Head to head: Trap versus Venables

[Stuttgart88]

OK, bar any surprises (I’d be surprised if there were no further surprises!) it’s Tel or Gio.

Who would you want?

I have to admit that my initial aversion to Venables has cooled, mainly because the virtual deification of the man in the media made his appointment appear inevitable at a time when several better credible candidates were available or could have been approached. This has now changed: these candidates probably aren’t available any longer.

I also think that Venables is a slightly safer choice. Decent enough manager, can relate to the players and if the press is to believed, they’d actually want to play for him. I honestly think that most our players are good, certainly good enough to give good teams a good game and push hard for second place. Morale is at an all time low and this is something that must be immediately addressed. It won’t take a footballing genius to work out who should play where and how to instruct certain players how to execute their roles. I have a nagging suspicion that the key to stemming the tide in the near term is to look at the likes of Lawrence, Delap or Walters, if only to provide cover which with our injury record we’re bound to need. Venables is far more likely to know about these options than Trapattoni or even Brady.

Trapattoni would be an extraordinary scoop however. Little old us getting a true giant of the managerial circuit in Europe. He doesn’t tolerate slackers or prima donnas. Our players ought to respect him but with their attitudes you’d wonder would they? Given what I think is required (organisation, motivation, confidence) I think that appointing Trapattoni may be going a step further than we need. That said, we need someone hardened who knows how to win ugly, grind out Sven-like 1-0 wins in newly independent Eastern European countries. Qualification isn’t a beauty contest, it’s about points, nothing else.

Richard Dunne queries whether a guy with no English can get his ideas across quickly and Stan, yes him, asks if he’d know enough about the Irish players available to him. On this basis my support for Trap would have to be qualified by having an Irish insider in a prominent supporting role, ideally Liam Brady for obvious reasons. Think Poyet and Ramos.

A poll at this stage would be interesting:


Tel
Trap
Trap, but only with Brady on board

[NeilMcD]

Stuttgart you have pretty much summed up my view on this.

I would prefer Trap with Brady on Board, then Venables, and then Trap with no Irish input in that order.


I do think the players have a point but they should not be saying it to the media in my view. I think Trap with Brady in charge would be perfect.

[dr_peepee]

Yeah stutts!! You summed up my feelings there too...

On one hand I do worry about Trapps knowledge of Irish options outside the premiership, as well as the language/culture aspect. It's a worry about the players taking to him, and has he got enough to shake them out of the rutt they're in... They seem to lean towards Venables and I'm reluctantly starting to accept the idea

But then I wonder do the players actually know what's good for them. The culture thing was a factor when Wenger took over at Arsenal. Adams himself said he questioned Wengers ideas to his face at the time, but everything fell into place cos Wenger new what he was doing..

I don't know anything about Trapps style to comment for certain, but he's an impressive record. Maybe taking the emotions out of the set up for now is requried?? Focus on getting it right, then the performances and the morale will follow, instead of the other way around.

I honestly just don't know any more. I hear learned figures like Giles say ridiculous comments like we don't need a manager til the next competitive games... The same people will cite lack of preperation for poor results in said competitve games. It's just grating at this stage. But it's Trapp and Brady for me. I'd bring Chris hughton back in some cappacity aswell..

[Stuttgart88]

Dunne is right when he says time is an issue, if only to have the new man or his trusted scouts watch the 30 or so contenders for a place in action over the remaining months of the season. Starting next autumn will be too late.

[eekers]

The thing is though you cant force Brady on Trapattoni. He has to be the one to make the decisions on his backroom staff.

[Bondvillain]

I dont honestly believe Trappatoni is a willing candidate.

Obviously, I have no real idea what's going on (That's me and the rest of the country then) but what I suspect is, the panel settled on Venables, as their initial selection has either lost interest or become employed elsewhere since this process started in 1867, but elements within the FAI don't particularly want Venables, for what could be any number of possible reasons, and therefore have 'recommended' that the panel have another go & come back with plan B.

The Panel, sadly, have no plan B, hence the constant fumbling, buffoonery & postponements of announcements.

The Trappatoni rumour has arrived just at the right time to provide an egg/face removal device for Givens. So i reckon it's between Venables (If his pride hasnt been dented by constant rebuffing, which I doubt) or Unnammed miracle candidate X, who givens is praying turns up in the next 9 days.

[Carrigaline]

Why the clamour to get Brady on board? Just because he's a good pundit, his managerial record would suggest that he's not cut out for management. Also, we already have a fine assistant manager in Chris Hughton.

