Kosovo declares independence

[Poor Student]

I don't know if anyone noticed but Kosovo declared its independence today. Minister Ahern is recommending that Ireland recognise its independence. There could be trouble ahead as Russia definitely won't and Serbia considers the declaration null and void. Fortunately pro-Western president Tadic scraped in in the presidential elections, the loony he was running against was quite pro-Russian and the two elements could have created further friction. Romania, Cyprus and Slovakia won't recognise its independence either so far.

[GavinZac]

Historically, has Kosovo ever been independent?

[Poor Student]

Never.

[GavinZac]

Its a bit of a strange one really. Im sure people would be sympathetic to their cause but with no history of independence and most people describing the people who want independence as "kosovar-albanians" it would be a can of worms to just accept their independence no questions asked. Should we be as sympathetic to the Basque, Catalan or Breton? Or is it ok to just accept their independence because we dont respect Serbia as much as Spain or France?

[Poor Student]

It's part of the reason Russia is so against it. The recognition of a concentrated ethnic group that wants independence would leave questions about Chechnia, Ossetia etc. Although they're also trying to flex their political muscles and there's always between a certain solidarity between the two traditionally Orthodox Slavic nations.

Albanians are believed to have hit the majority in the region mid/late 19th century. As you point out, what makes their claim legitimate and others not? Without the risk of sounding racist Albanians in the region increase their population at a rapid rate and are a destabilising group in the region. Albanians make up and ever increasing part of Macedonia and parts of Montenegro and Southern Serbia. Where do you draw the line?

[DaveyCakes]

I don't know if anyone noticed but Kosovo declared its independence today. Minister Ahern is recommending that Ireland recognise its independence. There could be trouble ahead as Russia definitely won't and Serbia considers the declaration null and void. Fortunately pro-Western president Tadic scraped in in the presidential elections, the loony he was running against was quite pro-Russian and the two elements could have created further friction. Romania, Cyprus and Slovakia won't recognise its independence either so far.

Why does being pro-Russian make someone a loony? Particularly a Slavic person..

[NeilMcD]

He did not say that the reason he was a loony was due to the fact he was pro russian.

[DaveyCakes]

He didn't give any other reason for calling him a loony, so what is one to assume?

[HarpoJoyce]

When I heard about this the first thing that came to mind was the
Lakotah (var. sp.) own declaration of withdrawal "..from previous agreements and treaties imposed by the United States Government on the Lakotah people." in December 2007
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

Sizeable chunk of the Plains gone, the basic arguement is the the US has previous broken these same agreements and treaties so as the US are not preforming the indigious tribes are removing themselves from the States.
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/map.html
The elders were mandated in 1974 to get Intenational rights and protection of indigenious rights and after withdraw from the US.

Rapid City Journal
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2007/12/20/news/local/doc476a99630633e335271152.txt

USA Today (with a picture of sitting bull).
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

Article quoting Actor and Activist Runny Means
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/21/5946/
"..Meanwhile, the delegation has delivered copies of the letter to the embassies of Bolivia, Venezuela, Chile and South Africa. “We’re asking for recognition,” Means said, adding that Ireland and East Timor are “very interested” in the declaration."

Regards Kosovo, they have not been an effectual part of Serbia for a number of years with UNMIC (blue uniformed cops duties include border and customs) and K-FOR Nato troops looking after security. I only went there once coming up from Podgorica and stopping off in Pec (roman char.) and Prizen (roman char.) in 2003.
Prizen is a nice clean albanian town, with the occasionaly power cut back then.
I travelled down to Albania for an Ireland game sharing a taxi with someone from Dokovica (roman sp.) who worked for one of the International Organisations (I think A-FOR, Nato troops in Albania but I can't remember). The International community has invested alot in Kosovo. Map of Kosovo
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/kosovo_pol98.jpg

It is true that an Albanian language dialect is named Kosovo and there was incidents of Yugoslav customs confiscating Albanian language books at the border in the early 1980's but I disagree with this move away from Serbia. It is a pity that some Nationalists gain power temporarily and make huge, perhaps irraparable decisions in the name of Mandate ( like the plebiscite in Montenegro).

