6 Nations

[Sonic]

The line out was absolutely terrible AGAIN!!!! Have to say same old story in Ireland France games give the french a massive lead and have to fight like fcuk to get back into it in the second and come up short!! And I must say for all the kicking he does O Gara is playing really poorly from open play. His handling today was shocking poor. Countless time he funbled an attack. And add that to Vincent Clerc who is the best winger in the world in my opinion we were terribly unfortunate today tipified by their first try in the second half that came up off Bod and into your mans hands!

[Rovers fan]

o'gara fcuked up about 5 attacks with a poor pass. He isn't finding the touchline with his kicks from hand. There was a programme on rte today, something about the best player for every position in irish rugby history. O'gara was nominated for out half. The clips they showed reminded me of what O'gara's kcking from hand used to be like. He used to be able to kick it in behind the outside backs from anywhere leaving us deep into opposition territory. He doesn't do that anymore.Add to that what used to be an excellent lineout and we were a very good team. Unfortunately those two aspects have dis improved greatly.

[Superhoops]

they were unlucky. Should have kept amongst the forwards in the last move. Jackmans lineout throwing didn't hold up unfortunately. Heaslip made an impact. They just gave france too much of a head start. France lost interest and we could easily have won it in the end. Hooke was right though france are working towards the future we aren't. Buckley got about 4 minutes game time.
Do you mean Reddan?

[rambler14]

Much improved today.
I thought O'Gara was particulary poor today. He threw lots of errant passes which ended Irish moves and his kicks out of hand were right down the throat of the French full back, who just ate the grass today with his orange boots. His attempt at converting Dave Wallace's try was embarrassing.
Next time out just throw Mick O'Driscoll into the pack and were sorted.

[Con-Con]

Ya, Mick made a huge difference in the scrum. It was a great game, much improved hopefully we can win the triple crown again.

[Anto McC]

The triple crown ain't worth **** anymore.

[Rovers fan]

Do you mean Reddan?

no george hook

[pete]

O'Driscoll & Flannery have to start next game. Possibly also Horgan if fit.

O'Sullivan could have won the game if used his bench earlier. What is the point of bring any player (Buckley) with 5 minutes left?

I thought Reddan was the best choice but have mixed opinions now. He has great pace & his break can be deadly but his passing is really poor. Then again it was suggested he keeps the back row forwards honest (they have to cover his breaks) which creates space for the centres.

Was it O'Driscoll who chipped the last ball into the cover?

[beautifulrock]

O'Driscoll & Flannery have to start next game. Possibly also Horgan if fit.

O'Sullivan could have won the game if used his bench earlier. What is the point of bring any player (Buckley) with 5 minutes left?

I thought Reddan was the best choice but have mixed opinions now. He has great pace & his break can be deadly but his passing is really poor. Then again it was suggested he keeps the back row forwards honest (they have to cover his breaks) which creates space for the centres.

Was it O'Driscoll who chipped the last ball into the cover?

no it was Murphy, who went missing for two of Clerc tries as well

[shakermaker1982]

Murphy is not a winger and was exposed big time- Bowe has to come in. He looks a million dollars for Leicester but I cannot remember the last time he played well for us (maybe Scotland in the WC warm up).

Very good second half performance and to be fair we were the better team in the first half but just got sucker punched on the counter. Our scrum has never looked so good but our lineout worried me every time it was our throw in - something that is usually 95% rock solid. I think O'Kelly needs to step aside and I'd be happy with MOD or Cullen coming in to play Scotland.

The bloody French have done us again - I hate us playing them.

[Rovers fan]

no it was Murphy, who went missing for two of Clerc tries as well

I think it was o'gara. Murphy tried to run onto it but didn't get there. Still can't believe he kicked it tbh. If we kept it amongst the forwards the chances are we would have scored a try.

[OneRedArmy]

Good from 1-10 (Jackman's throwing and O'Kelly excepted).