I'm not convinced about this Trapattoni lad either. Sure, he has experience and an ok record, but I'd be very concerned about his ultra-defensive mindset. If he plays defensively away to teams like Montenegro or Georgia, I can see us getting badly caught out. Also, what will it do to players like McGeady, Hunt, Keane and Doyle by trying to get them to track back all the time?

[dr_peepee]

Why the clamour to get Brady on board?

Cos' he can speak greaseball!!

[NeilMcD]

I'm not convinced about this Trapattoni lad either. Sure, he has experience and an ok record, but I'd be very concerned about his ultra-defensive mindset. If he plays defensively away to teams like Montenegro or Georgia, I can see us getting badly caught out. Also, what will it do to players like McGeady, Hunt, Keane and Doyle by trying to get them to track back all the time?



Do you actually know how his teams play, and also to say he has an ok record is laughable. Check his record out, only Capello and Ferguson could come anywhere near him in the modern game.

There are concerns about launguage and cultural issues and Brady would be seen as a good link in the sameway Poyet is at Spurs at the moment. Brady is a good coach and his highly regarded at arsenal and has a good vision of how the game should be played. I would not want Brady as the top man but as second in charge to Trap, it would be perfect in my view.

Also how Trap plays is that about 7 on the team defend of the outfield players and the other 3 are there for flair etc.

Ok record, I do have to laugh at that.

[Carrigaline]

The thing is though you cant force Brady on Trapattoni. He has to be the one to make the decisions on his backroom staff.
The one benefit I can see, is that Brady speaks Italian. Maybe he can be a translator, like Jose Mourinho was for Toshack :p

[Stuttgart88]

Why the clamour to get Brady on board? Just because he's a good pundit, his managerial record would suggest that he's not cut out for management. I actually think he was a very good coach, Celtic in particular played very good football but at a time wehen they were nearly bankrupt. Nobody could have challenged rangers in those years. Most Brighton fans remember Brady in a good light, another hospital pass of a mangerial job. Also, he can communicate. Brady could bring local knowledge, an understanding of Trap's ideas and the ability to communicate them.

[harps1954]

Also, we already have a fine assistant manager in Chris Hughton.

Since when. Hughton got the boot along with Kerr.

[NeilMcD]

The one benefit I can see, is that Brady speaks Italian. Maybe he can be a translator, like Jose Mourinho was for Toshack :p

When was Mourinhio the transloator for Toshack, was it not at Barca with Robson. Toshack was at Madrid but I dont think Mourinhio ever worked at Madrid.

[Carrigaline]

Do you actually know how his teams play, and also to say he has an ok record is laughable.

Don't be so patronising.

His record as Italian manager is dreadful and he was rightly villified by the media over there for his failure. I am only questioning his ability to get results away to the potential banana skins of Georgia and Montenegro.

[Carrigaline]

When was Mourinhio the transloator for Toshack, was it not at Barca with Robson. Toshack was at Madrid but I dont think Mourinhio ever worked at Madrid.
Yea, it was Robson, I mixed them up.

[mr.untitled]

"I'm not convinced about this Trapattoni lad either. "

your kidding, right?

[NeilMcD]

Don't be so patronising.

His record as Italian manager is dreadful and he was rightly villified by the media over there for his failure. I am only questioning his ability to get results away to the potential banana skins of Georgia and Montenegro.

sorry if you say that Trapattoni has an ok record you are clearly deluded. Only Ferguson has won more major trophies in Europe.

[shakermaker1982]

good post Stuttgart.

I want to see the Trap on board with Brady as his right hand man. He has enough time to follow the Premier League and Championship and pick out 22 decent squad players. I'm sure I could identify 22 players if I was asked to manage Austria/Switzerland or whoever and I don't have any coaching qualifications other than a few go's on Football Manager. His age concerns me but so long as he is in good health (unlike Bobby Robson) I think he can do a good job. The players might want an arm around the shoulder/cuddly/jokey type manager but they had one of them last time out and look what happened. Trappatoni by all accounts doesn't take any sh** and I'd love Stephen Ireland to pull some of those kind of tricks on this fella. We need discipline, order and direction and this fella will bring that to the table. We won't be squandering leads in the last minute, we won't concede loads of goals from set pieces and he definitely won't tolerate players crying to the press/tv studios about how hard it is to play for Ireland nowadays.

El Tel's xmas tree formation and 3 men at the back might have worked over 10 years ago but too many question marks hang over his head.