One simple rule of self-determination in Yugoslavia ( former, current, future) is asking "where is the football or basketball team?". If there is a tradition of representing the region in at least these sports then maybe there is an arguement for self-determination.

Poor Student, I realise you have a close interest in this and wonder what different sources you use to come to the point of view above.

[L37Ultra]

How will the affect the Irish Army that are currently peace keeping in the Kosovo region?

[Partizan]

Not only Russia is against but also a number of EU states (Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Malta), China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philipines, India, Sri Lanka and many other Asian states, nearly the entire Latin America is against (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela & Cuba among others) and the vast majority of African Union countries. I saw a report on B92 yesterday and they said that Kosvo would be lucky to be recogbnised by about 40 states (and that would be pushing it.

We are threading in very dangerous waters. many states supporting the Serb poistion are very worried about the ripple affect it will have on ethnic minorities in their own states. Indians, Sri Lankans and Congolese are reportingly bricking it.

Of the 15 members of the UN security council, approx 7 have come out against it.

[ifk101]

Just wondering will Kosovo seek unification with Albania?

[Bluebeard]

Hmm. Independence soon for Tetovo too? Or were those Ethnically Albanian Separatists the bad guys...

[Poor Student]

Why does being pro-Russian make someone a loony? Particularly a Slavic person..

He's the leader of the Serbian ultra-nationalist Radical Party. Being pro-Russian is not prudent for Serbia. He had been talking about allowing Russia to set up military post in Serbia. Serbia's best path for future development lies with the West and European Union.

As far as I know the declaration is following the principles of the Ahtisaari plan and I think the prevents union with Albania.

[paudie]

Just wondering will Kosovo seek unification with Albania?

I was wondering that myself.

Kosovars were waving Albanian flags on the streets rather than a Kosovan flag (only saw it today - blue & yellow).

There's no talk of unification. Possibly Albania don't want to antagonise Serbia but maybe 10 or 20 years down the line

[paudie]

Not only Russia is against but also a number of EU states (Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Malta), China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philipines, India, Sri Lanka and many other Asian states, nearly the entire Latin America is against (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela & Cuba among others) and the vast majority of African Union countries. I saw a report on B92 yesterday and they said that Kosvo would be lucky to be recogbnised by about 40 states (and that would be pushing it.

We are threading in very dangerous waters. many states supporting the Serb poistion are very worried about the ripple affect it will have on ethnic minorities in their own states. Indians, Sri Lankans and Congolese are reportingly bricking it.

Of the 15 members of the UN security council, approx 7 have come out against it.

I think the US line (rightly or wrongly)is that:

1. By attacking Kosovo in the 90's the Serbs have lost the moral authority to govern Kosovo
2. Since then the Serbian government has had no authority in most of Kosovo so calling it part of Serbia is meaningless when the majority has expresed a wish to be independent

[jebus]

It's part of the reason Russia is so against it. The recognition of a concentrated ethnic group that wants independence would leave questions about Chechnia, Ossetia etc.

Where do you draw the line?

The People's Republic of Cork hopefully :)

[DaveyCakes]

He's the leader of the Serbian ultra-nationalist Radical Party. Being pro-Russian is not prudent for Serbia. He had been talking about allowing Russia to set up military post in Serbia. Serbia's best path for future development lies with the West and European Union.

As far as I know the declaration is following the principles of the Ahtisaari plan and I think the prevents union with Albania.

In your opinion...

[John83]

The People's Republic of Cork hopefully :)
Only if we tighten up the immigration laws.

[GavinZac]

Only if we tighten up the immigration laws.

I wouldnt worry about that lads :p

[Lim till i die]

Kosovan independence is a joke.

Unemployment is around the 40% mark.

The main industry is organised crime.

Heard this morning they are relying on Albania to supply them with power. (You know a country is on a firm footing when it's relying on Albania!!)

What we have here is the creation of a US/Western client state in a Russian sphere of influence.

[Poor Student]

Kosovan independence is a joke.

Unemployment is around the 40% mark.

The main industry is organised crime.

Heard this morning they are relying on Albania to supply them with power. (You know a country is on a firm footing when it's relying on Albania!!)

LTID, none of the above would be rectified with Kosovo in the limbo of de facto independence but still under technical Serbian juristiction.


What we have here is the creation of a US/Western client state in a Russian sphere of influence.