Poor otherwise (though Trimble & Kearney did ok).

We are seriously lacking in pace in the backline. What age is Simon Geogehan these days?

[paul_oshea]

haha! ya bring back simon, if nothing else he can lift someone over his head and throw them back down again...

in fairness eddie made the changes that ppl were saying he should make, and he has been justified they aren't up to it, jackman for example was very poor. People said wallace should be dropped, he was making great yardage on saturday. At the end of the day osullivan cant be held accountable for stupid errors/mistakes. Thats why we lost it on saturday.

[shakermaker1982]

Good from 1-10 (Jackman's throwing and O'Kelly excepted).

Poor otherwise (though Trimble & Kearney did ok).

We are seriously lacking in pace in the backline. What age is Simon Geogehan these days?

we miss bloody Hickie! Fitzgerald is quick but I'm not sure if he's able to make the transition yet.

[joeSoap]

I think it was o'gara. Murphy tried to run onto it but didn't get there. Still can't believe he kicked it tbh. If we kept it amongst the forwards the chances are we would have scored a try. No, it was Murphy who needlessly kicked it away. For the last 25 mins, we reverted to a 'Munster' style game, and it killed the French. If we maintained it, and didn't revert to fancy dan shyte then I have no doubt we would have scored given the position we were in.

Jackman, although very good in the loose, couldn't hit a barn door with a cannonball. There was no pack leader, so all the calls were in disarray, and therefore we lost 5 of our own lineouts. Flannery and O'Connell would have won that game for us on Saturday if they played. Fair play to Mick O'Driscoll....he had a massive game when he came in. Buckley should have been brought in earlier.

All in all, its just more hard luck stories, which to be honest, I'm just about sick of.

[OneRedArmy]

Flannery won't be ready for Scotland due to injury.

Although I think I'd be able to hook against Scotland and we'd still win.

Given the way MO'D played, I'd give him the start against Scotland and bring O'Connell back off the bench. Not need to rush him back as he's been out a long time.

Also, as a couple of the papers identified, there is sweet fa point in having Easterby on the bench. He's a specialist 6 and isn't a impact player and we really could've done with a fresh pair of legs in the last 10 mins as the 3 lads were busted after putting in a great effort.

[pete]

no it was Murphy, who went missing for two of Clerc tries as well

Seen that now. Terrible decision.

Murphy will be dropped from starting team. EOS might keep him on the bench as covers different positions.

Could do with 1 speedster winger - look how many tries Shane Williams gets for Wales on pure speed alone. Heymans also burned Ireland on saturday.

[Bald Student]

Murphy will be dropped from starting team. EOS might keep him on the bench as covers different positions.My guess is that Shaggy will play for Leinster this weekend and start against Scotland if he comes through the match uninjured.

There's no real need for Murphy on the bench as Kearney covers all the same positions (and better) but Eddie's not the type to leapfrog someone like Bowe or Fitzgearld above Murphy in the pecking order. My guess is that Geordan will sit on the bench for 80 mins like Easterby last weekend.

[joeSoap]

no it was Murphy, who went missing for two of Clerc tries as well
Thats a tad harsh on Murphy, as two of the three tries came from turnovers when we were attacking. His running lines would have changed to attacking ones and he would have been more infield as part of whatever move we had at the time. The blindside flanker usually covers the wing position, but Clerc was way too quick for Leamy on the first occasion.

I also believe that once we decided to play the game tight, in the Munster way, Stringer should have been brought on for Reddan. I think we would have won the game if he was on, simply because a back would not have gotten near the ball in the last 5 mins with him marshalling the base of the scrum.

That said, his kicking of the ball at the end was inexcusable. If he is to play for Ireland, then it must be as a full-back, and to be honest, I rather Dempsey at the moment. He does exactly what it says on the tin, and rarely lets you down.