[JamesB]

I think a head to head could be usefull

Trap
Age:69 on St patricks day
Years in managment:38

Teams managed:
AC Milan
Juventus
Inter Milan
FC Bayern Munich
Cagliari
Fiorentina
Italy
SL Benfica
VfB Stuttgart
Red Bull Salzburg

Honours:
National leagues:
- Won 10
- Runner up 5

National Cups:
Won 3
Runner up 3

Europe:
won a European Cup,
a Cup Winners' Cup,
three UEFA Cups,
the Super Cup,
runner up european cup,

International - Qualification:
2002 world cup
2004 European chamionship

Internation - Championship:
2002 - 2nd round beaten by south korea
2004 - Failed to get out of group

Terry
Age:65
Years in managment:34

Teams Managed:
Crystal Palace
Queens Park Rangers
Barcelona
Tottenham Hotspur
England
Australia
Middlesbrough
Leeds United
England assistant manager

Honours:
National leagues:
- Won 1

National Cups:
- Won 1

International - Qualification:
1998 World cup failed to qualify after play off with iran
2008 European championship failed to qualify (only assistant)

Internationl - Championship:
1996 - beaten semi finalists.


So El tel is 4 years younger, speaks english and has a better record at a major tournament.
After that Trap is so far in front it's not even funny, do we really think we can get this guy and are we really saying that if we can, it would be better if we don't coz he doesn't know who Rory Delap is?

[Greenforever]

NO contest, Trap is a current manager, who will look on this as a part time job for his semi retirement, and as long as Brady is involved we are grooming our next manager which is most important going forward. TV is a showman, long past his sell by date. Also Trap's reluctance to leave his current job with HB shows a man of charachter that will stay the distance and not jump ship if a better offer comes in.

If the amigos pull this off they will be heroes, now if they meant to pull it off is another matter :D:D:D

[Torn-Ado]

This is an interesting one. Head to Head, Trap and terry.

Trap obviously has a few years on the bold Terry who is much heavier and has a longer reach. But Trap seems more vicious and could turn this into a brawl. Its a tough one to call but for sheer power alone I'd go for the cockney wide boy.

[Claret Murph]

Without doubt I would say the TRAP door will be open for him .

HE'S THE MAN ........

[eirebhoy]

Poll added.

[Paulie]

[QUOTE=shakermaker1982;869764]
The players might want an arm around the shoulder/cuddly/jokey type manager but they had one of them last time out and look what happened. Trappatoni by all accounts doesn't take any sh** and I'd love Stephen Ireland to pull some of those kind of tricks on this fella. We need discipline, order and direction and this fella will bring that to the table. We won't be squandering leads in the last minute, we won't concede loads of goals from set pieces and he definitely won't tolerate players crying to the press/tv studios about how hard it is to play for Ireland nowadays. QUOTE]

Agreed. We've tried the arm around the shoulder type of coach that all the players like and it's gotten us nowhere. Once the players and management are dedicated to the common goal of qualifying us for the World Cup then I'm happy enough with that. They don't have to all get on to be completely focused on the task in hand.

[Bondvillain]

Can I have an option for

"I dont believe Trapattoni is a serious candidate, more a smokescreen fanned by an increasingly desperate FAI, similar to the previous Houllier and Tigana debacles which were embraced with varying degrees of enthusiasm by an equally desperate media, so taking that into consideration, even in a field of 1 candidate, Im not sure I'd want to vote for Venables, and anyway, the board are no doubt currently frantically searching for an acceptable "plan B" candidate that we dont know about yet."

in the poll please?

[ainsie]

I think a head to head could be usefull

Trap
Age:69 on St patricks day
Years in managment:38

Teams managed:
AC Milan
Juventus
Inter Milan
FC Bayern Munich
Cagliari
Fiorentina
Italy
SL Benfica
VfB Stuttgart
Red Bull Salzburg

Honours:
National leagues:
- Won 10
- Runner up 5

National Cups:
Won 3
Runner up 3

Europe:
won a European Cup,
a Cup Winners' Cup,
three UEFA Cups,
the Super Cup,
runner up european cup,

International - Qualification:
2002 world cup
2004 European chamionship

Internation - Championship:
2002 - 2nd round beaten by south korea
2004 - Failed to get out of group

Terry
Age:65
Years in managment:34

Teams Managed:
Crystal Palace
Queens Park Rangers
Barcelona
Tottenham Hotspur
England
Australia
Middlesbrough
Leeds United
England assistant manager

Honours:
National leagues:
- Won 1

National Cups:
- Won 1

International - Qualification:
1998 World cup failed to qualify after play off with iran
2008 European championship failed to qualify (only assistant)

Internationl - Championship:
1996 - beaten semi finalists.