Kosovo will be just that but the benefits that come with it may enable the region/country to improve its living standards. I just hope that Serbian reaction to this won't drive them away from the West and into the arms of Russia.

[Lim till i die]

LTID, none of the above would be rectified with Kosovo in the limbo of de facto independence but still under technical Serbian juristiction.

The region of Serbia should be handed back to Serbia.

I would consider this preferable to a bout of EU imperialism.

Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign state??


Kosovo will be just that but the benefits that come with it may enable the region/country to improve its living standards.

Creating makey-uppy countries along etchnic lines isn't exactly the wisest move if long term stability in the Balkans is what you're after.


I just hope that Serbian reaction to this won't drive them away from the West and into the arms of Russia

With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

[Poor Student]

The region of Serbia should be handed back to Serbia.

Rightly or wrongly I think the situation has long passed that being a viable possibility.


I would consider this preferable to a bout of EU imperialism.

I prefer EU influence in the area than Russian.


Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign state??

Isn't the High Representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina an EU appointed position?


With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on. Serbia would never be able to exercise authority over the region again without severe heavy handedness and I am not sure if they'd even be be capable of that post NATO. Serbia needs to look towards the European common market and Western investment and develop a more open outlook or they risk becoming an isolated island encircled by EU and Western interests.

[HarpoJoyce]

Poor Student you have made your preferences clear, and that is too your credit.


Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign State?


Isn't the High Representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina an EU appointed position?

But answering a question with a question about another country in the region is, I believe unfair. The answer to your question is no the High Rep of BiH is appointed by a 55 country organisation called the Peace Implementation Commmitte set up as part of the Dayton Accord(s)
http://www.ohr.int/pic/default.asp?content_id=38563

Since that time the EU has made the Office its representative in Bosnia that should not diminish from the initial intention of the Office.
http://www.ohr.int/ohr-info/gen-info/default.asp?content_id=38612
BiH after all have their own elected representatives.



Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on. Serbia would never be able to exercise authority over the region again without severe heavy handedness and I am not sure if they'd even be be capable of that post NATO. Serbia needs to look towards the European common market and Western investment and develop a more open outlook or they risk becoming an isolated island encircled by EU and Western interests.


I think the Kosovo Declaration will remain in Serbian politics for a long time. The Stability Pact for South East Europe
http://www.stabilitypact.org/ ( no longer Balkans or Near East) holds some of the purse strings and can chastise or complement as sees fit.
http://www.stabilitypact.org/pages/press/detail.asp?y=2008&p=645
"The re-election of President Boris Tadic is a clear sign that Serbia has voted for its European future and has rejected its nationalist past. Special Co-ordinator of the Stability Pact for South Eastern Europe Erhard Busek expressed its great satisfaction over the victory of Tadic and the very high turnout at the elections."

Statements from the SEE like the one quoted above only help to polarise politics in Serbia.

[Magicme]

I dont really know the ins and outs of it but I used to go out with a Kosovar during the war. He was a refugee in Holland and his best mate was the son of the "President" of Kosovo. There were a gang of them and they were very adamant that they should be an independant state but they had to leave or become gun fodder in the turmoil there. I have lost touch with them but for their sake I hope their independance is all they hoped it would be.

[Lim till i die]

There were a gang of them and they were very adamant that they should be an independant state but they had to leave or become gun fodder in the turmoil there.

:rolleyes: :D


Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on.

Do you honestly see this happening PS??

This is the Serbs we're talking about.

Has the potential to turn the whole region into a tinder-box again.

What if the large Albanian minorities in Macedonia and Montenegro (Both only in the international door themselves) decide to get the hump about a Greater Albania??

What about the Magyars in Slovakia, Romania and elsewhere further north??

Yet another example of "Great Powers" ballsing up the Balkans

[DaveyCakes]

Where have the recent posts on this topic disappeared to?

[Bluebeard]

Where have the recent posts on this topic disappeared to?

Shunted into off-topic

[paudie]

Yet another example of "Great Powers" ballsing up the Balkans

Yeah, if only they'd let Milosovic and Tudjman sort it out things would have been hunky dory:confused:


What if the large Albanian minorities in Macedonia and Montenegro (Both only in the international door themselves) decide to get the hump about a Greater Albania??