[joeSoap]

My team for Scotland would be:

Dempsey; Bowe, O'Driscoll, Trimble, Kearney; O'Gara, Reddan; Horan, Flannery(if fit) Hayes; O'Callaghan, O'Connell; Leamy, Wallace, Heaslip.

Subs: Luke Fitzgerald, Paddy Wallace, Stringer, Buckley, Jackman, Quinlan, Mick O'Driscoll.

It's probably going to be:

Dempsey; Horgan, O'Driscoll, Trimble, Kearney; O'Gara, Reddan; Horan, Best, Hayes; O'Callaghan, O'Driscoll, Leamy, Wallace, Heaslip.

Subs: Murphy, P.Wallace, Stringer, Buckley, Jackman, Easterby, O'Connell.

[ifk101]

I like reading your posts on the rugby joeSoap - always top drawer.

Now I'm off to copy your fantasy team :D

[OneRedArmy]

To continue joesoaps preferred and probable teams, my preferred would be

Fitzgerald
Bowe
Trimble
O'Driscoll
Kearney

O'Gara
Redden

Horan
Best
Buckley
O'Callaghan
O'Driscoll
Leamy
Jennings
Heaslip

Subs
Healy
Jackman
O'Connell
Wallace
Keane
Sexton
Horgan

The probable team will be as joe's post.

[shakermaker1982]

My line up:

Dempsey
Bowe
BOD
Trimble
Kearney

O'Gara
Reddan

Horan
Jackman -unless Flannery fit
Hayes - Buckley on at 55
O'Callaghan
MOD
Leamy
Wallace
Heaslip

Bench

Buckley
Best
O'Connell
Stringer
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Horgan

[OneRedArmy]

How on earth anyone can pick Jackman is beyond me, unless you are proposing someone else throw the ball in.

He could play as well as Vincent Clerc in the loose and still shouldn't get on the pitch until he sorts his lineouts out. Winning 90% plus of your own throws is crucial in the modern game. Its no conicidence we gained more territory when Jackman went off.

[shakermaker1982]

Best had a shocker the week before. The players pointed out in the post match interviews that it was more to do with the call system going wrong than the actual throw ins - maybe it's BS I don't know but O'Callaghan seemed to indicate that other teams can read our lineout much easier than before.

I'd have Flannery over the two of em anyday of the week. Fingers crossed his hand mends.

[paul_oshea]

plus the french fella only weighed about 14 stone as well, they were throwing him up for everything fierce quick and easy.

[joeSoap]

There's a long running rumour (started by Clive Woodward in the late 90's)that the French bug the hotel rooms of the opoposing teams and also the away dressing room and therefore know the line-out calls and thats why they have so much success on the away teams line-outs when playing at home in Paris. Personally I think its bull sh1t but ther French lineouts away from home are traditionally weaker that when they play at home, so maybe there is something to it....:rolleyes:;)

Niall O'Donovan has to get the finger out regarding the line out. Jackman or Best aren't always to blame when lineouts are lost, but in some cases the throwing is just shoddy. For example on Saturday, we had a lineout 5 metres from their line and Jackman tried to go long...Bonnaire got lifted like he was an O'Brien crane and we got picked off. A simple ball to Donncha at 2 and a maul and we were in...it really is that simple.

[shakermaker1982]

During the last Lions tour didn't Woodward have their 'tactics room' scanned for spy equipment and had the room guarded by bodyguards at all times when not in use? :) fat lot of good it did the end......

what kind of codes do they use? Numbers, names, places? How complicated must it get before everyone gets confused and the lineout implodes?

[Bald Student]

Winning 90% plus of your own throws is crucial in the modern game. Its no conicidence we gained more territory when Jackman went off.
At about the same time the French stopped competing for Irish ball.

[paul_oshea]

How complicated must it get before everyone gets confused and the lineout implodes?


As Gaeilge ;) I blame Munster Irish.

[OneRedArmy]

At about the same time the French stopped competing for Irish ball.Chicken or egg?