So El tel is 4 years younger, speaks english and has a better record at a major tournament.
After that Trap is so far in front it's not even funny, do we really think we can get this guy and are we really saying that if we can, it would be better if we don't coz he doesn't know who Rory Delap is?

Very good post and if the comparison above does not convince people nothing will. 19 management victories against 2. And who cares if he knows no one. Let in learn in the next 6 months and pick a team based on his knowledge not hype.

[mrtndvn]

"I'm not convinced about this Trapattoni lad either. "

your kidding, right?

He couldnt do it with some of the best players in the world with Italy, what hope in hell does he have with our bunch of wasters?

El Tel for me and spend the money we would waste on Trap on the EL. Best way to improve the national team

[Ireland4ever]

I think a head to head could be usefull

Trap
Age:69 on St patricks day
Years in managment:38

Teams managed:
AC Milan
Juventus
Inter Milan
FC Bayern Munich
Cagliari
Fiorentina
Italy
SL Benfica
VfB Stuttgart
Red Bull Salzburg

Honours:
National leagues:
- Won 10
- Runner up 5

National Cups:
Won 3
Runner up 3

Europe:
won a European Cup,
a Cup Winners' Cup,
three UEFA Cups,
the Super Cup,
runner up european cup,

International - Qualification:
2002 world cup
2004 European chamionship

Internation - Championship:
2002 - 2nd round beaten by south korea
2004 - Failed to get out of group



Jeez, after reading that list of honours is anyone else thinking 'why the hell would he want to touch us'??

[ken foree]

Terry

International - Qualification:
1998 World cup failed to qualify after play off with iran


i don't understand this, england qualified for france '98? ahh as australia. d'oh

[Ireland4ever]

i don't understand this, england qualified for france '98?

Australia

[Stuttgart88]

Australia Ken!

They were 2-0 up in the second leg of the play off with 20 mins to go and some clown parachuted into the goalposts. The game was delayed and after the restart Iran scored twice to go through.

[ken foree]

argh yea sorry i realized it and edited the post - but wanted to leave the original brain-fart in there for all to see. getting old :o

[OwlsFan]

Do you actually know how his teams play, and also to say he has an ok record is laughable. Check his record out, only Capello and Ferguson could come anywhere near him in the modern game.

Is it not true to say that his club record is excellent but that his international management record isn't anything to write home about? I also think at his age he's a bit old for the job.

[eekers]

Is it not true to say that his club record is excellent but that his international management record isn't anything to write home about? I also think at his age he's a bit old for the job.

he's qualified for two more tournaments than venables has.

[NeilMcD]

His international record is that he qualified to for two major championships, which is 2 more than Venables did.

When there he failed to get out of the group but once that was with 5 points which has never happened before or since.

I think we are deluded as people if somehow we think that Trap is not good enough for the job. Wake up, we were offered Bryan Robson before and we then had Steve Staunton.

This would be like going from my two year old newphew as an artist to Picasso.

[Bondvillain]

I certainly think he'd be good enough, I just dont believe he's really interested in it.

[mrtndvn]

I certainly think he'd be good enough, I just dont believe he's really interested in it.

I agree I dont believe hes intersted, I can't see why he'd take a massive pay cut to manage us, among other things

[eirebhoy]

I'm not convinced about this Trapattoni lad either. Sure, he has experience and an ok record, but I'd be very concerned about his ultra-defensive mindset. If he plays defensively away to teams like Montenegro or Georgia, I can see us getting badly caught out. Also, what will it do to players like McGeady, Hunt, Keane and Doyle by trying to get them to track back all the time?
I think your mistaking the tactically intelligent defensive Italian football with the 100% pure guts and effort of British defensive football. :) Keane, McGeady and another wouldn't be required to track back much at all. He plays counter attacking football so you can't have all the players back defending. Doyle probably wouldn't make Trap's team, he likes the 4-2-3-1 system.

[NeilMcD]

I am sure Doyle could be the 1 and Doyle could be part of the 3 there Eirebhoy

[mr.untitled]

He couldnt do it with some of the best players in the world with Italy, what hope in hell does he have with our bunch of wasters?

El Tel for me and spend the money we would waste on Trap on the EL. Best way to improve the national team

to use a Rico parlance, traps team were ridden rock solid in korea

have no idea why hed want the irish job tho

[NeilMcD]

He couldnt do it with some of the best players in the world with Italy, what hope in hell does he have with our bunch of wasters?

El Tel for me and spend the money we would waste on Trap on the EL. Best way to improve the national team

Sorry but he has done it with the best players and average players he has won 19 trophies to Venables 2. Venables has also failed to qualify which Trappatoni has not. There is no way you can say Venables is a better manager than Trappatoni because he is not. THe only valid concern is the ability to get his ideas across to the players. His record ****ess all over Venables. When was the last time Venables won a tropy 1991, 17 years ago, when did Trappatoni win one 2007.

South Korea robbed Italyl of a place in the quarter finals and Sweden and Denmark managed to fix a 2-2 draw and Italy went out unbeaten with five points. Now they were not his finest hours but on the back of that he has won the leauge with Bayen, Juve Inter, Benfica and Salzburg.

As Tom Humphries has said, he has forgotton more about football then all the other candidates have ever known.

[Bondvillain]

he has forgotton more about football then all the other candidates have ever known.

Ah no! He has Alzheimers?

Fúck that then.

[mrtndvn]

to use a Rico parlance, traps team were ridden rock solid in korea

have no idea why hed want the irish job tho

Although the ref made misstakes that doesnt tell the whole story. His defensive tactics were at fault for Italys poor showing. It was a poor Korea team no matter how fit Gus had them.



Sorry but he has done it with the best players and average players he has won 19 trophies to Venables 2. Venables has also failed to qualify which Trappatoni has not. There is no way you can say Venables is a better manager than Trappatoni because he is not. THe only valid concern is the ability to get his ideas across to the players. His record ****ess all over Venables. When was the last time Venables won a tropy 1991, 17 years ago, when did Trappatoni win one 2007.

South Korea robbed Italyl of a place in the quarter finals and Sweden and Denmark managed to fix a 2-2 draw and Italy went out unbeaten with five points. Now they were not his finest hours but on the back of that he has won the leauge with Bayen, Juve Inter, Benfica and Salzburg.

As Tom Humphries has said, he has forgotton more about football then all the other candidates have ever known.

Listen I dont think it matters who manages our team as we aint going through anyway.

I'd personaly want Venables as when we dont qualify id rather is was because we had a go rather that sat back and let teams beat us.

El Tel may not get the job, but I seriously doubt Trap will get it so I dont think i have much to worry about.

[NeilMcD]

A




Listen I dont think it matters who manages our team as we aint going through anyway.

I'd personaly want Venables as when we dont qualify id rather is was because we had a go rather that sat back and let teams beat us.

El Tel may not get the job, but I seriously doubt Trap will get it so I dont think i have much to worry about.


Do you not think that we should get the best man for the job who will give us the best chance of us getting through rather than your loser attitude which belongs more to the 1950s Ireland rather than today. Bulgaria are no great shakes and with decent organisation and leadership and a gameplan we can certainly come second in this group.

[GuisaSaigon]

Trappatoni would be a far better appointment than Venables. With or without Brady I dont care, anyone but El Tel will do for me!

[mrtndvn]

i believe that spending big on a name like Trap is pointless, just as England have done.

If the wage difference between Trap and venables was spend in developing ground/grounds or training facilities in the EL I believe it would be better spend as a whole.

Just as a gut feeling I dont think Trap will do well, I dont think our players are technical enough to play in his systems.formations. I honestly believe Venables would be a better appointment.

But I'll support whoever gets it

[NeilMcD]

There is a set budget for the Ireland manager I dont think its going to work that Trap will get more than Venables or vice versa.

[mrtndvn]

I think traps C.V. demans a big wage. Hes said to be on 4 million with Red Bull, why would be come to Ireland for 1 million which I think I heard we are offering?

[Stuttgart88]

I heard he's on less at Red Bull, c. 1 million, so the two salaries are comparable.

I doubt the Trapattoni speculation would have gained such momentum if the FAI package is likely to be so far short of what Trapattoni would expect. It's been well documented that the FAI can pay around 1 million plus bonuses, maybe more if justified.

That aside, I can't argue with your gut feeling that Trap may not be the man. I'd have some doubts too. On paper he's clearly the guy, but sometimes you've got to go with your instinct.

[ken foree]

I think traps C.V. demans a big wage. Hes said to be on 4 million with Red Bull, why would be come to Ireland for 1 million which I think I heard we are offering?

his age? unfinished business on the international stage? all hypothetical of course...