The chances of a Greater Albania seem pretty slim as Albania "proper" seems to have little interest in it.

If Albania wasn't inclined to merge with a vastly ethnicly Albanian Kosovo they'll hardly be interested in Albanian minorities in other countries.

Probably more interested in preventing another economic collapse caused by pyramid schemes:o

[Partizan]

Serbia is upping the ante on NATO big time. While the K-Serbs destroyed the illegal border posts, quite a few MUP (Interior Police) slipped in. :D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/20/kosovo.serbia

Serbs & other non Albanians serving in the Kosovo Police Force (KPS) are expected to resign en masse. The valuable Trepca mines worth billions will now be under control of Belgrade.

[Lim till i die]

Yeah, if only they'd let Milosovic and Tudjman sort it out things would have been hunky dory:confused:

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs :p

[DaveyCakes]

I'll copy this in again, seeing as some has been deleting posts without reading them....



Originally Posted by Poor Student
I prefer EU influence in the area than Russian.

As long as the EU (and non-EU countries in Eastern and Southeastern Europe)is importing gas from Russia, there will be a huge Russian influence in the area, whether you prefer it or not and regardless of makeup the governments in any of the countries in the region...$£€

See the agreements recently signed between Russia and Bulgaria and Serbia:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...aria-Putin.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22792744/

That's not to mention the cultural and historical links.

You seem to have a big problem with Russia:)

[paudie]

Serbia is upping the ante on NATO big time. While the K-Serbs destroyed the illegal border posts, quite a few MUP (Interior Police) slipped in. :D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/20/kosovo.serbia

Serbs & other non Albanians serving in the Kosovo Police Force (KPS) are expected to resign en masse. The valuable Trepca mines worth billions will now be under control of Belgrade.

Interesting.

Probably inevitable that Serbs in the North would effectively separate themselves from Kosovo and opt for control from Belgrade. Can only hope that there is little or no violence as a result.

[SkStu]

Creating makey-uppy countries along etchnic lines isn't exactly the wisest move if long term stability in the Balkans is what you're after.



With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

[HarpoJoyce]

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

You guessed wrong SKStu.

Most posts here are trying to understand the reality of the situation at the moment. Nobody yet has tried to provoke, on a very sensitive subject. South East Europe matters, its important, that's why people from very far away are trying to get to grips with it and understand a little of what's going on. A Declaration has been made and posters are attempting to predict or anticipate the future.

[SkStu]

agreed for the most part but i feel the points i made still stand and that LTID's comments are pretty wide of the mark on historical and moral grounds.

For what its worth, its fascinating how this will develop going ahead. The Canadian government here are reluctant to recognise Kosovo and the reason for this is reumoured to be the potential for the status of Quebec to suddenly become an issue in the country again. We'll wait and see how this impacts the rest of the world (could Serbian antics be responsible for another world war?)

But on the sole issue of Kosovo's declaration i feel it is valid for an ethnic group to be allowed determine how the country, its lands and its people are managed. Are the Kosovars any less worthy of determining their own destiny than the Croats, Slovenes or Bosnians?

[deecay]

Right wing Ultra scum all over europe displaying their anger at it with countless banners

[Poor Student]

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

What are you talking about? Yugoslavia was formed when the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs agreed to unite with the Kingdom of Serbia. The idea of Yugoslavism (in various shapes and forms) existed for over a century before that in Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia. Sub-national identities existed quite happily in Yugoslavia post WW2 until the 1980s. Slovenia for example perfectly retains its culture, language and identity today as it did throughout Yugoslavia's existence. If anything Yugoslavia safe guarded it.


2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

Care to elaborate on that? The land was part of one of the older Serbian kingdoms before Ottoman Turkey defeated and annexed Serbia to its empire. It's the site of Serbia's equivalent of the Battle of Clontarf or the Boyne and contains some of Serbian orthodoxy's holiest sites. Over the centuries Ottoman dominance saw the area clear of Serbs as the moved towards the border with the Austrian empire. Serbia reclaimed the area when the Ottoman empire finally collapsed in WW1.

