's very strange!

[passerrby]

this guy must have a bee in his bonnet about drogs for some reason most fire officers are not that ott. also am told this morning that it was dundalks pitch that was the problem with the A licence but this does not make sense if its good enough for first div the it must be good enough for premier div.. i dont think there is any difference in licensing requirements for different div is there ?

[OneRedArmy]

i seen people being counted by him as they entered the ground .thats how over the top this guy was .I would have thought thats exactly what a fire officer should be doing if he thought attendences were being underreported?

FFS away clubs frequently do this for cup ties when they think the gate might be fiddled!

[monutdfc]

Im told it was longford, waterford and monaghan who got the premier, if so then maybe the rest only applied for first div licences. (only guessing)
I didn't think we could qualify for a premier licence - is there not a requirement for a minimum number of covered seats?

[holidaysong]

this guy must have a bee in his bonnet about drogs for some reason most fire officers are not that ott. also am told this morning that it was dundalks pitch that was the problem with the A licence but this does not make sense if its good enough for first div the it must be good enough for premier div.. i dont think there is any difference in licensing requirements for different div is there ?

Well the pitch was ok for a Premier Licence last year... :confused:

[ndrog]

I would have thought thats exactly what a fire officer should be doing if he thought attendences were being underreported?

FFS away clubs frequently do this for cup ties when they think the gate might be fiddled!

Attendances were being reported properly as far as i know .The inspector is an over the top idiot .Utd park is no less safe than any other eircom leauge ground .It dosent have seats and uses portaloos , does this make it really unsafe .I dont understand it tbh .

[L37Ultra]

Fair play to Mons, I'm very surprised Dundalk and Shels failed to get a Prem. licence.


So what happens if either Dundalk or Shelbourne win the First Division? Will they be allowed participate in the Premier League next season?

[GavinZac]

So what happens if either Dundalk or Shelbourne win the First Division? Will they be allowed participate in the Premier League next season?

:confused: that will depend on whether they get a Premier license, next season

[eelmonster]

Well the pitch was ok for a Premier Licence last year... :confused:

7.1.2 (Alternative 2) of the Licensing Manual would suggest that the pitch wasn't the problem.

[LeixlipRed]

So what happens if either Dundalk or Shelbourne win the First Division? Will they be allowed participate in the Premier League next season?

When people ask questions like this you have to wonder do they understand the annual process of handing out these licenses. And we didn't apply for a Premier License because we don't need it. And since our run in with the license people 2 years ago we keep our heads down

[L37Ultra]

When people ask questions like this you have to wonder do they understand the annual process of handing out these licenses. And we didn't apply for a Premier License because we don't need it. And since our run in with the license people 2 years ago we keep our heads down


Trust me as a Limerck supporter I know all about the license's process :o, but whats the point of 1st Division clubs applying for Premier League license then? :ball:

[jebus]

And we didn't apply for a Premier License because we don't need it. And since our run in with the license people 2 years ago we keep our heads down

You see that's why I don't like Shelbourne, no bottle. Do you think having run-ins with the license committee each and every year has ever prevented us from being the eL version of the uncle who drops his pants and starts doing the hokey pokey on the dancefloor at these meetings? No