Didn't notice that myself. I have however followed Jackmans career through Connaught, Clontarf and now Leinster he can't throw for toffee.

[Bald Student]

Chicken or egg?Whichever comes as a result of the French staying on the ground to defend against a maul forming.

Jackman's throwing isn't great but it's also not as bad as is being made out. We lost one lineout as a result of a bad throw to Heaslip and (I think) 3 more where the throw was OK but the timing was bad between the thrower and jumper, allowing the French to jump in front and rob the throw.

[OneRedArmy]

Whichever comes as a result of the French staying on the ground to defend against a maul forming...or realising they have less chance of picking it off as the throw is better.

FWIW our mauls actually improved towards the end of the game (thus again highlighting the futility of defending lineouts on the ground).

[Bald Student]

...or realising they have less chance of picking it off as the throw is better.

FWIW our mauls actually improved towards the end of the game (thus again highlighting the futility of defending lineouts on the ground).It's a long time since I took part in a lineout but I'm absolutely certain that six men on the ground are better placed to defend a maul than 2 men in the air and 4 men lifting them. At the end of the game Ireland was within 8 and then 5 points of France and the French decided to defend their line rather than trying to steal Irish possession. It's a different calculation of risks for different parts of the game.

I'm not saying this to defend Jackman's throwing but to point out that the situation is more complicated than a simple post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[OneRedArmy]

It's a long time since I took part in a lineout but I'm absolutely certain that six men on the ground are better placed to defend a maul than 2 men in the air and 4 men lifting them. At the end of the game Ireland was within 8 and then 5 points of France and the French decided to defend their line rather than trying to steal Irish possession. It's a different calculation of risks for different parts of the game.

I'm not saying this to defend Jackman's throwing but to point out that the situation is more complicated than a simple post hoc ergo propter hoc.Its fairly well known that there is no way to legally defend a properly constituted maul in the current game and thats why the new IRB rules being applied in the Super 14s allow collapsing the maul.

The only way to stop a maul is by not letting in form, which in a lineout situation involves either getting a man on the deck or tackling the jumper immediately as he lands and before the required numbers are bound in so that a maul is formed.

You can still do this and contest the lineout.

Another one of O'Donovan's wonderful world cup ideas....

[Bald Student]

The only way to stop a maul is by not letting in form, which in a lineout situation involves either getting a man on the deck or tackling the jumper immediately as he lands and before the required numbers are bound in so that a maul is formed.

You can still do this and contest the lineout.I don't agree with everything you have to say about a maul but I'll agree that it's possible to stop one being formed with jumpers in the air but you're much more likely to be successful doing this without anyone jumping since you will have more players available to do it. The French were, correctly, playing a risk minimisation strategy at this point.

That's getting a little away from the topic we were discussing though. We can debate why the French didn't challenge the Irish lineout near the end of the game but the fact that they didn't is, in my mind, more important that the two Irish substitutions that happened around the same time.

None of that should be interpreted to mean that I think Jackman is a good thrower, rather that I don't think that he was the sole cause of our difficulties earlier in the game.

[OwlsFan]

I'm not saying this to defend Jackman's throwing but to point out that the situation is more complicated than a simple post hoc ergo propter hoc.

There was all kinds of flapping going on in the lineouts before he made the throws which we lost. It's the pack leader's call where to throw the ball. After those he went back to O'Callaghan which we won easily. Bad decision making and not Jackman's fault.

[OneRedArmy]

There was all kinds of flapping going on in the lineouts before he made the throws which we lost. It's the pack leader's call where to throw the ball. After those he went back to O'Callaghan which we won easily. Bad decision making and not Jackman's fault.Throwing to the front is not really a viable long-term solution if you want to secure good attacking ball. Front ball narrows the angle of attack by allowing the defending side to cramp you in on the blind side which makes getting the ball to the backs much more difficult.

Neither is cutting the line short a particularly attractive option either as it allows the remaining forwards to pack the defensive line.