To say they stole it is a flippant description. I don't justify Serbian claims on the territory now but the Israeli state was borne out of historical claims to an area then released from Ottoman rule. Irish nationalists claim an area which ceased to become majority Irish due to centuries of annexation. Such situations are not black and white and play out very differently in different contexts. LTID understands that the Serbians will feel aggreived and victimised because in this particular circumstance outside influences have conspired against them to see them lose in this situation. They only have to look across their Western border to see Serbs forced to be part of the state of Bosnia whether they like it or not. In order to move on and build better relationships in the future it's important to see where the Serbs are coming from.


But on the sole issue of Kosovo's declaration i feel it is valid for an ethnic group to be allowed determine how the country, its lands and its people are managed. Are the Kosovars any less worthy of determining their own destiny than the Croats, Slovenes or Bosnians?

Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia were seperate republics within Yugoslavia. When the country dissolved they seceeded as independent republics. The international community was quite specific in insisting the republics themselves could seceed as they wanted to hold Bosnia together. There are Croats and Serbs in Bosnia who would rather join their mother states. Kosovo was only a province within the Republic of Serbia, which for quite some time remained in a larger state structure itself (the continuation of Yugoslavia and the state of Serbia & Montenegro). As has already been pointed out following you state for every ethnic group policy would have further larger implications globally and in the Balkans. What about the Hungarian and Italian minorities in Slovenia? What about the Slovenian minorities in Austria and Italy? What about the Croats and Serbs in Bosnia? What about the Albanians in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia? Perhaps most pertinent to this issue, what about the Serbian minority in North Kosovo? Do you keep redrawing the borders to meet shifting ethnic trends?


Do you honestly see this happening PS??

This is the Serbs we're talking about.

I think secretly the likes of Tadic are probably happy the issue has come to a head. It's been looming over everyone's head like the sword of Damocles. Sure, the Serbian radical party will harp on about it and you'll always have rabid nationalists who won't let it go but I think most people will cool off on the issue in the coming years. I think a lot of the violence in Belgrade is being perpetrated by Partizan and Red Star hooligans. A Serb I know is delighted it's happened so things can move on.

[GavinZac]

Right wing Ultra scum all over europe displaying their anger at it with countless banners

im confused as to why they are scum?

[DaveyCakes]

agreed for the most part but i feel the points i made still stand and that LTID's comments are pretty wide of the mark on historical and moral grounds.

For what its worth, its fascinating how this will develop going ahead. The Canadian government here are reluctant to recognise Kosovo and the reason for this is reumoured to be the potential for the status of Quebec to suddenly become an issue in the country again. We'll wait and see how this impacts the rest of the world (could Serbian antics be responsible for another world war?)

But on the sole issue of Kosovo's declaration i feel it is valid for an ethnic group to be allowed determine how the country, its lands and its people are managed. Are the Kosovars any less worthy of determining their own destiny than the Croats, Slovenes or Bosnians?

Kosovars aren't an ethnic group. If they were, do you not think that they would have been waving some sort of Kosovan flag or symbol as independence was being declared, rather than the Albanian flags that they had, as their design department was modifying an EU flag.....

[Lim till i die]

This:


there is so much wrong with these statements.

Followed by these:


1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA

Good grief.

Have a read before the next time you attempt to pooh pooh someone with a big pile of pooh of your own.



EDIT: Superb Post by Poor Student. I suggest you start your reading there

[SkStu]

i read Poor Students response and, um, it was long. It might be an excellent post depending on your point of view on the political history of the area. If the culture of each part of Yugoslav union was so cherished and protected by the Serbs then why are there so many Croatians, Macedonians, Bosnians and Slovenes around the world. The Croatians in particular are like the first batch of Irish emigrants in that regard. Political and Economic migrants.

No matter what spin you want to put on it, the union of Slavic states which became Yugoslavia was owned and managed by the Serbs to their benefit and to the detriment of the rest of the countries. Its documented and its fact. (there is no such thing as a previous leaning towards Yugoslavism by Croats and Slovenes-please point me in the right direction if there is)

In my opinion, the actions of Serbia to this announcement is not going to do them any favours. They seem like the bitter actions of a bully trying to hold on to the power they once had than any sort of empathy with Kosovan-Serbs. Why did they attack the Croatian embassy in Belgrade and tear down and burn the Croatian flag? Its a symbolic gesture that speaks volumes of the Serbian intent and mindset. My sympathy for them is non-existent.

[Poor Student]

i read Poor Students response and, um, it was long. It might be an excellent post depending on your point of view on the political history of the area. If the culture of each part of Yugoslav union was so cherished and protected by the Serbs then why are there so many Croatians, Macedonians, Bosnians and Slovenes around the world. The Croatians in particular are like the first batch of Irish emigrants in that regard. Political and Economic migrants.

There's as many Serbian immigrants in Europe, North America and Australia as there are Croats. A lot of Yugoslavs left as economic migrants in the 60s and 70s as Tito supported Yugoslavs working abroad and pumping money back into the country. Sure, a good batch left during the late 80s/90s with the dissolution and eventual civil war but again just as many Serbs left. Again I'll point you to Slovenia. The Slovenian people spread far beyond its current borders making up a large population of regions in Southern Austria (Carinthia and Styria) and a large chunk of Trieste's population. All Slovenian areas that lay outside the Yugoslav state have had Slovenian identity diminished and wiped out yet the small nation survived and has flourished within Yugoslavia's boundaries maintaining its unique langauge (quite distinct from Serbian and Croatian) and its culture.


No matter what spin you want to put on it, the union of Slavic states which became Yugoslavia was owned and managed by the Serbs to their benefit and to the detriment of the rest of the countries. Its documented and its fact. (there is no such thing as a previous leaning towards Yugoslavism by Croats and Slovenes-please point me in the right direction if there is)

Yugoslavia was formed to the benefit of Slovenia and Croatia. The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs was not internationally recognised and had a chance of being swallowed back up into its larger neighbours in the post WW1 settlement had it not joined with Serbia, one of the victorious powers. Apart from a period of dictatorial madness in the hands of the monarchy from 1929-1939 and under Milosevic Yugoslavia wasn't managed to the benefit of the Serbs. Post WW2 the state was owned and managed to the benefit of Tito, a Croat. Serbia held the federal capital so there was always going to be a natural periphery/centre clash just as development and capital in Ireland is focused on Dublin.

As for no previous leanings towards Southern Slav unity? Are you arrogant enough to simply write that off? Southern Slav unity movements date back to the early 1800s. Slovenia and Croatia were merged as a Napoleonic province and feelings of pan-Southern Slavism carried on from that. In the 1830's there was a strong movement in Croatia which supported unity Serbs, Croats and Slovenian to form at worst a Southern Slav bloc in Austro-Hungary and at best an independent kingdom. I'm not going to get hugely into it here but do some research yourself.


In my opinion, the actions of Serbia to this announcement is not going to do them any favours. They seem like the bitter actions of a bully trying to hold on to the power they once had than any sort of empathy with Kosovan-Serbs. Why did they attack the Croatian embassy in Belgrade and tear down and burn the Croatian flag? Its a symbolic gesture that speaks volumes of the Serbian intent and mindset. My sympathy for them is non-existent.

You've built a fallacious and warped history to justify present views of Serbia, you're obviously going to have very little understanding or sympathy. The Croatian embassy was thrashed as they signalled their intent to recognise Kosovo, the same thing they did to embassies of other countries who did the same, why single them out? Also, every country has its malcontents and cretins, look at our own knuckle draggers who came out to greet the 'Love Ulster' parade. You seem only too happy to castigate the Serbs and misrepresent situations.

[Kingdom]

I've nothing to add to the topic but I did buy a book called History of the Balkans by Mischa Glenny (Sp?). I got about 15% read and was still in the 15th century. I do intend to finish it some day :D but the book (even the small bit I read) gives an excellent insight into the history of the whole area.

[HarpoJoyce]

I've nothing to add to the topic but I did buy a book called History of the Balkans by Mischa Glenny (Sp?)........... (even the small bit I read) gives an excellent insight into the history of the whole area.

It appears to be a comprehensive book on some of the history of the region. The bother always, is how much bias the author brings to the subject.
This Noel Malcolm book gets alot of distributon
http://www.eason.ie/look/9780330412247/Kosovo--A-Short-History/Noel-Malcolm but is basically a letter to Serbia on how to treat Kosovo which is not really what you want in an historical document.
A sympathic critic of the same book.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewy5.htm