[joeSoap]

Throwing to the front is not really a viable long-term solution if you want to secure good attacking ball. Front ball narrows the angle of attack by allowing the defending side to cramp you in on the blind side which makes getting the ball to the backs much more difficult.
Neither is cutting the line short a particularly attractive option either as it allows the remaining forwards to pack the defensive line.
Why would we want to give the ball to our backs late on on Saturday? We murdered the French up front, and their main lineout threat was Bonnaire, who was jumping at the tail. If we secured our ball at the front and mauled we would have got more penalties, possibly 2 tries and caused the French more headaches.

I take on board your points and agree with them when the throw-in is in midfield because you need more options there, but 5 metres out, against a pack that we're destroying...please !!:eek:

[tetsujin1979]

Are there any tickets going for the Scotland game this coming weekend?

[ifk101]

Tommy Bowe to start, replaces Murphy.

http://www.rugby.ie/news/story/?jp=mheysnojsngb&d=new


Should be a comfortable win for us this weekend.... (if we avoid giving away penalties in kickable positions)

[Dr. Ogba]

Tommy Bowe to start, replaces Murphy.

http://www.rugby.ie/news/story/?jp=mheysnojsngb&d=new


Should be a comfortable win for us this weekend.... (if we avoid giving away penalties in kickable positions)

Good move bringing Bowe in. Bad move getting rid of Murphy. I kow he was pretty poor against the French (as he always seems to be!) but he seems to be playing for Ireland with the axe constantly hovering over him. i.e play badly in one game and you're out. Whereas Dempsey seems to be guaranteed his place no matter what.

Now i have nothing against Dempsey but surely its time to give the jersey to Murphy (or even Kearney/Fitzgerald!) and say to him "right you've got x number of games to prove yourself for us" instead of the "play well or you're out" attitude that O'Sullivan seems to have with Murphy.

[OneRedArmy]

At last Eddie realises the importance of form and brings in Ireland's best back this season (admittedly not a huge group of contenders for that honour) as well as rewarding Mick O'Driscoll for some fine form.

Re Murphy, he does seems to be the one that Eddie picks on (I think he's had more than enough chances over the years and lets us down more often than not) but it would be harsh on Dempsey to get rid of him for Murphy, as at least he can defend solidly. Personally I'd look to the future and play Fitzgerald at 15 and inject some pace into the line.

Last chance Saloon for Jackman, with Flannery hopefully coming back for the Wales game. Despite what people have posted earlier, Jackman WAS responsible for 3 out of 5 lineout losses against France by underthrowing the ball (courtesy of analysis by Franno in the Turbine).

[shakermaker1982]

Dempsey without fail is a solid 7 out of 10 every game for Ireland man. Murphy is too unreliable and is prone to errors and missing tackles. I'd go for the steady option every time at 15.

[Soko]

So can we finally put an end to Geordan Murphy's international?

[shakermaker1982]

No - Dempsey is struggling with a hip injury! He has more lives than a cat!

[joeSoap]

Just been told that Dempsey won't make it and Geordan Murphy is in at full-back. Should be confirmed later.

[shakermaker1982]

Surely last chance saloon for him now?

[DmanDmythDledge]

Surely last chance saloon for him now?
Surely he can't be dropped after that performance? Wouldn't be surprised though.

Bowe and O'Gara had excellent games I thought. BOD was quiet again apart from his pass for the second try.

Jackman had a poor throwing game again but Best didn't do too great either when he came on. I'd still prefer Jackman ahead of Best because of his play in the loose. Hopefully Flannery will be fit for the Wales game though.

Good to see O'Connell back, should see his start against Wales hopefully.

England win in Paris- things are after getting very interesting. We'll probably miss out by points difference as usual though.

[OwlsFan]

Question: why do Irish players when they are standing on the edge of a ruck put one hand in the air? I watched the Wales/Italy and France/England games and none of their players do it. :confused: